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Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived
    #8497583 -

Well guys I promised I would show you something special behind all of this zero point energy talk.  Here is the first patent in US History of a legitimized ZPE Extractor otherwise known as a overunity device.  Read it and be pleased. You can find it here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7379286.html the name of the patent is Quantum Vacuum Energy Extraction it is a new patent and it is put out by Bernard Haisch who I have been telling you guys about and also Garrett Moddel who is Professor of Electrical Engineering at Colorado University.  So ya it's real, what do you have guys have to say about my crazy theories now?


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8497641 -

while I haven't looked at it yet, I briefly read the abstract and he makes it clear that it is 'consistent with the conservation of energy'

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: TheCow]
    #8497921 -

Great. What kind of weapons are they going to build with that?


--------------------
Encourage Critical Thinking




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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8498907 -

> Here is the first patent in US History of a legitimized ZPE Extractor otherwise known as a overunity device.

The US patent office will not issue patents on over unity claims.  Also, a patent does not mean that something works.  There have been thousands upon thousands of patents issued for non-functional devices.

> So ya it's real, what do you have guys have to say about my crazy theories now?

Real doesn't mean functional... and the crazy theories aren't yours, but belong to others, from what I can tell.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8498971 -

Seuss said:
  Also, a patent does not mean that something works


yep, thank you


There's a shitload of patents, in chemistry in particular, for all manner of improbable reactions and methods.  Doesn't mean shit excpet nobody could find some preexisting claim in the files and the method appears to be novel.  The patent office isn't like some journal that will demand reproducibility or thoroughly vet questionable claims (ideally).

You want to see the patent office's insanity, start looking at biochem/tech patents.  All sorts of bizzare claims whereby some guy owns the correlation between a chemical in vivo and some pathology.  You order a generic test for that chemical, think in your mind that the result suggests some condition, and you've commited patent infringment, apparently.

The supreme court had a case regarding this bullshit a few years ago but refused to do anything for some procedural reasons.

Patents mean nothing, pure legal nonsense.

® Johnm214 Industries.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: johnm214]
    #8499370 -

Ya of course the patent might not be real but if you actually read through it makes perfect sense. Also do a check on these guys background and you'll realize that they are the heads of companies like Phiar corp for example.  Basically that company will completely own the semiconductor market as well as the energy market but hey if you guys want to continue to be skeptics go right ahead I'll be cruising around on my spaceship in the meantime.  Also I said they are my crazy theories because I'm the only one that's been talking about these guys on this site not because I came up with any of it but I do understand it very well myself. Oh and about the crazy hydrogen on demand idea that I told you about thats going commercial now too so check out Ronn motor corporation.  Or can just click here to get to the recent news article about them http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9960833-54.html?tag=cd.blog

Edited by buddhahoodlum (06/08/08 09:30 AM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8499660 -

Listen, like someone else has told you, the abstract SAYS in very plain English that this in no way violates any energy laws.  It's not free energy, or zero point energy, or lattice energy, or whatever you're calling it this week.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8500355 -

Really Madtowntripper obviously you have no understanding of the Casimir force or anything to do with Zero Point Energy for that matter so I won't even dignify you with a response.  Go read the patent again is all I will say and then get back to me when you feel refreshed.  And actually just because a patent doesn't say that it is breaking the law of conservation of energy doesn't mean that it isn't or that it is fully understand by modern science yet. Meaning as of right now this is the only device ever devised that can do what it can do so ya please stop with the negative banter and actually read whats put in front of you.  I'm not asking for any praise I just want people to know about this technology that's all.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (06/08/08 03:05 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8500608 -

buddhahoodlum said:
Really Madtowntripper obviously you have no understanding of the Casimir force or anything to do with Zero Point Energy for that matter so I won't even dignify you with a response.  Go read the patent again is all I will say and then get back to me when you feel refreshed.  And actually just because a patent doesn't say that it is breaking the law of conservation of energy doesn't mean that it isn't or that it is fully understand by modern science yet. Meaning as of right now this is the only device ever devised that can do what it can do so ya please stop with the negative banter and actually read whats put in front of you.  I'm not asking for any praise I just want people to know about this technology that's all.


How can you say that you won't dignify it with a response, while you are giving a long response....?  :smirk:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8500636 -

I dont believe it at all, but I didnt understand the link once I got passed the history lesson.  Where are the published, peer review papers?  Where is the prototype?  If its not over unity, where does the energy come from?  (Because zero point is just that, the zero point.)  Bah, never mind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #8500768 -

Are you guys seriously outright dismissing the claims of the professor of electrical engineering and computer engineering at CU because if you are then that's really laughable.  Yes it is overunity because your taking the energy from the zero point energy field and no it's not breaking the law of conservation of energy as is stated in the patent.  Also I wasn't dignifying him with a response that was a response to someone else sorry. Is there anyone out there that would like to talk about this rather than saying I don't believe it right off the bat?


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8501240 -

:snowman:


--------------------
You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8501778 -

It's been said before, but....bad troll is bad.  You've been proven wrong so many times at this point, with the ZPE shit, I've lost count.  This either means you're extremely dense, stubborn, or trolling. I simply cannot deduce anything else.


:shrug:


--------------------
~Happy sailing~

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8501918 -

I will be the first to jump on the bandwagon once I see it built AND working.  It hasn't been done yet, and you can easily patent ideas, even if they never come into fruition, you can still own the patent on it.

I don't count on it ever happening.  I do have one question for you.

If this did work, don't you think it would be a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MORE HUMONGOUS discovery, be all over the news in every country, and solve all the energy problems, one of the largest problems facing the globe?

peace

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: supra]
    #8502033 -

No, because he thinks the oil company control such things and routinely kills people who come up with these ideas.

Seriously.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: supra]
    #8502056 -

You must remember that this is a brand new patent that I randomly stumbled upon.  And yes I'm pretty sure they have a working prototype that they will show soon enough.  Proven wrong Rune how is that? Considering this is being done by professors of elite schools and businesses I would think that they would have alot to lose in terms of reputation by putting out junk patents.  Also if you look at the patent it says their investors are Menlo Ventures and who's on the board of that company oh thats right a bunch of Electrical Engineers that know all about this kind of stuff imagine that.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8502360 -

buddhahoodlum said:
You must remember that this is a brand new patent that I randomly stumbled upon.


The patent was filed  on 09/26/2005 , nearly 3 years ago.

So, show us a working machine that does what the patent describes.


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Anno]
    #8502666 -

Garret Moddel is a real professor, with a real degree and 120 publications and 25 patents, according to his CV. Google Scholar found 112 publications, close enough. However, they all seem to deal with optoelectronics, rather than quantum energy and when I look for the keyword 'casimir' (which the patent uses a lot) there is only one result: the patent.

A professor with plenty of science experience, who has everything to gain by publishing his work ("publish or perish") has for some reason chosen not to publish his data regarding this supposed device?

The patent office has much lower standards than journals. They'll basically accept anything without proof that it works. This device does not exist.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8502787 -

Quote:
buddhahoodlum said: Oh and about the crazy hydrogen on demand idea that I told you about thats going commercial now too so check out Ronn motor corporation.html[/url]


Commercial or not, it can't work as advertised.
You need substantially  more energy to create the hydrogen and oxygen than you gain from burning them again. And  since the car is supposed to provide the electrical energy to split water, you gain nothing from it. A commercial hype creator, nothing more.


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Anno]
    #8502856 -

:beatadeadhorse:


--------------------
You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8502964 -

buddhahoodlum said:
  Also I said they are my crazy theories because I'm the only one that's been talking about these guys on this site not because I came up with any of it but I do understand it very well myself. Oh and about the crazy hydrogen on demand idea that I told you about thats going commercial now too so check out Ronn motor corporation.  Or can just click here to get to the recent news article about them http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9960833-54.html?tag=cd.blog



wow

From their website (the front page of which has grammatical errors...

Quote:
What is the fuel efficiency of a vehicle with G3?
It depends on the vehicle being tested and it system, such as engine size, driving conditions and vehicle maintenance. When you purchase a G3 you purchase a complete system designed to provide maxim efficiency. We have consistently achieved over 100% increase in fuel economy. With no loss of power or torque.


