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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia
    #1536812 - 05/10/03 12:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Greets,
I posted something like this as a reply to a question in the main Cult forum, but I think it would be better off with its own thread here.  I've read numerous statements about how adding Tryptamine HCl to casing material can triple (!!) the amount of tryptamines contained in the shrooms. Now, lets say that one can't obtain HCl(because in this instance, one sure can't :frown: ) . Lets say that this individual gets a few lbs of p. viridia leaves (from bouncinbearbotanicals.com , the source for shamanical plants!).  Lets say that said person grinds these up (while they are dry) into a powder, and mixes  that powder with the brf and verm for his jars (maybe adding some sand or something to make a nice healthy pH for our white cloud friends).  Would the mycelia absorb the tryptamines from the viridai, then transfer them to the shrooms?  Would this NOT work because HCl is a pre-cursor, and DMT is a "finished product"?  Would addding the P. Viiridia to the casing layer instead do anything (other than introduce contams)?  I'd really like to hear what you have to say about this, and if I get enough "it might work"'s, I'm going to ask my iguana for his Credit Card and i'll have him try it out.

:-)

thanks again!

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1536853 - 05/10/03 01:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know -- might do something but I'm sure it would not be as efficient as the straight hcl but you'd probably want to extract it first --

Look up:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_chemistry1.shtml

The mycelium would only have to demethylate it, so it might work....
I'd put it in the substrate, IMO.

--
Micro


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1536863 - 05/10/03 01:34 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, Hm. I've extracted DMT from P. Viridia before and smoked it (holy.... fucking.... shit, all I can say). I'm wondering if I can extract it (I only did it with isoprophyl alcohol) into a gooey tar of the organicaly soluable materials in the viridia, then dilute that down with water, and use that in the substrate. do you think that that would have any effect? I think i'll try erowid's method for extraction next time and mix those salts with the substrate. Would a tryptamine analouge be an inviation to contam? I wouldn't think so myself . . . OK well, if I get some more positive replies, i'm goign to attempt this next time. Any idea how I could objectively determine wether or not the tryptamine content of the shroomies have gone up? I guess I could extract and gas chromotog, and see what percentage it is. does anyoen have the lab writeup from the thing thats on the shroomery about it tripling the amount of tryptamines?

thanks!!
jr


--------------------
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537022 - 05/10/03 03:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You'd probably need to acidify the water to get it to dissolve. If you tried to turn it neutral some of it would probably precipitate out.

--
Micro


--------------------
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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1537268 - 05/10/03 05:38 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well, if I took the DMT crystals that were extracted (as well as the other tryptamines) and mixed them into the substrate mixture (I have no idea what level I'd want to mix them in there), do you think that would work? I think that this is going to have to be tried by someone :-)

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537370 - 05/10/03 06:38 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I read something (I think from here, but I can't find it) where someone did a methanol extraction of some kind of root bark and then took the solution and mixed it with the vermiculite. He then took the vermiculite/methanol and put it into a pan and evaporated off the alcohol (stirring occationaly) and used this vermiculite in a brf/vermiculite substrate.

Never tried it myself, though, and I don't know the reliability of the article. Makes sense, though.

I have no clue around how much you should add unless you can figure out how much DMT is in the solution (about the content in the leaves or whatever w/ 3 extractions.)

I don't know if there would be a contamination risk, sorry. Mycelium can eat cellulose, though, so maybe if the leaves were dry???

--
Micro


--------------------
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(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1537445 - 05/10/03 07:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm... using the dry leaves instead of BRF... I wonder...


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537714 - 05/10/03 09:25 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Honestly, I don't know if you could use dry leaves as a bulk substrate.... You might need to add other things, but I don't know.... Anyone else?

You might have to crush them up a bit first.

This is interesting....

--
Micro


--------------------
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Edited by micro (05/11/03 11:38 AM)


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1538956 - 05/11/03 02:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hey -- I was thinking -- Phalaris grass has DMT in it -- maybe dry some phahlris grass?

