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OfflineAcinaxuz
In SomnisVeritas.

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 231
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Time to Think! (Tryptamines)
    #5840949 - 07/10/06 01:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I've read a lot of posts over time regarding the use of tryptamines in substrate, and being that I'm a non-grower in a legally restrictive country and am very unlikely to pick up the habit in order to experiment, I thought I could strike up a good conversation regarding the idea. Either way, I find this all extremely interesting and input is encouraged! The mood relation is just too cute.

When I think of tryptamine, I automatically relate it to serotonin; blame it on the 30 page paper for extra-credit. Which leads me to a somewhat non-theory, put a smile on your face wonder, do our mushies have feelings?!  :dancingshroom:

Serotonin in humans, I bet you've seen the commercials, is generally related to depression. Serotonin being the "happy making" chemical... "Don't do too much E, you'll use all of your serotonin!"

The truth is serotonin's main duties are to regulate temperature and sleep cycles, (and moods!). The point is, serotonin is a neurotransmitter in humans, the same way that psilocin is a neurotransmitter in mushrooms, and resulting trips are basically the distorted communication.

I've recently been reading a bit on Dr. Albert Hofmann and his research on psilocybe mushrooms. Here's a  link you can read over that summarizes pretty well. In short, he made the relation between serotonin and psilocin acting in similar ways, because they are separated by only one hydroxy molecule, and a connection that the mushroom is a "mirror image" of the way our brain works.

When a cultivator provides dietary supplements of tryptophan or tryptamines by addition to the substrate, they convert it into their version of serotonin resulting in "Happy Shrooms"! Not only do they frolic in bliss, this also strengthens the mushroom itself in turn not failing due to severe weather changes, and stronger development cycles. So I think everyone up to this point agrees that tryptamine/tryptophan additions couldn't be a bad thing.

Being tryptamines are actually chemicals such as serotonin and psilocin, it makes sense that the mushrooms would benefit more from tryptophan than tryptamine, in the same way a trip would benefit more from psilocin rather than psilocybin, more to break down, and the ability to break it down in the body without it being "wasted".

But I question, if tryptophan in humans leads to sedation (hence the use in sleep aids and anxiety) could the use of tryptophan affect the fruits responding less to environmental changes, or protecting itself against contamination (hence the severity of contams in experimentation thus far.) when operating in less than sterile conditions, or has most of the experimentation been done with tryptamines? The difference to me would say that the mushroom would benefit more from the tryptophan than the tryptamine on a development level because tryptamine is equal to psilocin.

I've also seen reports of super speedy jars and casings with the use of tryptamines, which leads me to make the relation between heightened serotonin (tryptamine) levels (euphoria and heightened arousal) to the mating of spores. Is this in essence allowing the mushroom to "trip" in the same way that we ingest tryptamines and have a resulting trip? Being that the fruits are it's main source of reproduction, how does this effect things such as pinset? How about the spores that are produced, would they be better equipped to stand up to the odds of reproducing resulting in a hearty strains? Would the spores have better or worse storage viability?

In theory, the mushroom would operate similarly to the human brain in producing serotonin--In that, a lower amount of protein/tryptophan in your diet will allow more production of serotonin than will a diet too high in protein/tryptophan. Which somewhat points to tryptamine being the better of the two additives... but we're all clever in finding "make-do" changes.

Most of the posts I've read usually end with "How do I get some of that?!" with a lot of talk regarding the legality of obtaining it.

Tryptophan in theory could be used and it would be converted, and as a matter of fact, THEY ARE! Several substrates have additions of things such as Oyster Shells, whole wheat, brown rice... these are ALL tryptophans, and they all are "brain food".

I've compiled a list and I'd like to debate the addition of these into substrate, starting as the base ingredient to ensure of course proper balance, I've stuck to ones easiest to convert into a cultivation situation, but feel free to add your own additions. (Fruits should be finely ground or chopped, and because of water content maybe even dried.)

