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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8647898 -

No, it is someone influenced by him.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Chronic7]
    #8647902 -

Chronic777 said:
Veritas said:
  If love is healing and beneficial for everyone, why would we withhold from those who need it the most?


Because we think we get love from external things so dont think we actually have any to give, all external things do is allow our minds to find peace & touch the love that we already are, when you discover it then you have so much love all you can do is give it.

Ramana said it well: (happyness & love being taken as synonymous as both are the Self)

Ramana:

Happiness is the very nature of the Self; happiness and the Self are not different. There is no happiness in any object of the world. We imagine through our ignorance that we derive happiness from objects. When the mind goes out, it experiences misery. In truth, when its desires are fulfilled, it returns to its own place and enjoys the happiness that is the Self. Similarly, in the states of sleep, samadhi and fainting, and when the object desired is obtained or the object disliked is removed, the mind becomes inward-turned, and enjoys pure Self-Happiness. Thus the mind moves without rest alternately going out of the Self and returning to it. Under the tree the shade is pleasant; out in the open the heat is scorching. A person who has been going about in the sun feels cool when he reaches the shade. Someone who keeps on going from the shade into the sun and then back into the shade is a fool. A wise man stays permanently in the shade. Similarly, the mind of the one who knows the truth does not leave Brahman. The mind of the ignorant, on the contrary, revolves in the world, feeling miserable, and for a little time returns to Brahman to experience happiness.

When this truth hits home you really can unconditionally love effortlessly because you stay immersed in love instead of coming back into the world of resistance

:peace:


I disagree... but not entirely. Actually, I agree with a great deal of your post.

Love is generated internally, not from outside people/things.

You can practice love, but you'll never perfect it. You can however keep improving. And there are certanly worse things a person could do with their life than practice love.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Veritas]
    #8650976 -

Hmm... how can I see a person without their actions ?
I only can see that, for big parts, its actions are conditional not directly to the person itself, too, but then, what is left from the person to be loved ? It's (unused) potential in being ?
You say, 'sinners' would need the most 'love'. I think I have to disagree. It's the victims who need it the most first.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8651203 -

And if we are to accurately identify the "victims," where shall we start our search for having been wronged?  Shall we start it from the particular action we observe (someone starts a fist fight in a bar without provocation), or shall we take it back to that "sinners'" childhood (when he was physically abused)?  Shall we stop with his abusive father, or take it back to the gang of teenagers who regularly beat up and ridiculed his father after school?  Shall we take it into each gang members' home, and search for the times when they were victimized?

Or do we simply take for granted that such an unbroken chain exists, and decide to break it by offering love in place of negative judgment?

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #8651259 -

Icelander said:
is to get to 20,000 posts!

Just kidding.:tongue:


IMO the greatest challenge a human can undertake is to accept life unconditionally. To accept what presents itself and even if we don't like it, agree with it, and even if we want to work to change it, we accept it as an essential component of what is. We can accept others and ourselves as we are, even if we don't like the actions, we can accept unconditionally the fact that everyone is doing their best to be happy, whether skillfully or unskillfully, getting the results they want or not.

To do this with everything you will ever encounter takes guts of steel and most of all love, love of life just as it is. The real love, not the conditional thing we call love. (I love you if you're in my family, my tribe, love me back, do what I say, do what I like, don't hate me or hurt me, etc.)

The person who does this best is the most "enlightened" IMO. Like the word says, they are lighter and don't have to carry their fears and addictions so close.

It's by far the biggest challenge you can undertake IMO. Just take a look at how many take it and you will realize how challenging it is.

I'm really not too good at it but it's the only skill that I really want to master.


I agree entirely. One of the things I am terrible at is just letting things occur. I am a notorious planner and nitpicker about my life. It has worked great so far for my career and educational aspirations, but it has also caused excessive stress and general anxiety.

I too would like to get much better at this.

Edit: 20,000 posts is easy to get. :wink:

Edited by Redstorm (07/18/08 04:00 PM)

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Redstorm]
    #8651310 -

20,000 posts is easy to get.

The master speaks.:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #8651371 -

:lol:

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Veritas]
    #8653672 -

Often in our days, the 'criminal' gets all the attention, psychological help and programs, while the victims were left alone standing in the rain.
I also see a chain of causes, but for me it's not unbroken. The responsibility of each one for his choice stands against this. Maybe this is that what you mean by 'not-action'. The potential of choice.
And I know people who intentionally try to get advantages from 'loving' others. They use to exploit them and call them dumb. For me there's a limit in how much I love, care, accept or help them. And I see no need to change that.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #8653711 -

Icelander said:
is to get to 20,000 posts!

Just kidding.:tongue:


IMO the greatest challenge a human can undertake is to accept life unconditionally. To accept what presents itself and even if we don't like it, agree with it, and even if we want to work to change it, we accept it as an essential component of what is. We can accept others and ourselves as we are, even if we don't like the actions, we can accept unconditionally the fact that everyone is doing their best to be happy, whether skillfully or unskillfully, getting the results they want or not.



Why bother?

