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Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale

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Unnatural = Nonexistent
    #904390 -

I got in this dumb discussion with someone on another board about 'nature' ....
he was basically saying that anything that an animal does that isn't by instinct is 'unnatural' ....

this post is a compilation of parts of several of my posts along with a conversation I had with someone else, so excuse the choppiness, I'm too lazy to rewrite all this stuff into a mini-essay... but I think you'll get the point
"natural" is a meaningless word.


does it matter whether a behavior is learned or instinctive? it's all processes affecting one another.
are you to say that animals that perform learned behaviors are doing something unnatural?
is learning unnatural?
what is a NATURAL need?
humans evolved forms of social organization, we call it society. it' part of what makes us human. societies evolved to the point that they have, evolution is the *natural* progression of everything. our societies evolved economic systems, art forms, governments, taboos, ideals, medicine, rituals, religion. those aspects are part of such societies and basically define them. they are necessary to what the society is. our technologies evolve to suit the needs of societies. evolution is natural.

who's to say creation of technology is not an instinct of humans, or other animals?
even apes use tools.
who's to say social organization isn't an instinct of humans, or other animals?
apes have it, ants have it.

I cannot concieve of any action that is unnatural because of this.

everything about us makes us human. at what point did the human species become 'unnatural'? it hasn't. it's just evolved, in a few specific aspects, vastly differently from other species.

everything is a result of evolution....even if computers take over the planet it was an inevitable consequence of evolution

you may sayy, "well you're just blurring the lines and making the words meaningless" ... but that's the POINT
everyone acts like what our species does is totally separate from nature and evolution
but it's entirely a result of it
everything is
I think the words came into existence from humans being too arrogant and/or ignorant to understand we're just the same as everything else

naturalists..those that want us to leave cities and live off the land....sure..move to the mountains, create a shit pile, change the fauna around the area, fertilize areas that never had that much fertiliization, wash your clothes in the river and let the scents scare off other animals that drink from the banks..etc..cut down trees, bring in insects that feed off of the shitter and your new plants for food that never existed there before..etc
ridiculous. the 'natural' world, now that we have abandoned it, has sorta evolved to not need us and actually probably couldn't support us anymore




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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/24/02 11:48 AM)

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904411 -

Unnatural = Nonexistent

I agree.
I've argued this to death with ignorant, hippie-wannabe teenagers.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904418 -

In reply to:
Unnatural = Nonexistent



Yup. Sadly, even pagers and Reality TV are products of nature.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904448 -

Yes. Why is it that when a beavers build dams it is considered natural, but when humans do it it is considered unnatural?

Humans cannot be seperated from nature, nothing can be. Everything follows nature's rules. "Nature to be commanded, must be obeyed" (Francis Bacon, I don't think those are his exact words).

Edited by Evolving (09/24/02 12:09 PM)

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904475 -

its not the definition of the word unnatural its the meaning its supposed to represent. sure everything is natural. so if i go and kill 500000 people with a nuclear bomb its natural so its ok. those that argue that humans have developed into an unnatural state have a good point and your stuck on the definition of unnatural.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #904498 -

In reply to:
its not the definition of the word unnatural its the meaning its supposed to represent. sure everything is natural. so if i go and kill 500000 people with a nuclear bomb its natural so its ok. those that argue that humans have developed into an unnatural state have a good point and your stuck on the definition of unnatural.




um.
very dumb post.
no one is asserting that "since everything is natural, everything is ok"
killing 500000 people is not ok, in my book, because who is anyone to say that those 500000 people deserve to die? it's not ok because it's unethical, not because of anything to do with its "naturalness"
also: polluting the planet to all hell can't be deemed "unnatural", but it is not ok, in my book, because it is unhealthy for just about every organism around, and we'll end up killing ourselves, along with other creatures who don't have the ability to defend themselves against extinction... we do. we can use our "oh so unnatural" technology to undo all the damage we've done


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #904503 -

the problem is associating the word "natural" with the word "good"


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: pattern]
    #904510 -

In reply to:
the problem is associating the word "natural" with the word "good"



exactly.
I do not.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904621 -

edward o wilson, a highly reputable ecologist/scientist/biologist believes that our civilazation is bringing on the fastest extinction period ever. :wink:
 


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: CleverName]
    #904776 -

so?
we can fix it with our technolgy, if only everyone would stop worrying about their flat screen tv's and missiles and cutesy angel potholders and put a little effort into cleaning up.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #904801 -

Everything is natural. If we end up blowing up the Earth due to ignorance, that was natural. If the Earth ends up getting sick of our shit and wiping us clean, that was natural.  :wink: 


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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Shroomism]
    #904812 -

Nature and life will unfold as it should. Anyone who thinks that they can control or conquer nature is a fool. Our role as a sentient species is to understand how to properly comply and work with nature to our benefit, if we fail to do so we will go the way of the dodo.

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Sclorch]
    #905105 -

I've argued this to death with ignorant, hippie-wannabe teenagers.

Yeah, but have you argued this with informed, real middle-aged hippies?

Taking on ignorant children in a logical debate - I am proud that you bested them! :tongue: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: ]
    #905111 -

That we voted in George Busch and Busch Lite, tells me that we are indeed, going the way of the dodo.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Swami]
    #905141 -

Ah but remember that most people didn't even vote for Busch Lite. Three cheers for democracy.


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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Swami]
    #905226 -

Quote:
That we voted in George Busch and Busch Lite, tells me that we are indeed, going the way of the dodo.


I'm proud to say that I personally didn't vote for either tweedle dumb or tweedle dumber.  Maybe I'm on the cutting edge of evolution. :cool:

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Swami]
    #905248 -

W. Bush, Busch beer, Bush the band... dude it's a fucking crappiness conspiracy


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #905531 -

The only thing that is natural to me is the light, as we evolve in consciousness you could say we are becoming more natural, a clearer reflection of source.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "



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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #905716 -

"because who is anyone to say that those 500000 people deserve to die?"

Nobody deserves to die. the word natural in this context is referring to a balance or symbiosis and anything that is natural is something that fits into the balance and doesn't destroy it.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Re: Unnatural = Nonexistent [Re: 1stimer]
    #905830 -

Everything balances in nature, just not necessarily the way you think it should. What great perspective do you have that gives you superior knowledge of how nature should balance? To say that humans can destroy the balance of nature is equivalent to saying that humans can destroy the balance of God. What grand arrogance people have to think that humans are capable of ruining that which controls their existence.

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