Oats (Regular cereal oats)
Spinach
Banana
Figs
Dates
Blueberries
Oyster Shells
Seaweed
Yeast
Avacado
Wheat Germ
Micro algae like chlorella spirulina
Flaxseed
Collard Greens
Brewers Yeast



Vitamin B3(niacin) would also be a probable addition since it too assists in serotonin synthesis AND refined carbohydrates should be avoided because these drain B vitamins.

My theory on why the tomato thing didn't work for most, and reflected stimulated growth and a lot of contams for others is that tomatoes aren't a source of tryptophan or tryptamine.  They actually contain tyramine which in turn produces norepinephrine, which STIMULATES the brain. Stimulants in most cases aren't good for you because they lead to mutating cells (hence nicotine causing suicidal cells and increased reproduction etc.) so the introduction of a stimulant to mycelium was increased jar speed, but, in all came out lacking.

Some experimentation (where it's legal of course) should also be done on amounts versus the additions because as stated above, if it's over-done in human consumption, the body slows the production of serotonin due to the over ample amount and it's then discarded rather than stored. This being said (look on wikipedia under tryptophan--turkey.) that it is more readily taken into the body when overloaded or balanced with carbohydrates, it then in theory, stores it for conversion into serotonin.

So what do I want? To know if I'm on to something, of course! The proper balance of carbohydrates (to fill the mushie up forcing the mushie to store the tryptophan for conversion to psilocin) would theoretically result it higher potency.

OTC Fiber mixtures?

What are your thoughts?


--------------------
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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


Edited by Acinaxuz (07/10/06 03:13 AM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz] * 1
    #5841241 - 07/10/06 03:39 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> The point is, serotonin is a neurotransmitter in humans, the same way that psilocin is a neurotransmitter in mushrooms

You first have to have neurons in order to have neurotransmitters.


-FF


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #5841270 - 07/10/06 03:59 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well in terms of emotions yea... The emotional connection is more for giggles--but taking into account that tryptamines are present in mushrooms and they effect moods shows that we also process them as tryptamines and the results are distorted.

But by loose definition a neuron is merely a cell that processes and transmits information. (Looked on wiki, just to make sure I wasn't completely lost) Considering that nerves/nerve cells play a huge role in the effects of the body, why is the same not true for processing and transmitting information in mushrooms?--Mycelium growth is stimulated by natural chemical reactions and something promotes production of potent results.

I don't really find it far fetched that there is something to that theory Maybe not by the same chemicals, but taking hofmann's research into account, there could indeed be a connection.


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5841313 - 07/10/06 04:37 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe you'll be interested in this...

Code:

Incorporation of Labelled Precursors into Psilocybin
-----------------------------------------------------

"Dilution"
(Spec. activity of precursor/
Precursor introduced spec. activity of psilocybin)
------------------------------------------------------
L-Tryptophan-H^3 132
Tryptamine-C^14 33
N-Methyltryptamine-H^3 2
N,N-Dimethyltryptamine-C^14 31
Psilocin-H^3 6
DL-4-OH-Tryptophan-H^3 >500
------------------------------------------------------

The results (Table) show that 4—OH-tryptophan in contrast to tryptophan
(I) does not function as a precursor. Tryptamine (II) which is readily
formed from tryptophan by P. cubensis (3) serves as a better precursor of
psilocybin than tryptophan. N—Methyltryptamine (III) is a still better
progenitor of psilocybin but N,N-dimethyltryptamine (IV) is rather poorly
incorporated as judged from the dilution figures. However, if the poor
absorption of this compound by the fungus (less than 5%) is taken into
account, the high dilution factor does not make it an unlikely
intermediate. Psilocin (V) is effectively converted into psilocybin.
4-Hydroxytryptamine—C^14 is also incorporated into psilocybin but the
introduction of this compound led to the formation of one or two other
minor products not normally detectable in the cultures. Thus, it may be
questioned if this route via 4-hydroxytryptamine is normally occuring in
the fungus.



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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #5841325 - 07/10/06 04:53 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ooooh! Thanks! Could you throw me a link?

