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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8531354 -

Hmmm yes but the way it's made is different. Fused quartz is a much higher quality product than what you get by melting silica, because it's made with a better quality feedstock and requires an arc furnace.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #8532642 -

> Quartz is SiO2....
> yes but the way it's made is different.

We always used "quartz glass" in any high temperature optics applications in the lab.  I never really stopped to think about what makes it special.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9497627 -

I just happened upon this message board and was amused to find a discussion on the zero point energy patent that Bernie Haisch and I wrote, and a lot of comments about whether I'm a fraud.  So... here's an update on the technology, and you can decide whether we're frauds or not.

The idea of pumping zero-point energy from the vacuum and using it does not break any physical laws, but as far as I know no one has clearly demonstrated it.  There are actually a number of ZPE patents out there.  Most of them make use of a Casimir cavity, in which two reflecting plates are attracted together because of ZPE.  The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.  In my mind, that can never work because the Casimir force is conservative, meaning that whatever energy you get from work it does has to be put back into the system to separate the plates.  Our patent is different in that we don't use the attractive force between the plates.  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it.

At the University my research group had a contract to look into our concept to see if it was valid.  We spent about a year developing devices and testing them.  The post-doctoral researcher in my lab who was in charge of the project was convinced that he did see energy emission, but I am doubtful.  The experiments were not clean enough and the devices we built were not reliable enough.  Therefore my judgement -- take it or leave it -- is that the technology is still unproven.  It may work, or there may be something that we overlooked in our analysis of it and the concept may not work.  The physics behind it legitimate, but it's still a high-risk, high-payoff concept.

I've had a pretty successful career so far, developing mainstream technologies in industry and academia.  The person who wrote that I'm now playing with fire was right.  Working on non-mainstream research invites a lot of criticism from people who think it must be fraudulent or stupid.  To legitimately criticize non-mainstream research, you have to do a lot of reading of the peer-reviewed research in field to understand what looks right and what doesn't.  Just throwing barbs from the side may be fun, but it doesn't really contribute to the argument.  I'm now carrying out non-mainstream research because I'm convinced that that is where the big breakthroughs will come.

Anyway, if you have comments or questions about out-of-the-ordinary concepts of mine or anyone else, why not email them directly to the inventor?  If it's a serious question or comment, you're likely to receive a serious reply.

Edited by Garret Moddel (12/26/08 02:13 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9498039 -

Quote:
The post-doctoral researcher in my lab who was in charge of the project was convinced that he did see energy emission, but I am doubtful.


Interesting - this brings a new perspective to the story. Thanks for posting and sharing your story. It must be quite a shock to see how quickly people in academia turn against you when you start making unconventional claims.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9498939 -

Garret Moddel said:
I just happened upon this message board and was amused to find a discussion on the zero point energy patent that Bernie Haisch and I wrote, and a lot of comments about whether I'm a fraud.  So... here's an update on the technology, and you can decide whether we're frauds or not.


Allow me to be the first to welcome you to the Shroomery. 

I just checked out your web page and noticed that you and I share several interests.  I have a M.Sc. in Physics/Nanoscience and am now a researcher for a small (so small I'm the only one in the lab) nano-medical company in California.  Most of my research has centered around either magnetic or fluorescent nanoparticles.  For a while after graduate school, I was teaching photonics classes as well. 

I hadn't heard of your patent or read this thread before your post but I'm definitely going to look into it in light of your comments.  Thanks for the added perspective.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #9499571 -

>nano-medical company in California

Do you prefer working in industry over academia? I'm just starting my career and I'm wondering if I'll go into industry at some point. If I don't, it'll be academia all the way.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Garret Moddel]
    #9501106 -

Welcome to the Shroomery.  I hope you stick around.  The discussions in here can become quite interesting, though nowhere near what you would see on a 'science oriented' forum.

Quote:
The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.


This illustrates the problem I have with ZPE.  The handwaving "and then somehow" bit... In this case, the "and somehow" becomes "add energy to the system to pull the plates apart".  It is like telling somebody that they can drop a weight from a tall building and get energy... and then somehow they get the weight back to the top of the building and drop it again.

I don't immediately write off ZPE as fraud nor do I think it violates our understanding of physics.  There energy is there, if we can figure out a way to harness it.  Unfortunately, a lot of unscrupulous people use ZPE as a starting place to defraud investors.

It will be nice having somebody around that is intimate with the technology and can help differentiate between the con artists and the legitimate research.  As I said, I hope you stick around!  :smile:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9501846 -

Hey Garret glad you could chime in here and tell people the inside scoop. Have any of you guys happened to check out Blacklight Powers site lately? They just got shown on CNN Money and they are already working to build their first commercial power plant.


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“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9502304 -

Seuss said:
Quote:
The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.


