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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90399 - 10/31/99 01:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, have tried DXM with an ergotamine derivative... I mean, hey, it's still got the ol' indole skeleton in it.
You were correct, VERY synergistic. Much more than the sum of the parts at that dosage. I would suggest caution here the first few times you do it, though. It will kick some ass.
With AMT: it is probably kind of safe, only because AMT is a fairly weak MAOI. But be careful, MAOI's in combination with DXM has known to be fatal!
I would suggest low doses of both.
AMT is still strong enough to make someone stupid enough to use a narcotic go uncoscious for 8+ hours (ie: I know someone who did it).
DMT and 5meoDMT are both MAOI's as well, but to a much smaller extent.


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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90401 - 10/31/99 12:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know if death is fun or not, I've never met anyone who actually lived through it, but I do know that once you've tasted death, you never come back, so maybe it is fun...
j/k
Oleander

------------------
Do you answer questions, or question answers?



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90403 - 10/31/99 03:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds risky, but if you are into that, it is fine with me.

There is a NMDA-blocker found in Amanita Muscaria - ibotenic acid.



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90404 - 11/03/99 05:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, I wasn't sure if ibotenic acid was a NMDA-blocker or not but I kinda figured it was since it acted some what like a dissociative, but I haven't spent much time looking into it. I never thought it to be an interesting drug, but I do plan on researching it more. Stanley, what ergotamine derivative did you take? Just curious, because if it's anything other than LSD/LSA, then I'm interested in more information.

Laters, Youjutsu



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Offlineoldmaverick
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Registered: 11/02/99
Posts: 150
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Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90406 - 11/04/99 07:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

damn,
synergies !
I have tried shrooms with Nitrazepam, which is a mild hypnotic, sometimes called a shadow of LSD here in India (sic)!!
The trip was not altered in any way that i can think of, except that some of the more psychological effects like the mental jitters ( dont know how to descibe that, a feeling of dread, terror apprehension ) seem to be eliminated...
Any people out there know how this thing works, looked up Nitrazepam, but didnt turn up much, would appreciate some info !

------------------
Maverick shroomed@rediffmail.com
=====================
Psychedelia in India....
We arent there yet but ,
We are getting there !!!



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90407 - 11/06/99 08:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well sedative/hypnotic drugs including alcohol will dull down the effects of LSD or any other psychedelic whereas with dissociatives which are considered psychedelics themselves because of the hallucinations that they produce tend to increase the effects of both LSD and other serotonin agonists listed in the first letter. Dissociatives action on the brain is different than the sedative/hypnotic drug you took. Dissociatives are NMDA-blockers/inhibitors and N2O increases the NMDA-blockage, therefore extending the trip. Also, often the type of drug that you mentioned is used to abort the trip rather than make it stronger or last longer.

Laters, Youjutsu



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90408 - 11/06/99 09:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ok I'm curious about something, what other NMDA-blockers/inhibitors are out there, that are not listed here. The only addition to the first post is:

ibotenic acid

Which I have not confirmed, yet. So, please add anything that you can.

-Youjutsu



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90409 - 11/06/99 02:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I have found another NMDA-inhibitor, but I wouldn't rush right out to get some. Conatokins, from the venom of Cone snails found in Australia, is a NMDA-inhibitor and a neurotoxin. Just a little bit of extra info.

Okay, this has been updated because I thought I should provide some sources and a little more info. The information above was obtained from: http://www.uq.edu.au/~ddbfry/venomtypes.html

Also, I have another cool cone snail fact:

"Venom from the magician cone snail, Conus magus, shows promise as a non-addictive pain control 1000 times as powerful as morphine."

From: http://www.aqua.org/animals/species/venom/conesnail.html


Here are some other good cone snail links:
http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=005AD000

http://chemindy.sci.fau.edu/~mari/usscono.html

-PsiliPharm

[This message has been edited by PsiliPharm (edited November 07, 1999).]



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90410 - 11/07/99 10:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, I just found something interesting...

Ibogaine is a NMDA-blocker/antagonist!

Source: http://www.ibogaine.org/lit-nmda.html

This is strange to me since most indoles are 5HT-agonists. Well this brings up an important question, is it both a NMDA-antagonist and a 5HT-agonist or just a NMDA-antagonist? If both, then this would be the IDEAL hallucinogenic drug or close to it. Though, it's effects doesn't show to be very ideal. Well, even if it's not a 5HT-agonist, it would be on the other side of the combination and be combined with the tryptamines which it's MAOI properties make it interesting for this purpose. Taking Ibogaine at hallucinogenic doses is said to be less than pleasant due to it's body load, maybe taking a lower dose of Ibogaine with an 5HT-agonist such as shrooms or DMT will fix that, who knows?

Some Ibogaine-containing plants along with several other Hallucinogenic materials can be obtained from:
http://www.jlfcatalog.com

This message was brought to you from the outer limits of the hyperspatial consciousness of PsiliPharm, where all things hallucinogenic grow wild.



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90411 - 11/07/99 11:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, the previous post about ibotenic acid being a NMDA-blocker looks to be false.