New thought direction in process... I'll post back later :smile:


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5841417 - 07/10/06 06:56 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I found why Tryptophan won't work...
It inactivates the enzyme needed to join Chorismate and Glutamine.


Quote:

Feedback inhibition (or end product inhibition) is a mechanism for the inhibition of preformed enzymes that is seen primarily in the regulation of whole biosynthetic pathways, e.g. pathways involved in the synthesis of the amino acids. Such pathways usually involve many enzymatic steps, and the final (end) product is many steps removed from the starting substrate. By this mechanism, the final product is able to feed back to the first step in the pathway and to regulate its own biosynthesis.

In feedback inhibition, the end product of a biosynthetic pathway inhibits the activity of the first enzyme that is unique to the pathway, thus controlling production of the end product. The first enzyme in the pathway is an allosteric enzyme. Its allosteric site will bind to the end product (e.g. amino acid) of the pathway which alters its active site so that it cannot mediate the enzymatic reaction which initiates the pathway. Other enzymes in the pathway remain active, but they do not see their substrates. The pathway is shut down as long as adequate amounts of the end product are present. If the end product is used up or disappears, the inhibition is relieved, the enzyme regains its activity, and the organism can resume synthesis of the end product. Thus, if a E. coli bacterium swims out of a glucose minimal medium into milk or some other medium rich in growth factors, the bacterium can stop synthesizing any of the essential metabolites that are made available directly from the new environment.

One of the most intensely studied bacterial pathways is the pathway of tryptophan biosynthesis (Figure 3). The pathway of tryptophan biosynthesis is regulated by feed back inhibition. Tryptophan is the effector molecule for allosteric enzyme a. When the end product of the pathway (tryptophan) attaches to enzyme a, the enzyme is inactive and can no longer join glutamine and chorismic acid into anthranilate. If tryptophan is disjoined from the enzyme the pathway is resumed, and tryptophan synthesis will continue. Tryptophan biosynthesis is also regulated at a genetic level by the processes of enzyme repression (below) and attenuation.

Note: In the case of feedback inhibition (above), the signal molecule, tryptophan, is a negative effector of Enzyme a in the pathway of tryptophan biosynthesis, because when it binds to Enzyme a, it inactivates the enzyme. In enzyme repression (below) tryptophan is a signal molecule that acts as a positive effector of the trp repressor protein because when it binds to the repressor it activates the protein, so that it binds to the trp DNA.




In simple terms it just means that because tryptophan is produced by the mushie for use in "feedback inhibition" life cycles. Because it's made by the mushie for a specific purpose, adding more is not going to speed up production, but result in less production of that chemical because there is already a good supply on hand.

We instead should be looking toward the enzyme TDC or Tryptophan decarboxylase (breaks down tryptophan into tryptomine, by increasing this enzyme psilocin production will be higher. Increasing tryptophan does nothing more than substitute what the mushie produces on it's own, saves its energy and continues with the substitute.

My guess is during the creation of tryptophan the enzyme altered by the mushroom produces something else needed in development, the mushie doesn't have it, development is slowed or halted, and this leads to increased contams.

So then this would mean tryptamine is readily absorbed in contrast to the conversion of tryptophan?

If more Tryptophan decarboxylase were to be introduced in theory the mush would the produce more tryptamine...

Still thinking, and commentary/additions are still appreciated!


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5841442 - 07/10/06 07:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Theory: Substrates containing smaller levels of tryptophan increase potency by minimal amounts, where tryptamine would lend a better increase. When adding TDC it would process not only the produced tryptophan into tryptamine, but, also process added tryptophan.

The Madagascar periwinkle (Catharanthus roseus) contains high amounts of TDC--if incorporated into substrate in whole form, without isolating and extracting the enzyme, what do you think the chances would be of heightened potency? Would the TDC be absorbed? Would the less beneficial enzymes pose an issue?

Thoughts?


--------------------
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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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OfflineAcinaxuz
In SomnisVeritas.