Quote:
How often do I have to add water ?
We recommend adding water every time you go in for a Oil change maybe every 3,000-6,000 miles. I litre of water should give you about 3,000-4,000 miles. We recommend at least a 2 litre water reservoir.


So in my car that gets 30 miles to a gallon I can expect a 100% increase in fuel economy with 1 L of water per 3,000 miles?

So normally I'd get 100 gallons to 3,000 miles or so.  So apparently a liter of water has the energy equivalent of half that, or 50 gallons of gasoline?  That's a pretty neat trick  Driving 1,500 miles on a liter of water.

But oops... from the cnet article:
Quote:
"This means that as we're driving down the road, we're producing hydrogen in real time, and blending it with gasoline at a ratio of 30 to 40 percent," he said.


So somehow that liter of water will produce a 35% blend with 50 gallons of gas over 3,000 miles?  That means they get 105 pounds of hydrogen out of a liter, or about 2.2 pounds, of water (presuming gas weighs 6 pounds a gallon.)  What fun :smile:  (Why did Cnet even print those claims, wtf?)

And you're claiming this company vindicates you?  You defend this?  =
For those interested in investing
http://www.hydrorunner.com/investors.html

 
Quote:
Investors
Hydrorunner is currently seeking joint ventures, strategic partnerships and distributors for current development and consideration.

We at Hydrorunner are excited about being an integral part of the upcoming hydrogen economy, and look forward to partnering with individuals and entities that share our common vision for a "clean green " planet earth.


This is not a solicitation for public funding and is in no way to be considered as such


hmmm... somebody's not to keen on dealing w/ the securities laws

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: johnm214]
    #8503726 -

Good one ^

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #8507582 -

Anno your right about when the patent was filed but wrong about when it was published check the date again.  Also since it's so new that is why we haven't seen a commercial product yet. Oh and did you actually read the patent and comprehend most of it. If so then there really isn't much left to be understood now is there?  For more on my theories having to do with Stan Meyer go here http://www.aias.us/ and more specifically here http://www.aias.us/documents/uft/a63rdpaper.pdf

Here john this is coming from a comment off that same news article I directed you to and it explains what I think is improving your gas mileage so drastically.  I on the other hand know the exact mechanism behind it that improves the combustion. The hho gas bonds with your gasolines hydrocarbons to improve combustion therefore improving your already horribly inefficient Internal Combustion engine.
So its not how much hydrogen you add that makes the big difference here but mainly its bonding capabilities to other fuels.  If you want a thorough analysis of this gas to gain a better grasp on the science behind it I suggest you go here.
http://www.santilli-galilei.com/HHO-IJHE-I.pdf

CNET.COM Commenter

I thought they were saying that the fuel is more completely combusted with hydrogen injection than the combustion of normal fuel air mixture. That has nothing to do with any laws of thermodynamics, or energy of hydrogen, etc. I thought everyone knew that typical combustion leaves uncombusted fuel or an ineffecient burn rate, etc. Don't you people even know how spark plugs effect horse power or how different air mixtures and swirl patterns effect horse power ? Aint you heard of hemis ? Aint you ever messed with timing, shaved heads, etc ? The goal for maximum horsepower is total combustion at the peak of the stroke and a combustion chamber designed to enhance this process. minimizing uncombusted fuel will of course reduce pollution. I'm not saying I believe there claims on mileage increase, but I do know improved combustion can increase horse power without violatating any kind of physics. So the proof in the pudding will be when they deliver actual products that can then be tested quite easily to see if their claims are accurate. Right now, I'm betting against their claims but we should have proof soon enough. I wouldn't invest a dollar till there is independent proof of their claims. 



Oh and their investors are Ronn Motor Corp ever heard of em?  That's a pretty pitiful argument that you just wasted your time on John. I just answered all of your questions in about 2 seconds.  If you want to know more maybe you should actually try out it for yourself and see the difference. I just got mine and I sublimated some tungsten with it the other day and will be installing it in my car shortly. Try looking again on youtube there are thousands of unique experimenters on their now demonstrating this.  Like my new quote in my sig!!!!


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (06/10/08 02:48 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8507700 -

> I thought everyone knew that typical combustion leaves uncombusted fuel or an ineffecient burn rate, etc.

Conservation of energy cannot be violated, etc.  You use A joules of energy to create 2B moles of hydrogen and B moles of oxygen.  You feed 3B moles of stoichiometric balanced hydrogen and oxygen into the engine where they burn, combining back into water.  What, exactly, does the uncombusted (sic) fuel effeciently burn with?  The slow learners among us, such as myself, would love to know.  (Sarcasm aside, perhaps I am missing something?)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8507842 -

Seuss I told you that everything technical was explained in the santilli pdf I provided you with.  Now go read it and if have any more questions get back to me. Also it isn't completely stoichiometric like you think which is also explained in the document.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8507886 -

There's a massive difference between improving the efficiency of an internal combustion engine and making a zero-point energy device. The former is a feasible invention of great value. The latter is a notorious source of hoaxes. I don't see any reason why this device is not a hoax like the rest of them.

A patent does not mean something works.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8507940 -

Please go to tell that to Garrett Moddel, Zouden I'm sure he'd completely agree lmao!!!!  And I never said that the hho gas generator was a zero point energy extractor in itself but when you apply all of the components of Stan Meyers system it is.  However Bernard Haisch's and Garrett Moddel's invention is most certainly a zero point energy extractor the first of it's kind.  I'm suprised no one here is questioning Phiar Corps semiconductor technology which is equally as extravagant of an invention.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8507973 -

Wait. Stanley Meyer? THE Stanley Meyer, hoaxster and fraud?

Quote:
The water fuel cell is a device invented by American Stanley Meyer, which he claimed could convert water into its component elements, hydrogen and oxygen, using less energy than can be obtained by the subsequent combustion of those elements, a process that results the reconstitution of the water molecules. Thus, if the device operated as claimed, the combustion cycle would start and end in the same state while extracting usable energy, thereby violating the first law of thermodynamics and allowing operation as a perpetual motion machine. Meyer's claims about the Water Fuel Cell and the car that it powered were found to be fraudulent by an Ohio court in 1996.


Quote:
In 1996, inventor Stanley Meyer was sued by investors to whom he had sold dealerships, offering the right to do business in Water Fuel Cell technology. According to The Times, Meyer claimed in court that his invention "opened the way for a car which would 'run on water', powered simply by a car battery."[1] The car would even run perpetually without fuel since the energy needed to continue the "fracturing" was low enough for the engine's dynamo to recharge the car's battery.[1] His car was due to be examined by the expert witness Michael Laughton, Professor of Electrical Engineering at Queen Mary, University of London and Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. However, Meyer made what Professor Laughton considered a "lame excuse" on the days of examination and did not allow the test to proceed.[1] The Water Fuel Cell, on the other hand, was examined by three expert witnesses in court who found that there "was nothing revolutionary about the cell at all and that it was simply using conventional electrolysis".[1]

On the basis of the evidence the court found Meyer guilty of "gross and egregious fraud" and ordered to repay the investors their $25,000.[1]


Meyer was nothing more than a scam artist, like hundreds of other people who've claimed to invented a "free energy", "over unity" or "zero point energy" device.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8508028 -

I can guarantee that no matter what you say, or what you post, or how much proof you have that buddhahoodlum will never admit that you are right.

He wants to believe very very badly and possesses an apparently infinite capacity for self-delusion.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8508093 -

buddhahoodlum said:
Please go to tell that to Garrett Moddel, Zouden I'm sure he'd completely agree lmao!!!!  And I never said that the hho gas generator was a zero point energy extractor in itself but when you apply all of the components of Stan Meyers system it is.  How 



I still want to  know how you get a hundred pounds of hydrogen out of two pounds of water.... or how you run a car 1500 miles on a liter of water.

That is all

by my quick and dirty rounded calcs I get 32 MJ energy from 1 liter water converted into hydrogen and oxygen and combusted with complete efficiency and  no energetic costs to the conversion.

presuming 48 kJ/(g gasoline) for gas in a car, that means 32 MJ is  from the liter of water is about 666 grams of gasoline


So presuming the hydrogen is generated with no energetic cost (fuel cell is completely free energetically) you get about 666 grams of gasoline worth of energy which is about two-tenths  of a gallon.

