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Offlinefoghorn
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Registered: 12/13/01
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830817 - 08/20/02 03:51 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

wow u give a shit about the constitution - yet support the government that is tearing it apart?

confusing

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: The administration [Re: foghorn]
    #831700 - 08/20/02 10:37 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Yes I support the government. No I don't agree with everything they do. However I support a large majority of what they do.

As a side note.... where are all the posters who responded to my remarks on carbon dioxide and who thought I shouldn't post any more? Chart shut you up did it?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #831808 - 08/20/02 11:53 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

luvdemshrooms was quite correct in pointing out the areas in which the federal government is prohibited from acting. If anything, I think he missed a few.

The Constitution prevents the federal government from involving itself in certain areas. Unfortunately, there are tons of federal laws on the books that violate this constitutional restriction. It's nice to see this administration eliminate some of them, but my bet is there will be more enacted than are repealed. That's the way it has been with every administration since the New Deal.

I'm not surprised to see that it's mainly the Canadians having a hard time making this connection. In Canada, the government is perceived as "Daddy", and every time someone has difficulty in his life -- ANY difficulty -- he runs to the government, wailing "There oughta be a law about... (fill in the blank). Daddy, help me! Do something about it!" Unfortunately, there is an increasing tendency for Americans to do the same thing, but they have less excuse for doing so than Canadians, because (in theory, at least), they have all taken a few Civics classes in school.

This tendency to view the proper function of government as a combination nanny/hall-monitor/Santa Claus is stronger in almost all Canadians than it is in the average American, but it is particularly noticeable in the younger Canadians. I can't in good conscience blame them for it. They're as thoroughly indoctrinated from infancy by the media, their teachers, and politicians as any Soviet youth ever was. They honestly believe that this is what government is all about because they have never been told otherwise. It takes a very strong mind to overcome this conditioning.

I get frustrated at some of the posts they make here, and I'm afraid I sometimes get a little harsh in my replies. This is an error on my part. I tend to forget exactly how hard it is to undo years of brainwashing, and how hard it is to form opinions contrary to those of the herd.

So, guys, when you see them post something that TO YOU seems to make no sense, remember that TO THEM (and to almost all their teachers, parents, friends, newspaper editors, and members of parliament) not only does it make sense, but no other way of looking at it CAN make sense.

It's not always a sign of stupidity, it's a cultural thing.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832052 - 08/21/02 04:21 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Luvdemshrooms, I never replied until now because A) I need sleep occasionally and B) I never disagreed with you on the carbon dioxide emissions issue. I think the cutting down of forrests is the bigger issue than Carbon Dioxide emissions...since the trees are what use the Cardon dioxide to make oxygen...with less trees, more carbon dioxide, hence global warming...it's a pretty basic theory I admit, but that's also just my opinion, not fact as far as I know.

In response to Pinky...Perhaps you are right, it MAY be a cultural thingas to what we expect from the government, because I do believe that free access to health care should be a right not a privelege to those that can afford it...perhaps that's why we have such a high standard of life in comparison to the rest of the world.
I will agree that we tend to rely on the government for alot of things, but in general we have a relatively low unemployment rate and because we tend to rely on government we also tend to keep an eye on what it's doing...we don't put up with the corruption that seems to be rampant in the U.S. government...basically, if you fuck up, you're history..end of story. In the U.S. if you fuck up, you're given more power.

How are Canadians any more brainwashed than Americans?...if anything I would say we are less brainwashed. Most of us are actually familiar with the world outside our borders...and their views and beliefs..can you say the same about most Americans?

***please note...the following is a theory*** Since Americans basic needs aren't provided for, they feel the need to sue anyone that hurts their feelings...."Waaaah!, the hot coffee that I asked for, and you served me was too hot!...I need a bazillion dollars to repair my mental anguish!..gimme gimme gimme!" Am I wrong on this?

Anyways, I honestly do not want to turn this into another lame Canada vs. U.S. rant...because both countries have their pros and cons. My only contention is with the U.S. government and it's global actions recently...which I'll continue to argue against until I'm blue in the face...