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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5841446 - 07/10/06 07:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

omgf--I've been researching for close to 8 hours, non-stop. My ass hurts.


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5844258 - 07/10/06 10:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> Ooooh! Thanks! Could you throw me a link?

Sadly no. I asked the original poster for a link, but got no reply. I OCRd this from the pic of it that he posted. It was from a thread on the same topic. I OCRd and edited it to exactly what was there though, so you won't find anything more. You could probably find the paper with a little research.

> Theory: Substrates containing smaller levels of tryptophan increase potency by minimal amounts

That is my conclusion. Tryptophan is highly regulated so any increase from adding it would be minimal.

As far as the other questions, your guess is as good as mine. They would be interesting experiments to try. Assuming you had some periwinkle, it would be easy to chop some up into the substrate or make an extract.

TDC activity is the key element from my understanding. Tryptamine has been show to significantly increase psilocybin, so everything points directly to TDC. Perhaps precursors to TDC would be useful. But I assume those precursors would simply be amino acids, also all highly regulated.

Genetics is the key. Increasing TDC activity will probably only be achieved through GM or an advanced breeding program.


-FF


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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #5844270 - 07/10/06 10:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, you might be interested in this little diagram I created...




-FF


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #5844797 - 07/11/06 12:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phenotypic Effects of TDC Expression
T0 and T1 tobacco plants accumulating TDC in the chloroplast showed a striking phenotype. One or 2 weeks before the flower buds developed, small necrotic areas appeared on the surface of older leaves (Fig. 5A). With the onset of the opening of fully developed flower buds, the lesions increased in number and size in the lower and middle leaves, whereas younger leaves showed only small necrotic areas at the leaf edges. At the end of the flowering, most of the leaf surface was necrotic, and strong deformation was apparent in the lower and middle leaves (Fig. 5, B and C). These symptoms were observed only in plants expressing chloroplast-targeted TDC and not in plants expressing TDC in the cytosol or ER. In addition, within the group of plants expressing chloroplast-targeted TDC, only those shown to accumulate high levels of TDC and tryptamine displayed symptoms, indicating a correlation between symptom severity and the level of enzyme and product.
T0 plants with necrotic leaves were fully fertile and produced seeds that were used to generate T1 plants that showed the same phenotype displayed by T0 plants and no significant reduction of fertility.




(I found this on a .gov site, pub med central, no spaces--google it if interested.)

Over-running the enzyme and it resulting in necrotic spots makes sense in literal ways, but the chemical reaction is beyond me. I'm thinking that if plant is overloaded with TDC, it then begins attacking itself due to limited supply of proteins (or needed addition to complete synthesis).

The same indeed could be true in mushrooms, applying the same logic it could eat "itself" to produce psilocin. I wonder if there's anything to this theory when it comes to hollow stems? There is a strain that is known for hollow stems--maybe it's because there is an overage of TDC. Has anyone attempted growing that strain (can't think of it at the moment) on heightened levels of tryptophan? (Oyster Shells, Seaweed, B vit additions etc, how did it perform on poo?) A large supply in theory would feed the enzymes. Could it actually be an over supply of enzyme we're still stuck with the same issue of providing abundant tryptamine to feed the need. Damn, I can't win for losin.

Ok, so in theory, a source of tryptamine AND a source of TDC could be incorporated for sturdier results.

Personally, I say stick with one thing at a time... back to the drawing board.

(ps fred--thanks for the replies, it really helps the thought process, keeps me grounded :grin: )


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5845219 - 07/11/06 01:59 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Tryptamine has been shown to cause deformed fruits and increased abhorts. I think the process would be the same in tobacco plants. It's probably the excess tryptamine and not the TDC causing the necrosis.

What's interesting is the difference in chloroplast and non-chloroplast targeted TDC. They must have screwed around with transforming chloroplast DNA?

I was looking for the paper you cited and found this...