So presuming this thing makes hydrogen completely free of all cost, you still have to justify how they get .2 gallons gas worth of energy to make 1500 miles of work moving my car, as claimed in my previous post.

How?

and if they can do this, what's teh point of the hydrogen fuel cell?  Just make cars that get 7.5 k miles on a gallon, world energy problems solved.

Edited by johnm214 (06/10/08 05:32 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8508134 -

Madtowntripper said:
I can guarantee that no matter what you say, or what you post, or how much proof you have that buddhahoodlum will never admit that you are right.

He wants to believe very very badly and possesses an apparently infinite capacity for self-delusion.


agreed. :beatadeadhorse:


--------------------
You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: iateshaggy]
    #8508145 -

I think its all a big joke and he doesnt really believe that crap.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #8508164 -

perhaps, but I've now compared the enthalpy of combustion of gas and same for hydrogen, and I'm going to get a patent on the conversion.

If I could somehow make the names "gasoline" and "hydrogen" sound like biochemical processes I bet I'd succeed.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8508298 -

buddhahoodlum said:
Seuss I told you that everything technical was explained in the santilli pdf I provided you with. 
Now go read it and if have any more questions get back to me.


WoW, what a complete lack of respect....  :nono:  :nonono:
For shame.... 

For shame....    :thumbdown:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8509640 -

Is that all you got to offer guys you still haven't found any way to refute that patent I laid forth.  And now this post is turning into really lame rants that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.  One day all students will be taught about these men and the principles they stood for which include innovation, thought integrity , and above all else lack of greed.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8509915 -

Um, patents don't need refuting. They need proof that they work.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8509949 -

Quote:
buddhahoodlum said: And now this post is turning into really lame rants that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.


Why don't you answer johnm214's question above and keep it on topic?


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8510038 -

> Seuss I told you that everything technical was explained in the santilli pdf I provided you with

*sigh*  fair enough...

From the abstract of the paper:

Quote:
It is indicated that the creation of the gaseous and combustible HHO from distilled water at atmospheric temperature and pressure occurs via a process structurally different than evaporation or separation, thus suggesting the existence of a new form 17 of water, apparently introduced in this paper for the first time, with the structure (H × H)–O where “×” represents the new magnecular bond and “−” the conventional molecular bond.


Distilled water is one of the best electrical insulators known and cannot be used for electrolysis.  Oh, and wtf is magnecular?

Still on the first page:

Quote:
More recently, there has been considerable research in the separation of water into a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gases. These studies were initiated by Yull Brown in 1977 via equipment generally referred to as electrolyzers and the resulting gas is known as “Brown gas” (see patents [2]).


Sorry, but Mr. Brown was almost two centuries too late to claim credit for this.  Look up William Nicholson and Sir Anthony Carlisle to see who really invented 'browns gas'.

Still on page 1...

Quote:
the Brown gas is defined as a combustible gas composed of conventional hydrogen and conventional oxygen gases having the exact stochiometric ratio of 2/3 (or 66.66% by volume) of hydrogen and 1/3 (or 33.33% by volume) of oxygen.


Finally, somebody admitting that there is nothing special, magical, or mystical about this silly "browns gas".  It is nothing more than a mixture of 2 moles of hydrogen gas for every 1 mole of oxygen has.  People have been making "browns gas" since the mid 1800's.

On to page 2...

Quote:
In this paper the author (a physicist) presents to the chemistry community


Uh, ok...  (For those of us that read journal papers, this is a bit odd.  Authors that are published in journals don't need to spout their credentials, typically.)

Still on page 2...

Quote:
Due to the loss of electric polarization, polymerization and other features, the above new form of the water molecule permits a plausible representation of the creation of the HHO gas from liquid water with out the evaporation energy. Its unstable character also permits a plausible interpretation on the experimental measurements of all anomalous features of the HHO gas.


Ah, so he made a new form of water that doesn't require energy to initiate a phase change.

Still on page 2...

Quote:
Samples of the HHO gas can be obtained at any time by contacting Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc. at their website www.[removed by Seuss].com.


Is this is a scientific journal or an advertisement rag?

At this point, I want to know more about this guy, as he is quickly losing credibility.  What do I find? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruggero_Santilli)

Quote:
Although Santilli has published papers in the mainstream scientific literature, a large amount of his work has dealt with his so-called hadronic mechanics, a novel fundamental theory of the universe which is not generally accepted by the physics community. Santilli, a voluminous writer, has published hundreds of papers and a number of books on this and related subjects, including applications to chemistry, superconductivity, biology, and cosmology.[2][3][4]

Most of his work on this theory has been published in Hadronic Journal, a journal of which Santilli himself is the founder and chief editor. Santilli has also established the journals Hadronic Journal Supplement and Algebras, Groups and Geometries, in which he publishes papers by himself and others. These journals are published by Hadronic Press, a firm of which Santilli's spouse Carla Santilli is the sole officer/director.[5]


But it gets better...

Quote:
Santilli claims to have developed novel fuels, named MagneGas and MagneHydrogen: these names are trademarks of Hadronic Press. [6] [7] [8] They are produced by plasma arc gasification of liquid waste. [9] Santilli claims that these fuels are composed of magnecules. [10][11][12] These hypothetical magnecules are a type of chemical species theoretically proposed by Santilli, distinguished from better-known species by containing a novel type of bond called a "magnecular bond", which he claims consists of atoms held together by magnetic fields which arise from toroidal polarization of their electron orbitals.[12] [13] Neither these claims nor the existence of magnecules have been generally accepted by the chemistry community.  Magnecules have also been invoked to justify novel unverified claims about oxyhydrogen gas, which he calls "HHO gas".

This paper[14] by Santilli claims (e,g, on its p. 21) that many types of magnecules have been identified.

Santilli's theory has been discredited by other scientists as having 'many serious misinterpretations, and misunderstandings of the “data” presented... [the paper] creates some doubt as to whether [the author] actually knows the difference between a gas chromatograph (GC) and a mass spectrometer (MS).' [15]


I didn't make it past page 1.5; sorry, but it is bunk "science".


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8510067 -

Did I mention he is a PROFESSOR

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Boom]
    #8510090 -

> Did I mention he is a PROFESSOR

I've met some very stupid professors, some even had phds, in my time.  Some professors are good at teaching, but not at research.  Some are good at research, but not at teaching.  Very few are good at both teaching and research, but unfortunately, quite a few are pathetic at both... they stayed in academia because nobody else would hire them (I suspect).

(I'm not making any implications towards Ruggero Santilli in the above blurb; just showing that 'being a professor' doesn't mean a person is credible just as 'being a cop' doesn't mean a person is honest.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8510155 -

Wait, so he created his own journal to publish his papers describing a type of molecular bond that he 'discovered'? And he has a trademark on the name?

This guy is a fraud, plain and simple.

Thank you, Seuss, for taking the time for this, though it may be wasted on the OP.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8510171 -

> This guy is a fraud, plain and simple.

He has some interesting work... though it is mostly based upon patents from the late 1800's... (thus not really original).  Unfortunately, his 2% interesting work is overshadowed by his 98% bogus arm waving.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8510199 -

He certainly would not be the first intelligent man to waste his talents on 'free energy.' Such a shame.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8511742 -

Distilled water is most certainly electrically conductive so sorry your flat out wrong on that assumption.  Go jump in a bath of distilled water with a toaster and then get back to me lmao!!!!

Magnecular is just like it sounds magnetized molecular bonds.

Excerpts from the paper

However, as soon as the strong electric polarization of
the molecule H–O–H is removed, the strong attraction
3 between opposite polarities of the magnetic fields of the
polarized H atoms become dominant over the Coulomb
5 repulsion of the charges, resulting in a new configuration
of the water molecule depicted in Figs. 19 and 20
7 apparently presented in this paper for the first time.