--
Micro


--------------------
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(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Offlinejarhead
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1539059 - 05/11/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

that would be great !!! Phalaris can grow everywhere and is rather easy to cultivate , the biggest problem imo is to recognize it ,when there are grasses growing in the neighbourhood and in vegetative stage , i'm curious about the results of this trial


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: jarhead]
    #1539333 - 05/11/03 05:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, I'm ordering my new syringes in about 2 weeks here, If anyone spots this that has a surplus of p. viridia they'd unload cheap (hint hint to bouncin bear :-) ) I'm down for it. I'll formulate a plan ot incorporate them into both tthe substrate and the jras, and i'll post it here before I do it, i'd like to have some feedback on the actual plan before I attempt. I appreciate the help

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1539361 - 05/11/03 06:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Just a few quick thoughts on how I'm gonna do this. First of all, anyone know if DMT is water soluable? I'd assume not, since you have to add lemon juice or whatever for ayahuasca. Lets say that I get some dried viridia leaves. I grind them into a powder. This powder, I mix as a 1:1 ratio with BRF. That is what I use in the jars. Everything goes as normal. then, for my casing layer, I use 1:1:1 sphagnum:verm:viridia. only thing I cna think of here, that viridia is gonna attract some contams. Hm... What would anyone recommend? I think that extracting the triptamines from the viridia leaf would be ideal. that way i wouldn't have opened any doors for contam in the casing layer, and the acidity of the water that I'd have to use to extract it wouldn't be a factor either. Maybe an isoprophyl extraction would work? Ideally, I'd like to have the crystals in the casing layer and the jars, as I think the mycelia, therefore the shroom,s, would absorb more of it that way.

Any thoughts are appreciated :-


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1539635 - 05/11/03 08:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

First of all, anyone know if DMT is water soluable? I'd assume not, since you have to add lemon juice or whatever for ayahuasca.

Not readily; you would have to acidify the water. You can't really heat the water too much to let it dissolve because its boiling point is 60-80?C (water boiling is 100?C).

Lets say that I get some dried viridia leaves. I grind them into a powder. This powder, I mix as a 1:1 ratio with BRF. That is what I use in the jars.

Honestly, I don't know anything about mycelium colonizing on dried leaves. It seems possible, but that's something that probably needs to be experimented with. It seems like the DMT might be too hot in a pressure cooker, however.

then, for my casing layer, I use 1:1:1 sphagnum:verm:viridia. only thing I cna think of here, that viridia is gonna attract some contams. Hm... What would anyone recommend?

IMO, I would not use it in the casing layer -- you're right about the contaminants. It may work if you're really careful, but undecomposed plant matter in the casing layer is one of the main causes of contamination (especially trichoderma outbreaks.) It might be more effective used kind of as a bulk substrate and mixed into the mycelium (if the mycelium can colonize on the leaves.)

I think that extracting the triptamines from the viridia leaf would be ideal. that way i wouldn't have opened any doors for contam in the casing layer, and the acidity of the water that I'd have to use to extract it wouldn't be a factor either.

Do you mean extract it to put in the casing layer, or in the substrate? There are probably nutrients that will be extracted with it via a simple alchohol extraction -- you might have to do an acid/base extraction of it with a series of washes in order to get it free of nutrients. Again, though, one can only know if one were to try. You would have to get it as a salt to make it water soluble.

Maybe an isoprophyl extraction would work?

It should extract it, but I don't know how well and if it would damage it. Should work, though, IMO.

This is interesting me a lot -- I might try pasteurizing some dry mature Phalaris grass at ~ 60 C for a long time and try using it as a bulk substrate. Anyone know the potency of the mature grass? If this doesn't work maybe I'll try an extraction....

We shall see....

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1540313 - 05/12/03 01:04 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yea I'm definatly down for it.  I read somewhere about extracting it as a crystal, probably somewhere on erowid, using hydrocloric acid to make it really acidic.  What do you think would be the restulting compounds using that method?

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_chemistry1.shtml  States that you can get it to the freebase WATER SOLUABLE form.  It also says it will absorb other tryptamines.  Now, lets say that we use P. Viridia.  I'd like ot get about 5 lbs of the shit so I could make the most tryptamine rich soil ever known to exist :-)  If this was done, and every other step in that erowid document (the defatting etc) was done, I think that we'd be using a relatively clean tryptamine source.  Now the question, I think, is this.  If we can obtain a relatively pure tryp. source that is water soluable, where should we add it, how, and in what quantity? also, will it work :smile:

I agree with your comment that the pressure cooking could destroy the tryptamines (although I think for experimentation purposes, it couldn't hurt as long as we have alot of salts on hand to begin with).    I'd say that mixing it with the casing material would probably lead to the best results.  I've never gone with bulk substrate, so I dunno what to say about that.  Pastureization and using it very well could work, i'm totally ignorant on that subject tho.