Seriously though, I see where you're going with this and I'm there with you most of the way, but what gets me is the bit about agreeing with things we don't actually agree with. I'm sorry, I can be super unattached and zen about things not going my way, but that doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly approve of oil spills or genocide. Ah, I sure do love the glossy sheen of thousands of barrels of crude on the ocean. Black is a good colour for endangered seabirds, it's slimming. :smirk:

And as much as I'm constantly giving people the benefit of the doubt, I'm recognizing lately that not everyone really does try thier best to be happy and live well. Alot of people don't try very hard at all at anything other than making excuses for hiding from life. What other people do is not my problem and I'm not gonna get worked up about it, it's just worth noting when trying to determine if a potential friend or lover is worth the effort.

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8654325 -

Wow, I never said the "agree" word once except to say that we may not agree with things and still accept them. You don't have to agree with anything to accept it. I accept you and oil spills even though I don't agree with you or them. I may work to  change your mind or to stop oil spills but that doesn't mean I don't accept that they and you and your weird opinions  are here and an unfolding part of the universe and necessary for the unfolding of life.(because they're here). You've missed my point for sure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #8654502 -

I haven't missed your point. I agree with it but I have to put in that disclaimer in order to be clear about what it means (to me) and what I believe is a balanced way to adopt the insight.

Now again, "necessary for the unfolding of life" is a stretch as well. Nothing is necessary. Everything is. I think its important to accept that everything is and be grounded in our current situation. This doesn't preclude action, even adversarial action.

It's not so much towards you that I'm so adamant about making my criticism clear, it's more in response to all the flake-job hippies who think that acceptance is a great excuse to do nothing but float around aimlessly and not play an active role in thier own lives and communities. So, my verdict on the theory is "yes, but..." I just think the bit I brought up needs to be clarified.

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8655560 -

OK, sorry for the confusion. Nothing is necessary. Everything is. This means the same to me. It's necessary because it is. Otherwise it wouldn't happen. :laugh:

But for those who want to do nothing and float I won't be the one to say they're  wrong.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8657926 -

and I don't think you got my post still.

You can't accept that some people don't share your beliefs and think somehow they need to change. So you should this and that. You did indeed miss the point of my thread.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #8658355 -

People can go ahead and live thier lives however they want, but I can still think thier ideas are stupid and I can still accept them for what they are.

Sartre said that when we choose for ourselves we choose for the whole world, when we live in a certain way we do so because we think it's good enough for everyone else. It is impossible to avoid having some idea of what is better or worse to think, do, say, etc. Or have you forgotten that you spend the majority of your time here ripping into people for having bad ideas?

I don't understand why you insist of using the word necessary. Necessary means that if the so called necessary element was missing things would not work properly. It means it cannot be absent. It's necessary for a bicycle to have two wheels, for example. Without two wheels it's not a bike. Yet you are saying that things are necessary because they are, and that if things so happened to be different that arrangement would be necessary because it was. That is using the word 'necessary' innappropriately, conversely to it's widely accepted definition.

Anyways, your argument all falls apart when you look at how it's own logic negates itself.

Pure acceptance is an ideal state
Everything is necessary
If everything is necessary one ought to accept it
If everything is necessary and ought to be accepted there is no ideal state
If there is no ideal state, acceptance is not an ideal state
Thus acceptance as an ideal state is negated completely.

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8658416 -

I can see a commonality in veritas' and icelander's posts in that they both use terms like
acceptance and values to express things that seem absolute but are actually relative.

for me these terms relate not to real things but to artifacts.
acceptance - relates to encorporating experience into the stream of consciousness without resistance or adding reactions or association-contexts of perception.
it seems to call up an image of being in tune with what is happenning, rather than being at war with what is happenning.
it also calls up the image of the warrior poised against the part of self that interrupts the stream of consciousness with not accepting what is happenning.
this can be a pretty good poise for a warrior to take.
there is a distinct thinning of experiencing that occurs, however, when the association-contexts are diminished while attempting to stay in the stream.
IMO, the association-contexts have to be welcomed in the stream of consciousness as well as other things that are happenning.
as such, the acceptance thing becomes a non-thing or an extra routine to be dispensed with.

as for "values" these are the association-contexts.
the idea of values as separate from your associations, or as disassociable from perception is funny to me. No matter how idealised you get about values, they are embedded in the fabric of mind which is an association machine which constantly takes a stream of cosnciousness and binds the things there to what has previously been there.

the challenge, as far as I am concerned is to make your way along building associations that assist in clarity.

being clear and still perceiving, ie not shutting down your receptivity, being alive and having personal values, that include being a person as well as being capable of abstract thought is a good direction IMO.

in that way you are both entering the same path from different directions, though the path as you perceive it is compromised by terms like "acceptance" and "values", which put some distance between yourself and your self.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8658727 -

Necessary means that if the so called necessary element was missing things would not work properly. It means it cannot be absent.

Right. Everything that is here is necessary because it is here.

I don't worry to much whether it's understood or not.

Yes everybody decides what is right and wrong. I would just be a lot more content if I didn't get attached to my personal judgments. Everything is the way it is because it is that way. There is great freedom in accepting that IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #8659041 -

Icelander said:
Everything is the way it is because it is that way.


now you are talking like a stoner!
cause and effect become blurred
you got your moments layered, big guy?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8659427 -

I am a stoner or something like it and I say what I mean.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #8659720 -

You may be "something like it", but your NOT a stoner. I don't know what you are, but calling you a stoner seems wrong.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The Greatest Challenge [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8662042 -

True. I prefer my battle axe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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