I'm still looking but it shows to be a GABA-agonist, well, Muscimol is. Muscimol is Ibotenic acid's metabolite and they are structurally similar to GABA.

My Source: http://www.erowid.org/plants/amanitas/amanitas_writings4.shtml

I have also seen references to it's actions being much like that of atropine, which has anticholinergic effects. Which it was even called mycoatropine. A little bit of this information can be obtained from:
http://www.erowid.org/plants/amanitas/amanitas_info_ott.shtml

I still haven't seen a single reference to it being a NMDA-blocker, but I'll keep looking. While looking for this information, I came across some references that brought up some other questions. In the previous link there is a reference to a substance called premnazole which is another isoxazole compound like ibotenic acid that is found in two species of Verbenaceae family of plants. Okay, the question is, what two species? It also speaks of a European variety of A. muscaria contained a potentially psychoactive beta-carboline, methyltetrahydrocarboline carboxylic acid (MCTHC; I-methyl-3-carboxyl-tetrahydro-B-carboline) and two other compounds of obscure pharmacology, stizolobic acid and stizolobinic acid (also found in edible seeds of Stizolobium [Mucuna] species), have been isolated in good yield from Amanita pantherina. This to me, brings Isoxazole and Tryptamines closer where before they seemed completely different. It also makes the appearance of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in Amanita citrina and Amanita poryphyria more believable. This reference was found at: http://www.cia.com.au/serendipity/dmt/hoasca.html#tbl4b


Quack, Quack, Quack...

Quackers, PsiliPharm


[This message has been edited by PsiliPharm (edited November 08, 1999).]



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90414 - 11/08/99 12:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I figured that I should provide a better explaination of why sedatives/hypnotics are not effective for enhancing hallucinogenic drugs.

In a previous post, maverick mentions that Nitrazepam was used along with LSD which only removed some of the mental jitters but didn't have any kind of synergistic effect. This is because Nitrazepam is a benzodiazepine and not a NMDA-blocker. Benzodiazepines act on the GABA (gamma aminobutyric acid) like GHB and Ibotenic acid.

"In the meantime, benzodiazepines in current use tend to induce dependence, dull consciousness and impair the intellect. So there's not much chance of radical life-enrichment here."

Source of Information: http://www.biopsychiatry.com/

This site is probably one of my favorite sites because of it has alot of interesting information and links to more information with links to more information and so on.

Well defined is the best way to put it. Check it out!

Laters, PsiliPharm



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90415 - 11/08/99 01:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I remembered a few trip reports in The Lycaeum Trip Report Archive that gave good examples of the NMDA-blocking/5HT-agonist combination.

This first one with DXM and AMT gives a pretty good explaination of the combination:
http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=53

This second one with DXM and Salvia which I don't know how it acts on the brain's receptors but it provides a good metaphor for how the combination works:

"Salvia by itself is like a guitar that goes skittering off on flights of its own that can be hard to follow. DXM is a long, slow, loping bass groove. Putting them together is like anchoring the guitar with the bass, and somehow a whole new sound emerges, almost as if they had created a third instrument."
http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=644

Here are some more trip reports.

Ketamine and DMT: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=104

Ketamine and LSD: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=538

Ketamine, DPT, Peganum harmala, and GHB: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=667

Ketamine and DPT: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=696

Ketamine, LSD, and Marijuana: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=712

Ketamine and MDMA: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=182

Ketamine, DPT, LSD, and GHB: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=690

Ketamine, 5-MeO-DMT, LSD, and GHB: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=647

Ketamine, DMT, LSD, and N2O: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=175

Ketamine, MDMA, and Marijuana: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=574

DXM and LSD: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/trip.report/view_report.cgi?RowID=132

Well, that's about all...there are some other combinations of Ketamine with 2C-B and some with DOB, but since I don't know whether or not they are 5HT-agonists. I figured you could find them yourselves, if your interested. This turned out to be more than a few trip reports, oh well.

Laters, PsiliPharm



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90416 - 11/08/99 03:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, off the subject somewhat. I have found a post on the hive which is very interesting to me. It speaks of halogen-substituted benztropine analogs as being a very potent group of dopamine agonist drugs without the anticholinergic activity which causes the nightmare hallucinations. Well, in a reply to this post, there is a antimuscarinic activity potentiates cocaine-like effects. So, my question is obviously what antimuscarinic drugs are out there? My answer was in the next post. Cocaine has both antimuscarinic and dopamine agonist activity. Also, Benztropine, benzhexol, scopolamine, muscimole, quinuclidinyl benzylate, and I decided to add diphenhydramine (Benadryl), trcyclic antidepressents and probably any other tropine or cocaine analogs are all antimuscarinic or anticholinergic. I love the metaphor this guy uses for these drugs:

"It makes perfect sense that any drug with activity akin to these, when combined with a stimulant activity, when injected in a rat, is gonna result in one freaked-out little rodent, who's going to display some rather barroque reactions to this invasion of his receptors. Its the equivalent to turning his picture of the world on its side while letting the v-hold slip, as someone pushes the fast-forward button."