Alternatively, the loss of electric polarization in the
transition from H–O–H to (H × H)–O is expected to
11 cause the loss of the processes permitting the very existence
of the water molecule, such as the hydrogen
13 bridges between dimers O–H of different molecules.
Transition to a gaseous form is then consequential, thus
15 confirm the plausibility of the new form of water (H ×
H)–O proposed in this paper.

It is well established in quantum mechanics that 55
toroidal polarizations of the orbitals of the hydrogen
atom as in the configuration of Fig. 13 create very 57
strong magnetic fields with a symmetry axis perpendicular
to the plane of the toroid, and with a value of 59
said magnetic field sufficient for the creation of the
new chemical species of magnecules.

The capability by the HHO gas to melt instantaneously
tungsten and bricks is the strongest evidence on the existence in the HHO gas of basically new chemical species that cannot possibly have a valance bond, since a mixture of 2 3 19 H2 and 13 O2 cannot melt instantly tungsten and bricks, 21 as any interested chemist is encouraged to verify.



Oh but I thought judging by your previous calculations browns gas doesn't even exist Seuss?


No Seuss it isn't stoichiometric can you please stop misinterpreting data thanks.


The most important part you missed.

Therefore, we have the anomaly of 12.3 − 11.2 = 19 1g/mol, corresponding to 8.8% anomalous increase in
the value of the specific weight. Rather than the predicted 66.66% of H2 the gas contains only 60.79% of
the species with 2 atomic mass units (amu), and rather
23 than having 33.33% of O2 the gas contains only 30.39%
of the species with 32 amu.
25 These measurements provide direct experimental evidence
that the HHO gas is not composed of a sole mix27
ture of H2 and O2, but has additional heavier species.
Moreover, the HHO gas used in the tests was produced from distilled water. Therefore, there cannot be
an excess of O2 over H2 to explain the increased specific
31 weight. The above measurement establishes the presence
in HHO of 5.87% of hydrogen and 2.94% oxy33
gen bonded together into species heavier than water, as
identified below via mass spectroscopy and other ana35
lytic measurements.


And then you completely dishonor a distinguished professor nothing new here.  Do you realize that Hadronic press is one of the most elite physics journals published today?  http://www.hadronicpress.com/edit_board.htm

Edited by buddhahoodlum (06/11/08 03:47 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8511878 -

Quote:
Distilled water is most certainly electrically conductive so sorry your flat out wrong on that assumption.  Go jump in a bath of distilled water with a toaster and then get back to me

  Pure water is electrically an insulator.  The only reason you think water conducts electricity is because non-pure water has dissolved ions in it.

Regardless....  :kingtard:

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #8511913 -

Well your half right distilled water does not conduct electricity by itself but it can most certainly be used for electrolysis which is what Seuss was saying it could not be used for.  In the absence of dissolved electrolytes, distilled water will not conduct electricity, so no electrolysis occurs but when the heck are you not gonna add electrolyte for electrolysis which is what controls your amperage for the most part?


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #8511918 -

Yes, distilled water does not conduct electricity. This is a verifiable fact.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8511919 -

buddhahoodlum said:
lmao!!!!



Not as much as I, I'm sure.:smirk:


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #8511928 -

Actually maybe I am right http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmnPakaI701Y


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8511972 -

u know, if u fill a tub up w/ distilled water, then jump in, the water isn't distilled b/c of all the paticles and salts that dissolve in it from your skin.

btw, no, u are still wrong.


--------------------
You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: iateshaggy]
    #8512046 -

Save your arguments and focus on the larger point at hand which is the 10% anomalous gas and not the purported stoichiometric mix like Seuss thinks and misinterprets for his own self delusion.  But thanks for proving I'm right Iamshaggy since that is what I said would happen with the toaster idea correct?


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (06/16/08 05:05 AM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8512387 -

> Distilled water is most certainly electrically conductive so sorry your flat out wrong on that assumption.

:rofl2:

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

> Actually maybe I am right

No, actually, you are not.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8512445 -

Well, doesn't the autolysis of water provide some means to transfer current?  Would be a very limited current,  but its something....

so there'd be around 2 x10 to -7 ions in distilled water at STP, half hydronium, half hydroxide

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: johnm214]
    #8512876 -

i thought i told him jumping in a tub of water un-distills it?  it is impossible to jump in a tub of undistilled water and it be distilled, just like zero point energy.


--------------------
You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: iateshaggy]
    #8513016 -

You should have looked for the Casimir Effect, not just Casimir. And yeah the whole HHO gas thing is real, sorry I didn't bother to waste my time with such nonsense, so IDK what that argument is about. Come back when you have some good evidence supporting your claims, i.e. never.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: sativa RG]
    #8514055 -

> Well, doesn't the autolysis of water provide some means to transfer current?

I don't know that anything is a perfect insulator (anymore than any gas is an ideal gas).  Regardless, pure water is a very, very poor electrical conductor.  Unfortunately, for this application, pure water is also a great solvent, meaning that it easily takes up ions and becomes conductive.

What we are talking about is called specific conductivity (or the inverse, specific resistance).  Pure water is at one end of the table and metals, such as copper, are at the other end.  Common insulators, such as rubber and glass are in the middle of the table.

Also, be careful with the term "transfer current".  I know what you mean, but it is a misleading statement.  Current, by definition, is the flow of charge.  Adding the word "transfer" makes it sound as if you are talking about the flow of the flow of charge which is not what you meant.  "Conduct" is a much better (more precise) word, in this case.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8515200 -

Seuss whats wrong you seem to be straying away from my previous points?  Could it be that maybe your the one that's wrong and I'm right oh but that could never because you falsely misinterpret everything therefore leaving nothing open for intellectual discussion.  I'm right about everything I said and slightly right about the distilled thing that has turned into another kiddy flamer contest that is very much besides the point.  Enough said I'm sure anyone that knows as much as I do about this could easily see the clear evidence of multiple anomaly's within the gas shown in that pdf.  But ya Seuss unless your gonna actually answer to my side of it then what is the point of even arguing about this. Your completely self-deluded at this point.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8515579 -

Seuss whats wrong you seem to be straying away from my previous points?
You original points were debated thoroughly already.  Everybody else came to the conclusion they were all bogus.  Now your digressions and side notes are bieng debated, and also being shown to be incorrect.

But you already knew that, didnt you  :wink:

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8516054 -

Quote:
Your completely self-deluded at this point.


Says the guy with the quote about water-fuelled cars in his signature.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8516215 -

buddhahoodlum said:
Seuss whats wrong you seem to be straying away from my previous points?  Could it be that maybe your the one that's wrong and I'm right oh but that could never because you falsely misinterpret everything therefore leaving nothing open for intellectual discussion.  I'm right about everything I said and slightly right about the distilled thing that has turned into another kiddy flamer contest that is very much besides the point.  Enough said I'm sure anyone that knows as much as I do about this could easily see the clear evidence of multiple anomaly's within the gas shown in that pdf.  But ya Seuss unless your gonna actually answer to my side of it then what is the point of even arguing about this. Your completely self-deluded at this point.


I could use a free energy machine, it would come in pretty handy....
When is it planned that a working model be made, tested, and ready for purchase....?


>^;;^<


Edit:  Washed my post out with soap....
Certain disrespect pisses me off - it's my problem, I am working on it....

Edited by PhanTomCat (06/12/08 05:12 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8516263 -

Let's all be nice, please (myself included).


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8516551 -

My point proven exactly thanks.  The quote in my sig is from Jules Verne have you heard of em?  I mean really do I even have to defend that lmao!!!  Maybe you should try contacting Garrett Moddel. I'm sure he would be happy to discuss the commercial side of things with you in detail.  If you would like I can even call him myself if your not grown up enough yet.  Oh and maybe just maybe 3 professors with Phd's that are on my side of logical explanation are right and you could all be wrong. I'm off to go sublimate some tungsten with my water torch get back to me in 10,000 years when you guys figure out how to do it too.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (06/12/08 06:09 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8516619 -

buddhahoodlum said:
My point proven exactly thanks.  The quote in my sig is from Jules Verne have you heard of em?  I mean really do I even have to defend that lmao!!!  Maybe you should try contacting Garrett Moddel. I'm sure he would be happy to discuss the commercial side of things with you in detail.  If you would like I can even call him myself if your not grown up enough yet.  Oh and maybe just maybe 3 professors with Phd's that are on my side of logical explanation are right and you could all be wrong. I'm off to go sublimate some tungsten with my water torch get back to me in 10,000 years when you guys figure out how to do it too.


