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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Tryptophan
    #3576822 - 01/03/05 11:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Can someone fill me in on what exactly this is and how it effects mushroom growth, and if you have any reading material please post it, thanks for your time.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #3579362 - 01/04/05 02:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Tryptophan is an amino acid.
It makes a lousy nitrogen source.
It is the starting point for manufacturing Psilocibin in a mushroom.

Gartz did a study showing that the addition of tryptamine, not tryptophan, increased goodie content in mushrooms. WHAT IS MOST INTERESTING ABOUT tHE STUDY, and paid the least attention too, is that only 20 percent of the goodies produced where made with the Tryptamine introduced into the substrate. 80% was manufatured via normal pathways. Tryptophan found in the substrate, and tryptophan manufatured by the mushroom accounted for the remaining 80% of the produced goodies.

Something about having a tryptamine rich substrate enables more tryptophan to be manufactured by the mushroom indirectly. The actual tryptamine was only responsible for 20% of the total CONTENT of goodies.

A 1 gram sample yielded 3.3 % goodies or 33 mg of goodies. Of this 33 mg only 6.6 mg were made directly from the tryptamine introduced. The other 26.4 mg of goodies were produced by Tryptophan either taken in from the susbtrate or manufactured by the mushroom.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: EonTan]
    #3579468 - 01/04/05 02:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting, so is this process worth the trouble? or is this chemcial not very easy to come by?


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #3579492 - 01/04/05 02:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If you want more potent shrooms grow properly and grow potent species.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: EonTan]
    #3581252 - 01/04/05 09:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

everyone seems to believe all shrooms have pretty much the same potency, give or take a few.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #3585272 - 01/05/05 07:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

No they don't.

Psilocybe cubensis and Psilocybe subcubensis are two closely related species. Within these species complex are many varieties. The varities are called Strains. Each strain itself has lots of substrains.

The potency within the species will vary within a Range of minimum maximum potency. Without adding something to the substrate, LIKe TRYPTAMINE, the potency will remain within this range.

Now the range of potency from species to species can vary Greatly. One species can have a higher Maximum potency then another species. The range of potency will be higher for Copelandia cyanescens, then for Psilocybe cubensis. So the potency of the two mushrooms is different.

"Everyone" believes that Psilocybe cubensis has a Range of potency, minimum and maximum. So any Variety of Cubensis will fall within that range, without having something in the substrate like Tryptamine. Even though they fall within the range, the potency can be different from one individual mushroom to another in the same flush of the same variety of the same species. Each varierty of Cubensis can have it's own subrange of potency, that differs slightly from each other variety.

To say they are all the same is to ignore Population genetics, cultural differences, and even the Individual taking the mushroom.

The population of a species that is producing by spores is going to have some indiviuals with high potency, some with low, and the majority in the middle of the range for that variety, and that species, on the same exact substrate in the same environmnetal parameters.

That range of potency may be experienced completely different from individual to individual in a populaiton of people. IE, some people can have very difficult times handling very small amounts of Psilocybe cubensis of any variety, and others might be able to handle ten times the amount.

If you are considering potency including both the chemical quantity and the individual experience of that quantity it will be next to impossible to quantify Potency except on an individual mushroom to individual person reaction. This would be rediculous.

What is typical done is an individual will eat a small quantity of a sample of a single variety of a single species and determine the potency themselves. Then they can do a higher dose of the same sample. You can establish your potency range for that particular variety of that particular species. This may be different from batch to batch, variety to variety, species to species.

If you sample some exotics like Copelandia, or some of the other Psilocybe species you will find that Potency CHANGES drastically as a Quantity of Active ingredient from Species to Species. Potency as a measure of individula experience will skew any generalalizations of what is potent and what is not, or how substantial those differences are.

I personal have meet people that do not get high on any form of Active mushroom. I have also meet people who have total breaks from reality on the smallest amount of shrooms, describing the heart of the trip in terms of BLACKOUTS.

The best advice is to start small .5 grams and work your way up in .5 gram increments. AND WHAT EVER YOU DO do not assume one species is the same as another. Always start at the low end .5 grams for anything new you come across.


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Invisiblesafrole
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: EonTan]
    #3589266 - 01/06/05 04:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

tryptophan is a carboxilic acid in additon to being an amino acid. cubies do not have the enzyme to decarboxalate it to tryptamine. it is not the starting point for the manufacture of psylocin/bin.
indole is. indole is usually dervied from auxin, but that may or may not be the case in cubies. the route they employ is way more complex. tryptophan has yet to be demonstrated as a precursor to psylocin/bin in cubies.


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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: safrole]
    #3589323 - 01/06/05 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What you are posting contradicts data published in peer-reviewed journals(*). Please post sources if you want anyone to believe you.