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (08/21/02 04:30 AM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #832114 - 08/21/02 04:47 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

No, not really. I don't know a ton about carbon dioxide and pollution, and I'm sure you don't either. I don't think you even understand that chart, really. You just found it on some site and posted it.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832119 - 08/21/02 04:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I don't see how we could be more brainwashed about your government. The Canadian media isn't wildly anti-american, they just take a more objective view when reporting on its actions. Compare CNN to media sources from around the world, like CBC and BBC, you'll notice that there's a lot of stories that CNN just outright ignores.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleSoFarNorth
Hindu BuddistInitiate
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Far away from here
Re: The administration [Re: ]
    #832158 - 08/21/02 05:21 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Hey -
I used to be like you in this, then I moved to Idaho, where the 'less is more' form of gov't is in full swing, with approximately 90% of the elected posts being held by Republican party members. Then I saw how badly it turns out in real life.

* Our public schools are in a shambles, since it is next to impossible to raise a tax or bond to pay for them. The state has cut off funding to the schools to the point where the state Supreme Court has ordered them to release money to bring the schools up to a minimum of habitability. This is not to pay for luxuries, but for things like heating oil and to patch roofs.

* The state has passed, on three separate occasions, term limits laws via referendum. This year, the legislature overturned these - ignoring the rule of the people.

* The state legislature is governed by Sunshine Laws in which everything is supposed to be discussed in open forum. The GOP has subverted this by holding 'caucuses' (legally allowed to be private, due to party business) wherein they decide all matters of importance, and only come out in public to vote.

* The state allows bluegrass farmers to burn their fields in the fall to increase production rates, although this is documented to cause health problems in the population and was the direct cause of a woman's death last year.

* The county gov't rolls over to *any* development, so that we now have a train refueling station sitting above the aquifer that is the sole water source for 750,000 people. Similar stations in other states have always leaked fuel in to the ground beneath them.

* We have the worst meth problem in the country, primarily due to a lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment.

* Idaho's poverty and child malnutrition rates both increased during the boom times of the 90's. The legislature did manage to cut taxes by $100 million a year, though.

There is more, but it gets depressing to repeat it.

This is why I have no longer have faith in the conservative agenda. It has failed profoundly, much like the Communist doctrine did in Russia. They look good on paper, but get ruined in execution. I don't know if re-regulation will solve the problems, but I know that de-reg has failed, so I'm willing to look at it again.



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"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832167 - 08/21/02 05:28 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono writes:

...because I do believe that free access to health care should be a right...

Why? WHY do you believe free medical care is a right but not free food or free housing or free winter clothing?

I have never understood why people insist that free medical care (which is far from free, of course -- it's funded by increased taxation) is a RIGHT. No one ever thought of it as such before the late Sixties, but now it has been commonly accepted by Canadians that it is not just "a nice thing to have", but an actual RIGHT. It is, of course, not a right at all.

...we don't put up with the corruption that seems to be rampant in the U.S. government...

Now that's excellent news! So Jean Chretien's days are numbered. Glad to hear it.

Most of us are actually familiar with the world outside our borders...and their views and beliefs..can you say the same about most Americans?

I don't know. I was born and raised in Canada and left the country in my thirties. I have spent the last fifteen years in the Dominican Republic. The Americans I meet here seem to know as much about international affairs as the Canadians and Europeans I meet here, but they may not be a representative sampling of Americans as a whole. Maybe the ones who don't travel are more ignorant.

Since Americans basic needs aren't provided for...

Which needs would those be?

...they feel the need to sue anyone that hurts their feelings....

