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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5847362 - 07/11/06 05:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Found that link for the text I posted, I think.

Biosynthesis of psilocybin. II. Incorporation of labelled tryptamine derivatives.
Agurell S, Nilsson JL.
Acta Chem Scand. 1968;22(4):1210-8.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=5750023&dopt=Abstract

It's too old for me to get it online through my journal service. :frown:
I'll probably order it from the library when I get a chance.


> I've never seen any evidence that tryptamines or tryptaphans increase potency in any way

Here ya go!  This is the classic paper on tryptamine increasing psilocybin levels.

Planta Medica 55 (1989) page 249 - 250 Jochen Gartz
BIOTRANSFORMATION OF TRYPTAMINE IN FRUITING MYCELIA OF PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS.
Tryptamine Cubensis


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #5847509 - 07/11/06 06:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The Gartz paper is very interesting and sheds some light on the biosynthetic pathway.

Adding tryptamine increased the psilocin content many fold, but actually seemed to decrease the amount of psilocybin. They speculated that low phosphate concentrations in the substrate may have prevented the psilocin from being phosphorylated into psilocybin more.

My conclusions are that...

1. Tryptophan is too highly regulated to cause much if any increase in psiloc(yb)in.

2. TDC supplementation could be a way to increase production. Genetic transformation would be another way to increase TDC and the work has already been done in other organisms and the same procedure could be replicated in fungi.

3. Tryptamine supplementation is the next logical step and has been proven to increase psilocin.

4. Tryptamine supplementation increases the psilocin, but then the phosphorylation to psilocybin becomes the limiting step.

5. Phosphate content of the substrate could be a way to regulate the psilocin/psilocybin ratio. Otherwise phosphorylase activity becomes the limiting step after tryptamine and/or TDC have been increased.

6. Undernose's report of no marked increase in potency could be due to an insufficient concentration of tryptamine or the fact that the additional psilocin may not have survived long enough to be bioassayed.

7. The phosphate content of the substrate's effect on psilocybin/psilocin ratios merits further research and study.

8. This might be a good place to start...
The relationship of carbon and nitrogen nutrition of Psilocybe baeocystis to the production of psilocybin and its analogs.
Lloydia. 1969 Mar;32(1):66-71.
Leung AY, Paul AG.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...l=pubmed_docsum

Hopefully they have something to say about phosphates too.


> Throw in ideas!... something!... it's getting lonely in here!

Don't be discouraged if this thread moves slowly. It's generated many hours worth of reading and journal requests. People could easily just start rambling on without any substance and this would turn into another one of THOSE threads.


-FF


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OfflineUnderNose
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #5850399 - 07/12/06 12:35 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
6. Undernose's report of no marked increase in potency could be due to an insufficient concentration of tryptamine or the fact that the additional psilocin may not have survived long enough to be bioassayed.





The quote of mine before about potency was about some z-strain mushrooms that were grown using coffee grounds, NO Acacia\tryptamine were added.
I have done a test grow with and without coffee and there appeared to be no difference except for growth speed, time to pinning, flush recovery time.

The mushrooms that I have just grown using Acacia bark & leaves have yet to be consumed.


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: UnderNose]
    #5852764 - 07/12/06 11:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Tried looking around for Biosynthesis of psilocybin. II. Incorporation of labelled tryptamine derivatives but, I wasn't able to locate it. Would love to hear what you find inside. :smile:

As far as research goes, went back to work today... I'll probably pick back up on my next day off, have been pulling 14 hour shifts lately on top of my nightmare of a schedule. Not happy about it.

See ya'll soon :laugh:


--------------------
:~:~:~:~{ * }~:~:~:~:{ * }:~:~:~:~{ * }~:~:~:~:

All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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OfflineLynxRufus
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5860003 - 07/15/06 12:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/files/06-25/113052244-Weird_Z.jpg

This should have been cloned and sent to workman to hybridize with his pe, lol.


Edited by LynxRufus (07/15/06 12:14 AM)


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OfflineLynxRufus
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5860025 - 07/15/06 12:21 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Acinaxuz said:
Well in terms of emotions yea... The emotional connection is more for giggles--but taking into account that tryptamines are present in mushrooms and they effect moods shows that we also process them as tryptamines and the results are distorted.

But by loose definition a neuron is merely a cell that processes and transmits information. (Looked on wiki, just to make sure I wasn't completely lost) Considering that nerves/nerve cells play a huge role in the effects of the body, why is the same not true for processing and transmitting information in mushrooms?--Mycelium growth is stimulated by natural chemical reactions and something promotes production of potent results.

I don't really find it far fetched that there is something to that theory Maybe not by the same chemicals, but taking hofmann's research into account, there could indeed be a connection.




:shitstorm:


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Invisiblecloudtop
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: LynxRufus]
    #5896390 - 07/25/06 01:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Any recent research or consideration of the topic? It'll take me a while to catch up (and I'm certainly amateurish in my researcher as well as mycology), but this topic is pretty fascinating.

In further researching TDC I came across some information pointing to P5P (pyridoxal 5-phosphate, co-enzyme form of B6) as an intermediate in the enzymatic metabolic pathways. I suspect supplementation w/ P5P could also increase TDC as an indirect path towards endogenous tryptamine increase.

Still have to figure out by what means excessive endogenous tryptamine becomes a limiting factor in successful fruiting.


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Offlineboomsaway
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: cloudtop]
    #9947452 - 03/10/09 08:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

we should open this back up ive found new sources of l-tryptaphan in easier digestable form maybe but without legal cultivators this amazing research will go overlooked... time for my own work on this i suppose


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So, smoking pot = "child endangerment." Storming a home with guns, then firing bullets into the family pets as a child looks on = necessary police procedures to ensure everyone's safety.  -Radley Balko


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: boomsaway]
    #9951573 - 03/11/09 02:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Let this tryptophan supplementation BS die already!

#1  Tryptophan is highly regulated in all organisms.  Adding more won't increase the amount in the organism.

#2  Tryptophan is not taken up from the environment at any significant level.

#3  The small amount of tryptophan that does make it into the organism is not incorporated into psilocin!


These are well known and well studied facts, citations for all of this have been provided several times before.  If you want to supplement with something tryptamine is about your only reasonable option.


-FF


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Offlineboomsaway
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #10088440 - 04/01/09 06:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

in my mind it would only really help on a large scale for mycleium extractions, since it will hinder fruiting, your probably better off just fruiting normally


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So, smoking pot = "child endangerment." Storming a home with guns, then firing bullets into the family pets as a child looks on = necessary police procedures to ensure everyone's safety.  -Radley Balko


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #10093147 - 04/02/09 11:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Quote:

fastfred said:
Let this tryptophan supplementation BS die already!

#1  Tryptophan is highly regulated in all organisms.  Adding more won't increase the amount in the organism.

#2  Tryptophan is not taken up from the environment at any significant level.

#3  The small amount of tryptophan that does make it into the organism is not incorporated into psilocin!


These are well known and well studied facts, citations for all of this have been provided several times before.  If you want to supplement with something tryptamine is about your only reasonable option.


-FF



Agreed.  This has nothing to do with advanced mycology.  It's a pipe dream that doesn't work and is only a distraction.
RR


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