Effects of over-expression of strictosidine synthase and tryptophan decarboxylase on alkaloid production by cell cultures of Catharanthus roseus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...l=pubmed_docsum

So it seems that they've already engineered organisms to overexpress TDC! That would save a ton of work if someone wanted to do this with fungi! They used transformation via agrobacterium. Surprisingly I've read that you can also use agrobacterium transformation on fungi!

I wonder if they filed a voucher strain of their transformed agrobacterium? If they did you could just order that and culture some of it with your target fungi. Then you'd have fungi transformed to overexpress TDC! Amazing!

> Ok, so in theory, a source of tryptamine AND a source of TDC could be incorporated for sturdier results.

The level of tryptamine would be almost entirely regulated by the amount of TDC. So if you had the TDC it would produce all the necessary tryptamine.

> (ps fred--thanks for the replies

No, thank YOU. While looking for the article you cited, which I never did find, I found a bunch off cool stuff. I'm now rethinking the psilocybin biosynthetic pathway! The one I have is just way too simplistic. It's based on old research that was never confirmed. It was just an author's theory anyway. I'm thinking it goes by a more serotonish route now. I never would have got to thinking about it again if it wasn't for your post. 5 shrooms for you!

I've got a lot of reading and research to do now! I'll be sure to post my conclusions.


-FF


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: fastfred]
    #5845804 - 07/11/06 06:10 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This is all so amazingly interesting...
I'm so glad I'm not a lone book junkie!  Check this out...

Quote:

Because endogenous TDC activity was not detected in the present study or in previous studies in tobacco, the biosynthesis of tryptamine in infiltrated leaves transiently expressing targeted TDC was used as a direct evidence of in vivo enzyme function. Tryptamine levels in infiltrated leaves were measured using a fluorometric assay (Sangwan et al., 1998), and the results (fluorescence intensity per gram of fresh weight leaf material) are shown in Figure 2. Leaves transiently expressing chloroplast-targeted TDC showed a fluorescence intensity of tryptamine approximately 1.5-, 5-, and 72-fold higher than those expressing TDC in the cytosol, in the ER, or the background levels of control leaves infiltrated with nonrecombinant Agrobacteria, respectively (Fig. 2). Nevertheless, tryptamine fluorescence in leaves transiently expressing cytosolic or ER-targeted TDC was approximately 48.5- or 13.5-fold higher than the background signal of control leaves, respectively (Fig. 2).




Up until now, it hasn't dawned on me that tryptamines fluorescence is a factor here, and a pretty big one.  Jelly fish utilize tryptamine fluorescence for signals in body signals, I know you've seen pictures and movies on discovery of jellies lighting up! This is it, the communication... significant evidence, although not direct, that psilocin is indeed similar in function to serotonin! I shall keep looking!

Furthermore, this is where the idea of the glowing shroom originates! Lets say for a moment that an extremely tryptamine intense mushroom were eating itself evenly as a process of it's own death, would the quite active tryptamines show through the flesh?

We communicate through fiber optics, in theory, we can not produce what is not already capable by nature. Technology merely mimics the outcome. Fiber optics in a network of mycelium? You bet your ass, and I'm willing to bet once mating and colonizing begin, cycle control would default to psilocin/psilocybin. In light of this, I have a general curiosity toward psilocybin not being the precurser to psilocin, being that the bonding of molecular structure would seem to store psilocin. Of course this is all broad speculation, but, if "fiber optic" communication is represented in function, then psilocin is the "substrate(?)" for other cellular processes/combinations/reactions.

Or, what about the blue bruising? When we bruise it's because blood vessles are ruptured. When blue bruising happens with cubensis it's because the "cells" are ruptured. In repairing a bruise or open wound in human tissue, platelets(sp?) are bound to clot the area. I am starting to wonder if psilocybin is responsible in some way for repairing damage to the "nerve". If psilocybin is set up to bond to psilocin, which I'm not sure about completely, and psilocin is indeed the conductor of communication or the fiber optics, would it be illogical to gather that psilocybin would be a means of repair as one of it's primary functions? Maybe it bonds with a chemical from the outside as well to seal the barrier? In addition to regulating temperatures and cycles? 