I am not saying that you are right or wrong....    :smirk:
I commented above that you were disrespectful in your tact, and that opinion has not changed....

Simple dates would be sufficient for the following questions....
When is it planned that a working model be made and tested....?
And when will they be ready for purchase....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8517531 -

Jules Verne was a science fiction author, not a scientist. What did he know about water-powered cars?
Quote:
I'm off to go sublimate some tungsten with my water torch


I would really, really like to see you do that.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8517577 -

Yeah, L Ron Hubbard was a Sci-fi writer, but teh Xenuz is real!!!111! [/SARS chasm]

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8518522 -

zouden said:
Jules Verne was a science fiction author, not a scientist. What did he know about water-powered cars?
Quote:
I'm off to go sublimate some tungsten with my water torch


I would really, really like to see you do that.


Sublimate... oxidize... it is all the same, more or less.  (Pretending to "sublimate tungsten" seems to be a big hit with the browns gas crowd.  For those that don't know, tungsten oxidizes easily when heated, and tungsten oxide evaporates at a lower temperature than tungsten, so when you heat tungsten in an oxygen rich environment such as air, it appears to sublime as it oxidizes and the oxide evaporates away.  Same thing can happen with aluminum.  Watch an aluminum can burn in a camp fire for an easy demonstration.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8520510 -

Quote:
I'm off to go sublimate some tungsten with my water torch



See who cares if the torch burns hot?  I really don't see the relevance at all to using it to power a car or anything else.  The torch surely isn't some marvelously efficient device if its producing its own fuel and oxidant.

And yeah, considering tungsten has a melting point listed I doubt you're having much success w/ your sublimation.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: johnm214]
    #8521507 -

Hey Seuss, that's quite interesting. Does that mean that the only way to melt tungsten is under anoxia?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8522433 -

> Does that mean that the only way to melt tungsten is under anoxia?

Nope, you can melt it in a furnace.  However, you will lose some as the top layer oxidizes away.  (thus usually done under inert gas.) With a torch, the heated area is so small that the oxygen in the atmosphere is enough to oxidize it as it melts.  This is also why the common light-bulb burns out if the glass bulb breaks... as soon as oxygen from the air hits the hot tungsten filament, the tungsten oxidizes, the oxide evaporates, and the filament breaks.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8522453 -

Neat. Thanks for explaining that! You just earned some more mushrooms (not that you need them lol).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8522949 -

I enjoyed and benefited from that explanation as well.

Thanks.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8523053 -

well, i have been reading this thread for quite some time now,
seems that these patents for ZPE do seem to be a fraud.

as for melting tungsten, i use some tungsten welding rods in my glass blowing setup, on a propane oxygen torch. i have on occasion gotten them red smoking hot, but never managed to melt one.


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8528964 -

First of all Seuss yes it completely sumblimates the tungsten not just the tungsten oxide which if you happen to look at its wikipedia definition.  It clearly states that when exposed to hydrogen gas the tungsten oxide reduces back to the pure metal which would happen very quickly with a torch I can assure you.  So sorry another one of your myth's debunked.

Capatalistc Nomad I suggest you start from here before you start making assumptions http://ece.colorado.edu/~moddel/QEL/ZPE.html

http://www.manyone.net/about/management/bernard-haisch.html


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (06/16/08 05:00 AM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #8529052 -

buddhahoodlum said:
Capatalistc Nomad I suggest you start from here before you start making assumptions http://ece.colorado.edu/~moddel/QEL/ZPE.html



Hold on, that's just Moddel's website which is completely devoid of any useful information. And if he's a fraud (which Nomad and the rest of us strongly suspect) then why would we trust his website?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8529056 -

> i have on occasion gotten them red smoking hot, but never managed to melt one.

Tungsten has the second highest melting point of any metal.  The smoke you see are actually the tungsten oxides burning off the hot tungsten rod.  If you let it go long enough, eventually the tungsten rod would completely burn away.

> seems that these patents for ZPE do seem to be a fraud.

I could argue it both ways.  Pretty much anything can be patented.  I could patent a 'hoop of air' to keep people dry during rainstorms.  Just because I get a patent doesn't mean that my 'hoop of air' works.  (And yes, USPTO would issue a patent for it assuming that nobody else has already applied for one.)

The real question is why did they patent this stuff.  On one hand, they might be trying to protect their research should it turn out to actually work someday.  On the other hand, they might be trying to make it sound like they have something to entice investors.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8529088 -

> And if he's a fraud (which Nomad and the rest of us strongly suspect) then why would we trust his website?

http://www.paranormalresearchforum.com/speakers.htm:
Quote:
Prof. Garret Moddel "The Psychic Edges of Science"

Professor Garret Moddel has approached his strong sense of curiosity of psychic phenomena through the critical analysis one would expect from an engineering professor with a physics background. As professor in the Electrical and Computer Engineering Dept. at the University of Colorado, Boulder Prof. Moddel conducts research on psi* phenomena at the PsiPhen Laboratory in conjunction with Naropa University. Last year’s and next year’s “Edges of Science” courses also conduce to research on telepathic, telekinetic, psychokinetic, precognitive and other paranormal matters. Prof. Moddel is thoroughly involved with new exotic technologies such as ultra-high speed metal-insulator devices, and zero-point energy extraction being investigated in his Quantum Engineering Laboratory. Nov. 21, 2007


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3797/is_200603/ai_n17172588:
Quote:
Many scientific breakthroughs came from scholars willing to take risks, says Garret Moddel, an electrical engineering professor at the University of Colorado who joined the SSE about five years ago. "There's really a need to venture out into uncharted territory."

Moddel, who has degrees from Stanford and Harvard, says he decided to venture into terra incognita and perform research on paranormal phenomena-precognition, telekinesis, clairvoyance-after reading some of the literature and finding it convincing. He's published a paper that concludes that such phenomena may be consistent with the second law of thermodynamics.


http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/02/23/news/17454.shtml
Quote:
Moddel will continue testing the effect of physical variables such as temperature and sound on the statistical anomalies identified during PEAR's research, in addition to the natural causes of these phenomena. He began this line of research as a side project after overcoming initial doubts five years ago, he said.

"I was the biggest skeptic to begin with," Moddel said. "I realized that there was a conflict between my own experiences and [the PEAR study's] logic, and that I must choose logic, as my brain could easily be fooling itself."

A former PEAR researcher, John Valentino, founded the company Psyleron in 2005 to help feature the lab's research by making relevant products such as random event generators and informational media available to the public and other researchers.

"They've got some really good empirical data, but it's considered by our social norms to be a taboo topic," Valentino said. "I hope in the future that people will be able to do their own experiments and make their own decisions."

Critics of the PEAR lab's research abound, however. At the forefront of those within the scientific community is Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland and member of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. He wrote "Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud" and has studied the credibility of a variety of "questionable" studies over the past 25 years.

"Work in [PEAR's] area has been going on in a scientific fashion for as long as 2,000 years, but has not convinced anybody but its true believers," Park said. "I followed the [PEAR] laboratory over the years, and as the scientific community goes it was an embarrassment, but there was no outcry against it."


I don't think he is a fraud... but he is doing research in areas that touch on meta-physical, which tend to discredit him (unfortunately, as the judgment is without cause).  Even worse, people that don't have training in science tend to jump on anything he does as proof of whatever their pet beliefs are.  They also tend to make claims in his name, which again discredit him.  For now, I will assume he is ethical, but playing with fire (with respect to his credentials).  If he starts to pump out books, then my opinion of him not being a fraud will quickly change.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8529090 -

Quote:
I could patent a 'hoop of air' to keep people dry during rainstorms.


Sir, I would like to purchase the rights to your invention


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8529772 -

> Neat. Thanks for explaining that!