Civil suits are a MUCH better solution for rectifying perceived wrongs than enacting new legislation. See the following reasons:

a) The issue is decided by EXISTING institutions under EXISTING law. No need to set up new bureaucracies or pass new legislation.

b) The only ones affected by the dispute are the ones directly involved in it, not the entire populace.

c) The loser pays the court costs. If some doofus brings a frivolous suit with no chance in hell of being won in the hopes of striking it rich, he pays the penalty for tying up resources (the courts) which could be better utilized on serious issues. When government tries to resolve things, we ALL pay (and pay and pay).

d) If he DOES win his case he (usually) receives a much higher compensation for his grievance than any government legislation would have provided him, at ZERO cost to the taxpayers.

There's probably other reasons I can't think of at the moment, but these four alone should be sufficient.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832193 - 08/21/02 05:53 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Why? WHY do you believe free medical care is a right but not free food or free housing or free winter clothing?


Because health is something that affects everyone directly...with poor health, you have less people working because they are unable to, you have the threat of a contagious disease becoming rampant, that could have have easily been treated with innoculations. You are taking it to extremes by talking about free food, free housing etc...I am not talking aobut communism...I am talking about a government ensuring it's citizens are healthy, productive members of society. I could just as easily go to extremes about your point of view, but it serves no purpose.
In reply to:

So Jean Chretien's days are numbered. Glad to hear it


Yes..they are...although I can't stand the man, I doubt his level of corruption is anything remotely close to GW's
In reply to:

Maybe the ones who don't travel are more ignorant


This I agree with...for the simple reason that once they travel, they have no choice but to witness other cultures. But very little is taught in schools in regards to the world in general.
In reply to:

Civil suits are a MUCH better solution for rectifying perceived wrongs than enacting new legislation


Obviously you I are never going to agree on this point..I think they are waste of time and money. Frivolous law suits are won everyday by morons that feel they were "wronged" or know that they can get money in an out of court settlement. So legislations end up getting passed anyways to prevent more of these idiotic lawsuits...



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832199 - 08/21/02 05:55 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Should the rich be charged the same for the same medical procedure as the poor?

I don't think health should be considered a market commodity. No one should be denied health care simply because they do not have the means to pay for it.

What is your health worth to you?

Everything you have.

This is what many non-wealthy people pay for their health.

There is no logical reason for the wealthy to pay less, and they are paying less if they're not paying all that they have, while some others are.

Health isn't the same as cars, or digital watches and shouldn't be treated the same.



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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #832200 - 08/21/02 05:55 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

SoFarNorth writes:

...with approximately 90% of the elected posts being held by Republican party members.

Were the proper electoral procedures followed? If so, then it is obviously the "will of the majority", right?

... the state Supreme Court has ordered them to release money to bring the schools up to a minimum of habitability.

Then the problem is solved, no?

The state has passed, on three separate occasions, term limits laws via referendum. This year, the legislature overturned these - ignoring the rule of the people.

Ah. So the Idaho State Constitution says that the voters are allowed to elect their representatives but may override the decisions of these legally elected representatives through referenda? If this is the case, then any first-year law student should have no difficulty convincing the State Supreme Court to reverse the State legislature. When is the challenge due to be argued?

The GOP has subverted this by holding 'caucuses' (legally allowed to be private, due to party business) wherein they decide all matters of importance, and only come out in public to vote.

I don't understand. Are you saying that an opposition member in the legislature may not raise whatever points he wishes in the discussion period before the vote is held? If the opposition is in fact muzzled in this manner, and if this restriction is a violation of the State constituion, the State Supreme Court can set them straight.

...this is documented to cause health problems in the population and was the direct cause of a woman's death last year.

Sounds like those with documented health problems and the family of the woman in question have a lock on a big juicy lawsuit.

Similar stations in other states have always leaked fuel in to the ground beneath them.

So it is a given that this will be the case with this particular station as well? If the environmental agencies determine early on that there is leakage, may the state order the station shut down?

We have the worst meth problem in the country, primarily due to a lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment.

This is a problem EVERYWHERE in the US. Due to the WOD, huge amounts of money get spent in the wrong areas. Unfortunately, the feds won't allow individual states to decriminalize. There's not a lot that Idaho (or any other state) can do about it.

Idaho's poverty and child malnutrition rates both increased during the boom times of the 90's.