And what of light for pinning? An alternate light source could have potential to communicate with "light" communication already in place, which in turn would signal pinning (and to factor in photosynthesis in plants for good measure)?

Drawing again from the serotonin reference, serotonin regulates temperature and sleep patterns, which is an essential process for us to develop continuously--it keeps our cycles--therefore, it could also very well regulate growth cycles in mushrooms.  Research for that would point to the reports that the mycelium colonated at great speeds, and the production of dwarf but mature fruits leads me to the same conclusion.  What do you think?

Theory: the more psilocin produced the faster the fruits development cycles, but I'm unsure if it would manifest in physical appearance in all cases.

This being said, I find it interesting that some of the more potent fruits, are also the fastest in development cycles--(I'll read through the growlog forum and see what I can come up with to see if I can't debunk that assumption)--though I realize this is not true across the board due to different substrates and sizes of mushrooms, it would be an interesting experiment to see the rate of growth comparison based on lab studies of psilocin content by strain.

Do you have growlogs that would serve a good reference by chance? I figure if we can determine growth speed based on psilocin levels (or the lack there of) we'd be in a better debunking boat. The faster things are logically debunked, the more we know for sure and I think that would put us in the clear and on level ground for research on TDC's increase in speed.

I'm sure strain comparison is quite common on like substrates--anyone that has strain comparison notes on same substrate, please send them my way!

NEAT!

Quote:

What's interesting is the difference in chloroplast and non-chloroplast targeted TDC. They must have screwed around with transforming chloroplast DNA?




I asked myself that same question, and I came up with a different answer.  By assumption (and pure speculation), if they used TDC from another plant, not natural to the current plant, it would work similarly to when someone eats psilocin/psilocybin, it attempts to connect where seritonin did. What if an enzyme, natural to the tobacco, first broke it down and then rendered it vulnerable to attaching to another effector? I'll be looking out for something like this as I read along, but I haven't found a sure fire link to support that just yet--though, I assume it must insenuate it somehow, being that I've gathered the idea... lol That's my story and I'm stickin to it!

Would be supported here:
Quote:

Note: In the case of feedback inhibition (above), the signal molecule, tryptophan, is a negative effector of Enzyme a in the pathway of tryptophan biosynthesis, because when it binds to Enzyme a, it inactivates the enzyme. In enzyme repression (below) tryptophan is a signal molecule that acts as a positive effector of the trp repressor protein because when it binds to the repressor it activates the protein, so that it binds to the trp DNA.




>>edit<< Did a lot of re-reading--first link, next post--poses better clarification! >>edit<<

I'm so glad that this drive for information is up and running! I can't wait to see some real results from all of this hard to come by information! I am a firm believer in the medicinal value of mushrooms, and seemingly throughout history almost every culture welcomed them, except for us... think of the benefits this could hold for medicine sake.

Ok, yea I know, I'm a little over dramatic, but, at least I'm an extremely excited loser with a purpose!  lol

btw, thanks for the shrooms :smile: I always enjoy good vibes and I'll be happy to throw them back your way!


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


Edited by Acinaxuz (07/11/06 11:23 AM)


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5845824 - 07/11/06 06:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

OH! I forgot links!

You'll really enjoy this one (the one you weren't able to find iirc)...
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/129/3/1160

Network info/Jelly Fish example...
http://www.microscopyu.com/articles/livecellimaging/fpintro.html

>>edit<< one more >>edit<<
http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/regulation.html

and I'd also like to edit the section on the glowing shroom...

I read somewhere in all my research that psilocin or psilocybin affect color, and I just remembered that... in theory if there was an abundance of psilocybin/psilobin, it could crystalize at a molecular level somehow to create tranparency. This would also support the nerve repair theory--it builds/repairs tissue, the ends would by speculation emit "glow" if there was an abundance of light absorbing chemical--be it tryptamines/psilocin/psilocyban--actively building very thin tissue...

do I need to be regrounded?