A little bit more for a complete picture... A lightbulb contains a partial vacuum and sometimes, an inert gas, to prevent oxidation of the tungsten filament.  However, sometimes lightbulbs still burn out.  In the reduced pressure environment, when heated, the tungsten will sublimate, skipping the liquid phase and 'out gas' from the filament.  Over time, the filament becomes thinner and thinner until it eventually breaks.

Halogen light bulbs are neat because they overcome this effect.  The gases in a  halogen bulb continually redeposit any tungsten back onto the filament (while the bulb is hot).  Because of this, the bulbs can be run much hotter.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #8530431 -

I think halogen bulbs are also made of quartz rather than glass so it can withstand the higher temperature, right? But it means you can't touch the bulb with your skin.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8531306 -

zouden said:
I think halogen bulbs are also made of quartz rather than glass so it can withstand the higher temperature, right? But it means you can't touch the bulb with your skin.


The main ingredient of glass is SiO2 - with some other oxides and/or carbonates added depending upon the application....

Quartz is SiO2....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8531354 -

Hmmm yes but the way it's made is different. Fused quartz is a much higher quality product than what you get by melting silica, because it's made with a better quality feedstock and requires an arc furnace.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8532642 -

> Quartz is SiO2....
> yes but the way it's made is different.

We always used "quartz glass" in any high temperature optics applications in the lab.  I never really stopped to think about what makes it special.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9497627 -

I just happened upon this message board and was amused to find a discussion on the zero point energy patent that Bernie Haisch and I wrote, and a lot of comments about whether I'm a fraud.  So... here's an update on the technology, and you can decide whether we're frauds or not.

The idea of pumping zero-point energy from the vacuum and using it does not break any physical laws, but as far as I know no one has clearly demonstrated it.  There are actually a number of ZPE patents out there.  Most of them make use of a Casimir cavity, in which two reflecting plates are attracted together because of ZPE.  The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.  In my mind, that can never work because the Casimir force is conservative, meaning that whatever energy you get from work it does has to be put back into the system to separate the plates.  Our patent is different in that we don't use the attractive force between the plates.  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it.

At the University my research group had a contract to look into our concept to see if it was valid.  We spent about a year developing devices and testing them.  The post-doctoral researcher in my lab who was in charge of the project was convinced that he did see energy emission, but I am doubtful.  The experiments were not clean enough and the devices we built were not reliable enough.  Therefore my judgement -- take it or leave it -- is that the technology is still unproven.  It may work, or there may be something that we overlooked in our analysis of it and the concept may not work.  The physics behind it legitimate, but it's still a high-risk, high-payoff concept.

I've had a pretty successful career so far, developing mainstream technologies in industry and academia.  The person who wrote that I'm now playing with fire was right.  Working on non-mainstream research invites a lot of criticism from people who think it must be fraudulent or stupid.  To legitimately criticize non-mainstream research, you have to do a lot of reading of the peer-reviewed research in field to understand what looks right and what doesn't.  Just throwing barbs from the side may be fun, but it doesn't really contribute to the argument.  I'm now carrying out non-mainstream research because I'm convinced that that is where the big breakthroughs will come.

Anyway, if you have comments or questions about out-of-the-ordinary concepts of mine or anyone else, why not email them directly to the inventor?  If it's a serious question or comment, you're likely to receive a serious reply.

Edited by Garret Moddel (12/26/08 02:13 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9498039 -

Quote:
The post-doctoral researcher in my lab who was in charge of the project was convinced that he did see energy emission, but I am doubtful.


Interesting - this brings a new perspective to the story. Thanks for posting and sharing your story. It must be quite a shock to see how quickly people in academia turn against you when you start making unconventional claims.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9498939 -

Garret Moddel said:
I just happened upon this message board and was amused to find a discussion on the zero point energy patent that Bernie Haisch and I wrote, and a lot of comments about whether I'm a fraud.  So... here's an update on the technology, and you can decide whether we're frauds or not.


Allow me to be the first to welcome you to the Shroomery. 

I just checked out your web page and noticed that you and I share several interests.  I have a M.Sc. in Physics/Nanoscience and am now a researcher for a small (so small I'm the only one in the lab) nano-medical company in California.  Most of my research has centered around either magnetic or fluorescent nanoparticles.  For a while after graduate school, I was teaching photonics classes as well. 

I hadn't heard of your patent or read this thread before your post but I'm definitely going to look into it in light of your comments.  Thanks for the added perspective.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #9499571 -

>nano-medical company in California

Do you prefer working in industry over academia? I'm just starting my career and I'm wondering if I'll go into industry at some point. If I don't, it'll be academia all the way.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9501106 -

Welcome to the Shroomery.  I hope you stick around.  The discussions in here can become quite interesting, though nowhere near what you would see on a 'science oriented' forum.

Quote:
The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.


This illustrates the problem I have with ZPE.  The handwaving "and then somehow" bit... In this case, the "and somehow" becomes "add energy to the system to pull the plates apart".  It is like telling somebody that they can drop a weight from a tall building and get energy... and then somehow they get the weight back to the top of the building and drop it again.

I don't immediately write off ZPE as fraud nor do I think it violates our understanding of physics.  There energy is there, if we can figure out a way to harness it.  Unfortunately, a lot of unscrupulous people use ZPE as a starting place to defraud investors.

It will be nice having somebody around that is intimate with the technology and can help differentiate between the con artists and the legitimate research.  As I said, I hope you stick around!  :smile:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9501846 -

Hey Garret glad you could chime in here and tell people the inside scoop. Have any of you guys happened to check out Blacklight Powers site lately? They just got shown on CNN Money and they are already working to build their first commercial power plant.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9502304 -

Seuss said:
Quote:
The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.


This illustrates the problem I have with ZPE.  The handwaving "and then somehow" bit... In this case, the "and somehow" becomes "add energy to the system to pull the plates apart".  It is like telling somebody that they can drop a weight from a tall building and get energy... and then somehow they get the weight back to the top of the building and drop it again.



I think he is agreeing that doesnt work.  This is what he said:
Our patent is different in that we don't use the attractive force between the plates.  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it.

I cant help but think of maxwells demon.  How would as lower zero point energy pull energy from a gas?

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9502643 -

zouden said:
>nano-medical company in California

Do you prefer working in industry over academia? I'm just starting my career and I'm wondering if I'll go into industry at some point. If I don't, it'll be academia all the way.


Honestly, I'd probably prefer academia because of the freedom.  However, there can be more money in industry and the added structure can increase your productivity in certain cases.  Working in academia has the benefit of being able to/having to teach which keeps you sharp and always learning.  A lot of industry people tend to stagnate and then move up into management.  The focus of each is somewhat different and I think I might switch back and forth for a while to keep some kind of balance...

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #9503274 -

>A lot of industry people tend to stagnate and then move up into management.

I hadn't really thought about that but it makes sense. I'm glad I asked. :cheers:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9504301 -

Seuss did you even read what he wrote?  And Zouden right now Garret is only involved in Academia since Phiar failed to get off the ground so far.  Um lets see oh Garret have you heard of Blacklight yet what do you think of it I'm extremely interested in your take on it considering it will revolutionize all of science.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (12/28/08 07:21 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9504691 -

>And Zouden right now Garret is only involved in Academia since Phiar failed to get off the ground so far so why would you ask him that? 

I didn't.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9504782 -

> Seuss did you even read what he wrote?

Yes.  I even went a step further and understood it as well.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9505178 -

Oh sry Zouden I mean Chang got confused.  And no Seuss you didn't even read the full paragraph you just jumped to conclusions.  This is what he actually said

The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.  In my mind, that can never work because the Casimir force is conservative, meaning that whatever energy you get from work it does has to be put back into the system to separate the plates.  Our patent is different in that we don't use the attractive force between the plates.  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it.

not this alone

The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.

And then you say this which shows that you didn't understand

This illustrates the problem I have with ZPE.  The handwaving "and then somehow" bit... In this case, the "and somehow" becomes "add energy to the system to pull the plates apart".  It is like telling somebody that they can drop a weight from a tall building and get energy... and then somehow they get the weight back to the top of the building and drop it again.

You see you didn't understand because you didn't read the last sentence of the paragraph which woulda explained it to ya.