This illustrates the problem I have with ZPE.  The handwaving "and then somehow" bit... In this case, the "and somehow" becomes "add energy to the system to pull the plates apart".  It is like telling somebody that they can drop a weight from a tall building and get energy... and then somehow they get the weight back to the top of the building and drop it again.



I think he is agreeing that doesnt work.  This is what he said:
Our patent is different in that we don't use the attractive force between the plates.  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it.

I cant help but think of maxwells demon.  How would as lower zero point energy pull energy from a gas?

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9502643 -

zouden said:
>nano-medical company in California

Do you prefer working in industry over academia? I'm just starting my career and I'm wondering if I'll go into industry at some point. If I don't, it'll be academia all the way.


Honestly, I'd probably prefer academia because of the freedom.  However, there can be more money in industry and the added structure can increase your productivity in certain cases.  Working in academia has the benefit of being able to/having to teach which keeps you sharp and always learning.  A lot of industry people tend to stagnate and then move up into management.  The focus of each is somewhat different and I think I might switch back and forth for a while to keep some kind of balance...

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #9503274 -

>A lot of industry people tend to stagnate and then move up into management.

I hadn't really thought about that but it makes sense. I'm glad I asked. :cheers:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9504301 -

Seuss did you even read what he wrote?  And Zouden right now Garret is only involved in Academia since Phiar failed to get off the ground so far.  Um lets see oh Garret have you heard of Blacklight yet what do you think of it I'm extremely interested in your take on it considering it will revolutionize all of science.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


Edited by buddhahoodlum (12/28/08 07:21 PM)

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9504691 -

>And Zouden right now Garret is only involved in Academia since Phiar failed to get off the ground so far so why would you ask him that? 

I didn't.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: zouden]
    #9504782 -

> Seuss did you even read what he wrote?

Yes.  I even went a step further and understood it as well.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9505178 -

Oh sry Zouden I mean Chang got confused.  And no Seuss you didn't even read the full paragraph you just jumped to conclusions.  This is what he actually said

The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.  In my mind, that can never work because the Casimir force is conservative, meaning that whatever energy you get from work it does has to be put back into the system to separate the plates.  Our patent is different in that we don't use the attractive force between the plates.  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it.

not this alone

The idea of those patents is to make use of this attractive force, allowing the plates to go together, and then somehow separating them to go through the process again.

And then you say this which shows that you didn't understand

This illustrates the problem I have with ZPE.  The handwaving "and then somehow" bit... In this case, the "and somehow" becomes "add energy to the system to pull the plates apart".  It is like telling somebody that they can drop a weight from a tall building and get energy... and then somehow they get the weight back to the top of the building and drop it again.

You see you didn't understand because you didn't read the last sentence of the paragraph which woulda explained it to ya.


But I'm sure that you already saw that DieCommie called you out on that so I'll just leave it be for now.


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9505653 -

> You see you didn't understand because you didn't read the last sentence of the paragraph

*sigh*  I wasn't talking about his patent(s).  I was referring to the exact statement that I quoted and nothing more.  I was using his statement (out of context), not his patents, as an example of the kind of crap that annoys me.  If you read closely, I was not slamming him.  I know that he was not claiming the statement I quoted to be a source of free energy.  His next line of text (after the one I quoted) makes this very clear.  He says the exact same thing I said as to why it doesn't work.

Based upon his web site, it appears that he is fairly smart and I am quite certain that he understands my concern: con artists tend to use this type of hand waving (the single line I quoted, not his entire presentation) to fool people into believing that they have discovered the golden goose of free energy.  As I said, it will be nice to have another person around that help can point out this fake 'science' when it shows up.

I apologize for not being clear that I was using his one statement out of context as general example.  Again, I was not making any claims towards the person posting, the feasibility of his research, or patents, or anything else of that nature.  I was simply using his one sentence as an example.  Based upon the rest of what he wrote, I assumed that other readers would understand my intent.

> But I'm sure that you already saw that DieCommie called you out on that so I'll just leave it be for now.

Isn't that civil of you.  Thanks.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9506088 -

I knew what you were saying :shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: Seuss]
    #9508172 -

^^^

I also thought it was abundantly clear as to what you were saying.  Apparently some people have a better reading comprehension than others.  Very surprising.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #9508926 -

This would be the part of the paragraph the contradicts what you said Seuss.

  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it. 

Is it really that hard to comprehend this concept?


--------------------
“I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.” – Jules Verne, T

“Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe...it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel-work of nature."
- Nikola Tesla


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Re: Zero Point Energy Extraction Has Arrived [Re: buddhahoodlum]
    #9509197 -

buddhahoodlum said:
  Instead, we make use of the lower ZPE inside of a Casimir cavity to pull energy from gas that flows through it. 

Is it really that hard to comprehend this concept?


I dont understand it at all  :shrug:

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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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