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


Edited by Acinaxuz (07/11/06 07:07 AM)


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5845862 - 07/11/06 06:59 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Over-running the enzyme and it resulting in necrotic spots makes sense in literal ways, but the chemical reaction is beyond me. I'm thinking that if plant is overloaded with TDC, it then begins attacking itself due to limited supply of proteins (or needed addition to complete synthesis).

The same indeed could be true in mushrooms, applying the same logic it could eat "itself" to produce psilocin. I wonder if there's anything to this theory when it comes to hollow stems? There is a strain that is known for hollow stems--maybe it's because there is an overage of TDC. Has anyone attempted growing that strain (can't think of it at the moment) on heightened levels of tryptophan? (Oyster Shells, Seaweed, B vit additions etc, how did it perform on poo?) A large supply in theory would feed the enzymes. Could it actually be an over supply of enzyme we're still stuck with the same issue of providing abundant tryptamine to feed the need. Damn, I can't win for losin.




I've changed my mind here also--by the enzyme bonding to the chloroplast, inactivating the light absorbancy process, you would get the necroptic spots--it didn't occur in the other places because it didn't have chlorophyll/chloroplast to inactivate--transfered to mush context, it could have rebonded with some of the light absorbing materials...


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5845913 - 07/11/06 07:56 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'm going to take a break for a bit--going cross-eyed... will look forward to your posted results!!


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5846663 - 07/11/06 02:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You've gotta be kidding right? This is almost too perfect...

This is a grow log done by undernose utilizing tryptamine addition, and coffee grounds. He agreed that I may use the pictures he sent me through PM, here...

Undernose:
Quote:

Coffee is not added for potency just growth speed, I have done my own tests so have many others and it appears to work, I have seen some deformities but few, there is no marked effect on potency.






and



Notice the necroptic spots on the caps of the mushie, note, not nipples... deformations, breaking down of tissue...

It seems the coffee grounds have sped growth significantly, but the effects remain, as other testing done with coffee is not resulting in these spots! Look at all of the aborts...

Since the growth was sped up by the stimulant to balance growth there dwarving occured slightly less, HOWEVER, the accumulation of tryptamine still made for necroptic spotting on the caps and abundant aborts. My conclusion would be that the mushroom is reacting to the same enzyme process as the tobacco plants.

I still say it's a reaction because each individual environment is different... it poses different hazards for different biochemical make-ups, the presence of one enzyme may make the compound stable, and the lack of that enzyme in another environment could lead to breakdown and rebonding, leaving it ineffective to continue it's processes. This of course would result in "dying" portions of the mushroom...


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5846906 - 07/11/06 03:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Here is the Ban Phang Ka shroom that were grown on acacia substrate.
This is only one chunk that was mature earlier than the rest

The little green plate of pins & aborts came from this chunk & some of the surrounding area. I have never seen such a crazy mutated pin set, maybe the KSSS strain.


I thought you would like to see these pics of some z-strain I grew with coffee grounds added,But NO Acacia, Nice smooth caps


some aborts but nowhere as many


Only one deformity noted, A kind of Anti-nipple.


you have to take the characteristics if the Ban Phan Ka strain into account.
I have not grown these before, I don't have any pics of these,
There appeared to be a mass overpopulation of pins at the start. A carpet of pins on top of pins, about 1/2 made it, I feel that these needed a better growing environment.
It is very crowded in there a bigger tub would have been good .
Lots of aborts could be a trait of this strain??


Edited by UnderNose (07/27/06 03:55 AM)


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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: UnderNose]
    #5846964 - 07/11/06 03:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Most of those in the green tray don't look like aborts. If there had been a way to harvest those around them without damaging the pins, they would have grown on second or third flush. Often, pins for all flushes appear at the time of pins for first flush, then they start growing when their time comes.