But I'm sure that you already saw that DieCommie called you out on that so I'll just leave it be for now.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9505653 -

> You see you didn't understand because you didn't read the last sentence of the paragraph

*sigh*  I wasn't talking about his patent(s).  I was referring to the exact statement that I quoted and nothing more.  I was using his statement (out of context), not his patents, as an example of the kind of crap that annoys me.  If you read closely, I was not slamming him.  I know that he was not claiming the statement I quoted to be a source of free energy.  His next line of text (after the one I quoted) makes this very clear.  He says the exact same thing I said as to why it doesn't work.

Based upon his web site, it appears that he is fairly smart and I am quite certain that he understands my concern: con artists tend to use this type of hand waving (the single line I quoted, not his entire presentation) to fool people into believing that they have discovered the golden goose of free energy.  As I said, it will be nice to have another person around that help can point out this fake 'science' when it shows up.

I apologize for not being clear that I was using his one statement out of context as general example.  Again, I was not making any claims towards the person posting, the feasibility of his research, or patents, or anything else of that nature.  I was simply using his one sentence as an example.  Based upon the rest of what he wrote, I assumed that other readers would understand my intent.

> But I'm sure that you already saw that DieCommie called you out on that so I'll just leave it be for now.

Isn't that civil of you.  Thanks.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9506088 -

I knew what you were saying :shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9508172 -

^^^

I also thought it was abundantly clear as to what you were saying.  Apparently some people have a better reading comprehension than others.  Very surprising.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #9508926 -

This would be the part of the paragraph the contradicts what you said Seuss.

  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it. 

Is it really that hard to comprehend this concept?


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9509197 -

buddhahoodlum said:
  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it. 

Is it really that hard to comprehend this concept?


I dont understand it at all  :shrug:

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9509303 -

buddhahoodlum said:
Is it really that hard to comprehend this concept?


The concept, on its surface, isn't too hard to understand.  What you seem to fail to comprehend is the difference between an idea and practice.  Moddel himself wrote:

Quote:
The post-doctoral researcher in my lab who was in charge of the project was convinced that he did see energy emission, but I am doubtful.  The experiments were not clean enough and the devices we built were not reliable enough.  Therefore my judgement -- take it or leave it -- is that the technology is still unproven. 


I'm going to re-iterate my claim that you're a troll.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #9510537 -

> Is it really that hard to comprehend this concept?

Can you not read or are you trolling?

"I was referring to the exact statement that I quoted and nothing more."

Your inability to hold an intelligent dialog is starting to become annoying.  Trolling is against site rules and will result in a ban if it continues.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9510703 -

I dont understand how a gas passing through plates with lower ZPE would net usable work? :confused:

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #9511022 -

The authors abstract from the patent:
Quote:
A system is disclosed for converting energy from the electromagnetic quantum vacuum available at any point in the universe to usable energy in the form of heat, electricity, mechanical energy or other forms of power. By suppressing electromagnetic quantum vacuum energy at appropriate frequencies a change may be effected in the electron energy levels which will result in the emission or release of energy. Mode suppression of electromagnetic quantum vacuum radiation is known to take place in Casimir cavities. A Casimir cavity refers to any region in which electromagnetic modes are suppressed or restricted. When atoms enter into suitable micro Casimir cavities a decrease in the orbital energies of electrons in atoms will thus occur. Such energy will be captured in the claimed devices. Upon emergence form such micro Casimir cavities the atoms will be re-energized by the ambient electromagnetic quantum vacuum. In this way energy is extracted locally and replenished globally from and by the electromagnetic quantum vacuum. This process may be repeated an unlimited number of times. This process is also consistent with the conservation of energy in that all usable energy does come at the expense of the energy content of the electromagnetic quantum vacuum. Similar effects may be produced by acting upon molecular bonds. Devices are described in which gas is recycled through a multiplicity of Casimir cavities. The disclosed devices are scalable in size and energy output for applications ranging from replacements for small batteries to power plant sized generators of electricity.



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9511820 -

Ahh, thx.  Yea that doesnt seem like it would work to me (big surprise).

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #9516890 -

No Seuss I'm not trolling I was stating a opinion based on what I percieved you were saying.  And I'm still stickin to what I said.  The technology may still be unproven but that doesn't mean it doesn't work they just need more money to fund the experiment.  Also this technology pails in comparison to what Blacklight Power has so it really doesn't matter what happens with this.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9517390 -

Since you're such a big fan of linked articles, I will refer you to the logical fallacy I have seen you partake in dozens of times in the two crackpot threads I have read of yours.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Redstorm]
    #9529508 -
Log in to view attachment

^







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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


Edited by Learyfan (01/01/09 09:23 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9529514 -

Regarding Blacklight, have a look at Earthtech Intl’s experiments on Mills’ work at: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/index.html ; Earthtech has carefully tried to repeat Mills' experiments multiple times with no success.  It’s a judgment call as to who is right.

Regarding getting energy from ZPE and Maxwell’s demon, as you probably know, Maxwell’s demon was an attempt to obtain energy from a uniform thermal distribution, something that the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn’t allow.  ZPE is different for a couple of reasons.  First, ZPE is not a thermal distribution.  Rather zero-point radiation exists in a Lorentz distribution, which just means that its density varies with frequency to the third power.  The proof is discussed in Cole & Puthoff, Phys. Rev. E, 48, 1562-1565 (1993).  The second reason, and one that is more to the point for our invention, is that inside a Casimir cavity the ground-state energy has been lowered, and so it’s possible to extract energy from the ambient ZPE, which has a higher ground state that the ZPE inside the cavity.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9529978 -

I checked out the Earthtech site and that experiment they did looked similiar but it was not done nearly as professionally as Mills and also without proper guidance from him.  It was also done back in 98 and 2001.  I would think that Randell would have progressed quite a bit with his own experimentation since that time.  Have you checked out his documentary video Garret?  Your explanation for how the cavity separates the ZPE levels makes perfect since and I don't see how that wouldn't work unless are theory of what ZPE is off. Oh and I didn't mean to take away from your invention Garret I just see the Blacklight Power invention being brought to the public a lot sooner.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (01/02/09 06:24 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9531412 -

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/13/16 10:09 AM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #9532256 -

DieCommie said:
Secondly, I dont think that atoms have a lower ground state energy in a casimir cavity.  Are you appealing to hydrinos here?  If the ground state is -13.6eV outside the chamber, it will still be -13.6eV inside the chamber.  As the abstract states, the casimir cavity only restricts modes of the ambient EM radiation, it does not change the ground state of an atom.



The ground state energy of a system depends on the full potential it sees.  Thus, the vacuum energy is a small, implicit contribution to this potential for every atom.  If the ground state of the system is -13.6eV in ambient conditions and it enters a region with differing vacuum energy, the potential and thus the ground state energy has just changed.  We usually calculate the ground state of a system "in a vacuum" for simplicity without adding this contribution because the difference is undoubtedly negligible in most cases.

Now I don't know enough about such weird situations to be able to tell you what happens when a system in its ground state suddenly enters a region where its ground state differs.  I suppose it's current state could now be seen as a superposition of the new ground state and the first excited state, with most of the contribution being from the new ground state, so chances are when you measure the energy of the system, you find that it's already in the new ground state.  But a small percentage of the time you find that the system is in the first excited state.

I have a hard time believing, though, that when an atom leaves such a cavity you don't suffer some kind of "pumping losses" when you try to push it into a region with higher potential...

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9641478 -

Garret, After spending a considerable amount of time & effort researching practical methods for building Casimir cavities I stumbled across the patent application you filed with Haisch in 2005.  I then stumbled across this forum...

"there may be something that we overlooked in our analysis of it and the concept may not work"

I've read through your patent and I think you missed something fairly obvious... The energy required to push the gas into the Casimir cavity is at least equal to the energy released by the photon.  It looks like this is yet another victory for the laws of Thermodynamics!

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: rgallus]
    #9643239 -

Interesting! :strokebeard:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9643797 -

zouden said:
Interesting! :strokebeard:


You didn't think it was interesting when I said the same thing:

Quote:
I have a hard time believing, though, that when an atom leaves such a cavity you don't suffer some kind of "pumping losses" when you try to push it into a region with higher potential...