In another reply, this reference was used:

Mol Pharmacol 1994, v. 45 p. 312-6:
"Dopamine uptake inhibitors had one of three effects on transporter-mediated efflux. Some drugs, in addition to inhibiting uptake, inhibited spontaneous release of dopamine. Drugs in this class included mazindol, GBR-12935, bupropion, nomifensine, and benztropine. All of the drugs with the potential for abuse by humans either enhanced release (methamphetamine, amphetamine, and ethanol) or had no effect on release (phencyclidine, cocaine, and WIN 35,428). The ability to define classes of uptake blockers based on their effects on human transporter-mediated dopamine efflux may lead to the identification of structural features of the transporter that differentiate abused from nonabused drugs."

This is a very interesting quote because it confuses the hell out of me, which means, it's late and I need to go to bed. I'll finish this later when I can think better.

But, before I leave, I want to put out this question: Does anticholinergic and antimuscarinic mean the same thing? If so, would atropine and other anticholinergic drugs decrease the effectiveness of ibotenic acid? Or, does ibotenic acid and atropine have the same basic action on these receptors? That's all, for now.

Link to The Hive: http://lycaeum.org/~strike/cgi-bin/ubb_cgi/Ultimate.cgi

Laters, PsiliPharm

[This message has been edited by PsiliPharm (edited November 08, 1999).]



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OfflineoDin
Registered: 08/13/99
Posts: 5,789
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90417 - 11/08/99 05:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It appears from my Basic and Clinical Pharmacology textbook that muscarinic receptors are a type of acetylcholine receptor. Nicotinic receptors were the other type of direct acting agonist. Damn brings back college memories.

They make a scopolamine patch for sea sickness(Transderm-Scop) I wonder what it would be like to strap one and eat some shrooms? It would be a sustained slow release.

Ibotinic acid wasn't listed in my textbook-so sad.



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90418 - 11/08/99 05:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sore wa yosou n desu... Shite kudasai, soshite itte kudasai. Omoroi yo.

------------------
The caterpillar said, "One side will make you grow bigger, and the other side will make you grow smaller."


"One side of what? The other side of what?" thought Alice to herself.


"Of the mushroom," said the caterpillar.


Alice looked at the caterpillar, trying to make out which were the two sides, as it was perfectly round.



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90419 - 11/08/99 09:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Dimenhydrinate (Dramamine) is also used for motion-sickness and has also been used for "recreational purposes" and with the same type of effects of the anticholinergic drugs listed above, so I assume it's action on the brain is much in the same. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I would also add something of another topic. If anyone knows of any other animals/insects who's venom, body parts, etc has any psychoactive properties besides Bufo sp., please post it.

Laters, PsiliPharm

[This message has been edited by PsiliPharm (edited November 08, 1999).]



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90420 - 11/10/99 01:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In the "Ayahuasca Substrate" post, I discussed a method of adding certain compounds to the substrate of Psilocybe mushrooms and then the mushroom contains some of that compound. Therefore, if you were to put a NMDA-blocker into the substrate of a 5-HT producing mushroom, you would be creating a mushroom with synergistic contents. Interesting idea, will it work? You tell me.
http://www.shroomery.org/ubbnoncgi/Forum4/HTML/000384.html

-PsiliPharm



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90421 - 06/13/00 08:56 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ketamine/LSD is a wonderful combo for the *experienced*.

I have tried this once, and it was probably my biggest experience ever.

I ate 2 hits of a very clean LSD, which wasn't very strong on the other hand. Both probably equalled something like 180-200 ug. Waited for the pick, at +3h, then i snorted 100 mg of powdered Ketamine.

In a couple of minutes I had no recollection of having a body, a history, a life, or that there was a planet called Earth. I was just a floating consciousness, without form or identify, expanding to the size of the universes.

The whole experienced was done in a controlled set, i had a playlist ready (with Future Sound of London's Lifeform, highly reccomendable to this combo), and music and I became the same thing. Music was not sound anymore, it was physical and ambient.

I have a few recollections which include being in a digital forest, and later creating fully immersible realities, through some sort of pannel interface, that i created too. The realities were much like VR.

in 50 mins - 1 hour, i started to slowly reconnect to my body. for the next 2 hours to walk, move, pick things, talk, etc, i had to send orders to my body, for i wasnt entirely inside it. It was like commanding a robot through remote control, except there was no remote control, it was a thought based control.

Very interesting combination.

I wonder if anyone ever tried Ketamine and Salvia divinorum.

------------------
o0o neuroglider o0o



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Anonymous

Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90422 - 06/13/00 08:57 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

test


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OfflineoOjonahOo
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Registered: 02/04/00
Posts: 345
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Dissociatives and Tryptamines
    #90423 - 06/14/00 01:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

i've never tried ketamine, but dxm and salvia are VERY synergistic. Also, it does inhibit the cough reflex like it's supposed to, allowing you to really take in massive quantities of smoke at one time.

Once while on 1000mg dxm I took 2 hits of cannibis/salvia mix. Everything turned into a cartoon. Also, I find that low doses of dxm greatly facilitate "breaking through" with salvia. While on 300mg, I wasn't feeling much but I had my first salvia breakthrough after smoking half a bowl. It was amazing.



--------------------
Ultimate Mycodirectory v4.0


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