I don't normally follow these tryptamine threads, but when I get some time, I'll come back and read. I've never seen any evidence that tryptamines or tryptaphans increase potency in any way, but perhaps you're onto something. Never be afraid to experiment. I've probably learned more from my failures than successes.
RR


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Time to Think! (Tryptamines) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5847206 - 07/11/06 04:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I thought you would like to see these pics of some z-strain I grew with coffee grounds added, Nice smooth caps




those are very pretty, and smooth!  Those weren't grown with the acacia though, right?

What I'm pointing out, is that the deformity isn't coming from the coffee... it's coming from the TDC that's also found in acacia.

Summary:  TDC changes Tryptophan into tryptomine then tryptomine is changed to psilocin. The previous theory is that if you add tryptomine or tryptophan into substrate, you would receive higher potency--which is true to an extent. The mushroom regulates how much chemical it makes based on chemical levels--just like any other living organism, plant or animal. So by increasing tryptophan or tryptomine, you're not doing anything for the mushroom because the mushroom can and does make this on its own. If you feed the mushroom what it normally makes, it saves energy and utilizes what's in the substrate--thus, it does not produce "extra" for higher potency production... This opens up a whole other can of worms...

Everything grows in cycles, the mushroom's cycles are a series of created chemical compounds made specifically for a "job". In mushrooms tryptophan is produced to merge Chorismate and Glutamine (see post that starts with "I figured out why tryptophan won't work", above for further detail.) which in turn does another job, merges, and does another job. There's all kinds of really kick ass information in the links up there and if you're interested it's there for the clicking. Moving on...

If you increase the amount of TDC (Tryptophan Decarboxylase--enzyme which breaks down Tryptophan into tryptamine) you would in essence have continual increase in psilocin, because unlike tryptophan or tryptamine it isn't regulated. As the mushroom "eats" and absorbs, and the compounds inside of it chemically change, it only produces as much as the mushroom itself can regulate. Meaning, there is a maximum amount of tryptophan that the mushroom can keep in its system.

As far as we know at this point, there is NO limit to TDC which would create tryptomine/psilocin. As long as there is enzyme there (though from another plant source) it still, in the long run, suffices to make an over abundance of psilocin. This has been done in tobacco plants with a fair amount of success (increasing tryptamine, not psilocin)--though the benefits there are lost, when clearly the benefits here are plenty.

The issue comes in with the side effects of the over stocked tryptamine. Tobacco plants fed extracted TDC from another plant, it began getting "rot spots" from the heavily increased chemical.

My theory on this is just that it's from another source--certain enzymes, or inhibitors, or even effectors could alter the chemical enough to bind/merge with something else to inactivate it, which is somewhat supported by the links above, but is still in research status.  :smile:

Previously, the development path taken by the mushroom was not generally thought to contain similar tryptamines to serotonin, but as Dr. Albert Hofmann found, the chemical psilocin is only 1 hydroxyl molecule away from our very own serotonin.

Serotonin is used in the body to regulate our temperatures and sleep cycles and acts as a neurotransmitter. Being this the case, and that psilocin breaks down in our body, enzyme inhibitors (though I admit I have no idea as of yet what chemical it would be) in a sense shut everything down and then you experience the distorted imagry and "spiritual connection" most find in psilocin/psilocybin intake.

I believe that psilocin is the same in mushies, and seemingly, the idea also has FF's brain going, whom by the way, I appreciate dearly! Being the bundle of brains, experience, and chem. books that he is, he may even be able to shed more light on the biosynthetic pathway.

The title kind of throws this off a bit--and it seems that we're not getting too many people due to the topic being beaten to a pulp... but as far as I know, this is the only one of the kind.

If anyone has info--POST IT! No sense in wasting time looking for answers that we've already found to be absolute. Use research to debunk this thread... the more we know it's not, the better our chances of finding what is. Throw in ideas!... something!... it's getting lonely in here!

<3 -Zuxi


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All posts are made with only the intent to entertain myself and should ONLY be read with the understanding that they are FICTICIOUS. I do not warrant information I provide for use in illegal activity of any kind nor do I condone it for any reason. Furthermore, I am not, I have never, nor will I in the future, take ANY part in illegal activites.


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