(*) For example:
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=5658
https://members.magiskamolekyler.org/~pi...be.cubensis.pdf


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: safrole]
    #3590420 - 01/06/05 09:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Tryptophan > Auxin.

Tryptophan is the starting point of Auxin. :rolleyes:


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Invisiblesafrole
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: EonTan]
    #3591551 - 01/07/05 01:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

hve you read the refs you posted? the erowid link doesn't work.
there are a few things you should see in the second one.
on the fourth page it says that decarboxalation is required to effectively utilize tryptophan as a precursor. and if you look at the table just to the right and see the percent of the precursor incorporated into psylocin/bin, it topped out at less than one half percent. but what you say can be true. so i stand corrected, but the link you posted showed tryptophan to be a shitty precursor.
ive also read no journals indicating that mushrooms synth tryptophan into auxin, either.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: safrole]
    #3593388 - 01/07/05 01:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't post any links.

Tryptophan is the building block for some Nitrogen containing secondary metabolites.

Tryptophan> IAA
Tryptophan> Tryptamine

You don't need to read journals read a basic physiology book.


Edited by EonTan (01/08/05 10:21 AM)


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Invisiblesafrole
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: EonTan]
    #3593748 - 01/07/05 03:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

guess i was just trying to argue that it was a shitty additive to add to substrates. fucking sorry for ruffling feathers here.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: safrole]
    #3597635 - 01/08/05 10:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Were just trying to keep the information accurate, not trying to be a Dicks.

Yes Tryptophan makes a bad additive for boosting Goodie production, but not because it isn't the precursor, or that it isn't decarboxylated.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: EonTan]
    #3603885 - 01/09/05 04:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/24373

Since tryptophan decarboxylase in inhibited by downregulation you should add stuff later on in the pathway (like tryptamine).


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: micro]
    #3608592 - 01/10/05 05:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The natural pathway is through Tryptophan manufactured by the mushroom, not neccessarily taken in from the Substrate.

In the gartz study only 1/4 of the total goodies produced were derived from the TAGGED Tryptamine. So it stands that the other 3/4 would have been produced by NORMAL PATHWAYS, which go through Tryptophan MANUFACTURED by the mushroom.


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OfflineBlueD
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: EonTan]
    #3613300 - 01/11/05 05:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Anyone know any bio sources for raw tryptamine?
I have heard of several (pumpkin seed, stinging nettle) but don't know if anyones tried adding them to cubie substrate. Perhaps this is a stupid question but it's been gnawing away at the back of my mind for years, is there a natural way to decarboxylate the tryptophan that naturally occurs in certain grains? Would this process happen naturally during pasturization (some of my favorite things in the world are rendered active by decarboxylation of tetrahydrocannabolic acid) and the oxalic acid sting in nettles is rendered harmless by the same method (drying/cooking heat and o2 basically). Or am I way off?


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Re: Tryptophan *DELETED* [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #3616838 - 01/12/05 07:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by bluemeanie

Reason for deletion: kk



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #3617071 - 01/12/05 10:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> Psilocybes readily convert tryptophan into psilocybin and psilocin - in fact these alkaloids
> are converted trytophan from the substrate.

Actually only to psilocin. And not from tryptophan. As far I know. This is from the experiments Garz did.


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OfflineInnerBeing
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: Anno]
    #3619715 - 01/12/05 07:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Anno what is that entity in your avatar? I am quite curious of it.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Tryptophan [Re: Anno]
    #3619825 - 01/12/05 08:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The gartz study showed that adding tryptamine, not tryptophan, increased Psilocin content in the mushroom. But it also showed that only 1/4 of the total concentration of the elevated levels was directly related to the TAGGED TRYPTAMINE. The rest of the PSilocin was not associated with the TAGGED TRYPTAMINE. So it came from Tryptamine manufactured by the mushroom, which is only manufactured from Tryptophan.

Tryptophan>Tryptamine in mushrooms. If you can demonstrate How you get to Tryptamine from some other Precursor in mushrooms or plants, please provide a link. Becasue EVERY PHYSIOLOGY BOOK on both Plants and Fungi contradicts what is being implied here.

I don't think anyone is paying attention to the FACT that in Gartz study the TAGGED TRYPTAMINE only was associated with 1/4 of the 3Percent of Psilocin.

Added x amount of Tryptamine Yielded 30+ mg psilocin. But of the 30+mg, only 7.5 mg could be confirmed as being Directly manufactured from the Tagged TRyptamine. The other 22.5+ mg was manufactured via tryptamine that was not TAGGED. This means Tryptamine that was manufactured by the mushroom, from it's Precursor Tryptophan.


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