So, this is how I see the experiment running, somewhat.  We'd have, lets say just for the discussion, 40 jars.  The mixture for all of the jars would be exactly the same.  The mixture would then be broken in half. One half would have large amount of tryptaimes added to it.  The jars with that mix put in there would be marked.  This would give us two batches, half with and half without tryptamine addition at the pre-PC/mycelia growth level.  They are all PC'ed.  Now, half of the ones that DO have the tryptamine addition (10 do, 10 don't) need to be our control.  They will be the control for tryptamine added to mycelia but not casing material, and tryptamine added to mycelia AND casing material.  That leaves us 20 jars that haven't been innocultaed with tryptamines.  10 of these are set aside as our standard control (no triptamines added at any time, jars or cased) and 10 of them will only have the triptamines added to the casing layer.

As far as I can see, this would cover all the bases of possible tryptamine addition, and leave a few controls open.  You'd have to use your own subjective mind (literally:)) to see wether or not it worked, and how much psic. is in each one.  I'd think that gas chromotog or some oether form of chemical spectrum assay would be rquired to get. a definate answer.  Also, if the shrooms produce more tryptamines, would their offspring? I preemptivly vote that if they do, we should call them "nietzche shrooms" :-)

Well, I hope we can try this soon.  someone with substrate knowledge will have to try that, but i'll be happy to add my .02$ wherever needed :smile:

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1540478 - 05/12/03 01:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah -- they are taking the freebase form and then salting it out w/ HCl. The HCl salt will be water soluble.

I don't know exactly the amount to add, but a paper stated using a 25mM (.025 mol/L) concentration of tryptamine-HCl. 1 mol of DMT is 188.27g. You would have to take into consideration, though, that the product you obtained would not be pure DMT so I would think you'd have to add more. From what I've read, using PF substrate causes the fruitbodies to be dwarfed; the best results came from using a brown rice/dung mixture, but you could always try....

The casing might work; don't know though, never tried it.

The offspring would probably not have much of a change in them; culturing too many generations on this substrate may actually reduce the potency if they adapted to a tryptamine-rich substrate thus breeding out some of the necessary steps needed to produce it in a substrate not as rich in tryptamines.

I don't know if it would work, but it's something worth trying. Your major problems would probably be fruiting properly and the increased psylocin content which would break down a lot easier -- wouldn't be a problem if eating them fresh, but may have an influence after drying.

Maybe make different jars with different concentrations of the salt. I would guess that the one with the highest concentration that fruits properly would be the most potent, but who knows??? This would be hard to determine quantitatively, but it can be done. You could just test for alkaloids with Keller's reagent (FeCL2 + acetic acid (glacial) + conc. H2SO4) and dilute some solutions if you need to.

I'm still not sure what the pressure cooker would do, though.

--
Micro


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OfflineDailyPot
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1541951 - 05/12/03 04:15 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)



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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1544009 - 05/13/03 03:04 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Tryptophan becomes tryptamine. Organisms including our little friends, do this conversion.

Read my replies in this thread.

In that thread I say to read all the links/threads in the thread I linked to. Keep following the thread between the threads.

If you're up for experimenting, I think this could be an easier and safer bet. Neither my friend nor I has been able to try this yet (we need to move to another country) but using tryptophan as a precursor is already documented, it can be chemically(by a human) or naturally converted, and as you will see, my friend has some ideas of his own.


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: psyphon]
    #1544465 - 05/13/03 09:16 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Makes sense -- I have an extra bottle of tryptophan lying around so will try some next run -- can't hurt. Any ideas on weight? End potency? If not I'll just go around 25mM; some more, some less.

I still like the idea of trying to cultivate on phalaris grass, but I looked it up and it costs $150 for 5 Pounds!!! I think I'll just stick to the seeds and grow it, so it may take a while.

Thanks for the info! I'll post the "results" when I can.

--
Micro


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OfflineGhosty
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: micro]
    #1584516 - 05/28/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I know this topic is somewhat old yet still to new to get any results but has any of you come up with some soild ideas that will work. And how much to use, if you use to much I would assume the mushroom would be to potent and possibly harm...?


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OfflineMycena
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Re: Tryptamine addition to jars via P. Viridia [Re: Ghosty]
    #1584772 - 05/28/03 01:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Why not use Phalaris straw instead of regular straw? Its very easy to grow> ive never tried it but i know others who have. Extracts of this plant used thi sway may be a very goo duse for it as the gramine makes it a bit toxic.
I have heap sof seed of P aquatica var 'australia' - a high alkaloid variant
Id be happy to swap seed for a print

Or grow a Tryptamine rich species, extract with acetone and mix this into the substrate
Acacia species (A accuminata)  and Petalostylis sp  can be rich in tryptamine
Im sure there are many others

Dont waste the good stuff :smile: Surely DMT containing material is too expensive to be economical


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