:grin:

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #9643973 -

:blush:  :ashamed:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: rgallus]
    #9884404 -

No, the reactionary forces are translated 90 degrees to the temporal axis. This method FORCES normally chaotic virtual particles to organize boundary conditions with hydrino molecules that formed while inside the casimir cavity. The subzero like radius of the orbital was non radiative because it didn't really get smaller -the boundary condition holding the electron away from the nucleus got wider on the time axis and the electron orbital simply remained stationary relative to the boundary now distributed differently to reflect the change in quadric volume inside these exclusion fields. the electron remains at -13.6 eV ground state momentum. If the atom exits the field without forming a molecule it will simply untwist. Dr Mills, Dr Moddel and Dr Haish all failed to realize you need a covalent bond to occur while inside the exclusion field or you gain nothing. A molecule formed outside the cavity would never be able to diffuse as far on the temporal axis as it component atoms so there is no opposite effect for a molecule disassociating inside a cavity. The energy gain is only for bonds formed while the atoms are submerged as far as possible on the time axis. The gain is provided by virtual particles forming organized boundaries with the newly formed molecule's orbitals which are locked into their temporal orientation by the covalent bond. these orientations are preserved by the covalent bond but experience increasing opposition from virtual particles that normally keep orbitals swept into a path of least resistance to the curving time stream between normal space, a casimir cavity and even an event horizon. these hydrinos continue to hold their orientation from the exclusion field and find themselves interleaving themselves into the time stream instead of swept to the shore line of space time. since this already so speculative let me tell you a story about the Casamir cavities cousin, the event horizon....

Johny learns his father's space cruise ship is being sucked into a black hole- unlike most disasters this will be a lifetime tragedy due to relativity -although mere moments for his father it will be hundreds of years before the spaceship is actually crushed by the gravitational forces seeping through the inertial dampers. Johny however is calm because his new invention multiplies a spaceship drives power and dampers far beyond previous levels and he knows that time is now his friend! After years of preparation Johnny and a rescue ship dive into the event horizon toward the doomed ship - As the doomed ship grows larger Johnny initiates the device that will lock their shields together so they can drag the crippled ship out of the gravity well. The rescue ship is able to lock onto the crippled ship on the first attempt and they quickly combine their navigation and engines into a single dual ship mode. they start pulling away from the black holes gravitational grasp and are already approaching the
point where the 2 ships first merged marking their actual starting point on their return. Johnny knows time is traveling faster outside the event horizon and wants to get his father home while there is still family left that will recognize him. As the dualship climbs the gravity well it is pushed by temporal forces forming boundary conditions with the dualships merged fields. Both ships have molecular structures twisted on the time axis by the curved space inside the well which would simply untwist if each ship returned individually but the two fields forming the dualship bond are now locked one against the other unable to twist back to normal even as the dualship
continues to climb the well returning to flat space. The resistance seems to increase in steps and Johny hopes both ships will still have escape velocity when the binding field breaks and both ships break free. With a flash Johnny's ship suddenly emerges from the black and they are immediately contacted by the rescued ship already waiting for them. His father's face appears on the com to tell Johnny only weeks have elapsed since Johnny dove into the black hole and to chide him about taking so long :_) Apparently dad and crew have been waiting 3 days for them to reappear. Johnny then realized the implications of his fathers communication. He assumed that the rescue attempt would return all travelers to a point at least twenty years after the rescue missions entry into the black hole but somehow they were all returned only weeks later. The temporal resistance that eventually tore apart the binding field of the dualship had combined with the ships vector so that the dualship did not follow the curved gravitational well of the black hole back to normal flat space. The dualship had experienced true temporal navigation, the fields acted as temporal rudders their molecular orbitals unable to twist freely with the changing curvature of the well the orbitals became interleaved in the time stream forming boundary conditions with vacuum fluctuations which can lift or submerge a ship from its time frame. the orientations once frozen by the binding field retained an orientation, a resistive rudder angle, that favored that temporal coordinate which combined with ships drive to form a composite temporal spatial vector submerging the dualship into the plane of the gravity well on the shortest return path to flat space. Johnny wondered what would have happened if the field had not broken - if the two ships had escaped the event horizon with their binding field intact ..would they appear like tiny spaceships still miles away or should i say hours away since they would still be displaced on the temporal axis not the normal spatial axis. Would they be torn apart by temporal force the moment they dropped their shields?

The mirror of this animally is two hydrogen atoms entering a Casimir cavity at different times. If they form a covalent bond and try to diffuse back out of the cavity they have a similar dilemma. From one perspective normal space compares to the rushing gravity well of the event horizon and the casimir cavity compares to our normal space-
time. the inverse of time is frequency and unlike an event horizon the activity from our perspective is any atoms or molecules in a Casimir cavity appear to be very fast hence my suspicion that catalysts are just an indicator of casimir cavities. Getting back to the dilemma is that the atoms were on spatial-temporal axis with their orbital boundaries shrinking from our perspective but in a non radiative manner (twisted on the time axis) this "distance" D1 and D2 for the two atoms must be maintained when they exit but forming a molecular bond means they will either return still "twisted" on the temporal axis or the virtual particles will tear the covalent bond apart and release the signature black light plasma as it accelerates through the equivalent of sub zero state shells -actually temporal
axis shells. The stable twisted molecule if possible is actually the more desirable outcome since it would make possible all the science fiction devices described in the first paragraph by providing the "oar" scientists have needed since the beginning of space exploration.

Fran http://www.byzipp.com/energy/

Edited by froarty (03/01/09 05:48 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: froarty]
    #9886278 -

k


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9886309 -

:lol:

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Redstorm]
    #9894176 -
Log in to view attachment

^











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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9896864 -

If I used a heatpump to draw heat out of the sea, drive a steam turbine that'd drive the compressor and pumping system, and generate surplus energy, is that an over unity device?


--------------------

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #9897032 -

No, because the energy is coming from the sun.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9897041 -

zouden said:
No, because the energy is coming from the sun.


What energy is coming from the sun?

It looks to me like it is an over unity device.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #9897082 -

Drawing heat out of the sea? It's definitely coming from the sun.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9897263 -

How about hooking a tube from my ass to a natural gas burner, use that to drive a generator? It comes from where the sun don't shine. When I eat beans I could run the whole house.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9897344 -

Drawing it out of the earth is better.  Geothermal.

Its not over-unity though because the energy is stored in the planet and will one day run out same as the sun.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #9897413 -

No...it's actually an energy sink you've got there...not an energy source.

Heat pumps require energy to work and, in the case of every heat pump we have, can require much more energy than you can ever get from the heat you collect.

Reason being, you are taking something that is at very high entropy (a sea filled with heat) and trying to put it into a low entropy state (collecting all that heat and putting it in one place).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: trendal]
    #9897445 -

Oh yes, I see it now. I assumed he was talking about extracting energy directly from the heat of the ocean. Which would work in some places, at some times of the year, as it would require the sea to be warmer than the air. In that case the energy is coming from the sun.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9898882 -

I read it like he wanted to power the heat pumps with the energy they provide; which would be over unity.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #9901377 -

Yes, it would be... if it worked :wink:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: DieCommie]
    #9901645 -

Qubit said:
I read it like he wanted to power the heat pumps with the energy they provide; which would be over unity.



I don't get it.  A heat pump doesn't make energy right?  Are you talking about the generator/heatpump combo or something?


Why is this over unity?  Take heat from the ocean and power the generator with it, use the generator to power the heat pump and yield the rest as usable energy.  ?


Is this some technical point about the definition of a heat pump I may be missing?  While I understand the common examples, isn't it just anything that transports heat by an active process?



Are you just saying its unlikely this could ever work due to the temperature of the ocean and the inefficiencies of the process?  I could see that.  But like zouden said, if the sun is heating tidal pools or something why couldn't you get energy from the sun?  Or just a hot part of the ocean?

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: johnm214]
    #9901659 -

Yes, I think the proposal was to use active pumping to collect heat in one spot, then use a heat engine to generate electricity from that, and use that electricity to drive the heat pump (and more). I couldn't think of a system less likely to work.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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