And this is due to exactly which policy (or policies) enacted by the Idaho State Legislature? You say the nineties were a boom time. This was true of the US as a whole, but not all states had the same increase. Was the increase of GSP (gross state product) in Idaho in the nineties significant?

pinky











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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832216 - 08/21/02 06:05 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"It is, of course, not a right at all."
Well, in Canada it's pretty much a right. We all have free health care. Nobody goes bankrupt because they can't afford to be operated on, and nobody stays home for as long as they can to avoid paying medical bills.

You can tell me over and over that people should get health insurance, but that fact is they simply don't. I worked as a telemarketer for a few days (I know, I know), calling americans, and trying to sell them some sort of bullshit health plan. About half of them had no kind of health coverage. Sure, they should have. That would have been the smart thing to do, but lots of them had jobs and were productive members of society... just that if they got into and accident they would be fucked financially. In Canada this doesn't happen. Health care is covered.

Civil suits are a nuisance. People can sue anyone in the US, even if they don't win they still force the person to go down and defend themselves. It can, and has been over "mental distress" for bouncing a basketball in the driveway next door. I'm sure you all know about the guy suing fast food places for making him fat.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #832220 - 08/21/02 06:10 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In America free education is not just a right, it's manditory.



--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleSoFarNorth
Hindu BuddistInitiate
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Far away from here
Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832238 - 08/21/02 06:21 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

...with approximately 90% of the elected posts being held by Republican party members.

Were the proper electoral procedures followed? If so, then it is obviously the "will of the majority", right?

*** Yes, they were. Here is where there might finally be some changes, the people have seen the lack of good governance, and the rise of arrogance that the state GOP has manifested and voted a large number of GOP incumbents out in this summer's primaries. The Dem's are expected to pick up a number of additional seats this fall.

... the state Supreme Court has ordered them to release money to bring the schools up to a minimum of habitability.

Then the problem is solved, no?

*** No. The legislature has stonewalled the SC and refused to comply - we have two branches of the state gov in a pissing contest, just one big disfunctional family. By the way, if the subject was less important, this would be fun to watch - what do you do when one branch of the gov't, through passive resistance, fails to do what another branch orders them to do? Who enforces it?

The state has passed, on three separate occasions, term limits laws via referendum. This year, the legislature overturned these - ignoring the rule of the people.

Ah. So the Idaho State Constitution says that the voters are allowed to elect their representatives but may override the decisions of these legally elected representatives through referenda? If this is the case, then any first-year law student should have no difficulty convincing the State Supreme Court to reverse the State legislature. When is the challenge due to be argued?

*** The SC threw out a case brought to it on this matter, w/o hearing it. It is being brought back to the table via another referendum this fall.

The GOP has subverted this by holding 'caucuses' (legally allowed to be private, due to party business) wherein they decide all matters of importance, and only come out in public to vote.

I don't understand. Are you saying that an opposition member in the legislature may not raise whatever points he wishes in the discussion period before the vote is held? If the opposition is in fact muzzled in this manner, and if this restriction is a violation of the State constituion, the State Supreme Court can set them straight.

*** The GOP holds 90% of the state elected offices and set the rules for debate on the house floor. The Dem's repeatedly try to bring points for discussion and are just as repeatedly shut down by the Rep's; the Dem's have essentially no voice whatsoever in state politics here. The only interesting debate is between the middle and far right wings of the GOP

...this is documented to cause health problems in the population and was the direct cause of a woman's death last year.

Sounds like those with documented health problems and the family of the woman in question have a lock on a big juicy lawsuit

*** In play as I write this.

Similar stations in other states have always leaked fuel in to the ground beneath them.

So it is a given that this will be the case with this particular station as well? If the environmental agencies determine early on that there is leakage, may the state order the station shut down?

*** Obviously, no one can say whether it's a given. The state claims they have absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter. The county claimed they had no jurisdiction. The fed's, via the Surface Transportation Board, declined to take any action in the matter. The railroad got to do whatever it damned well pleased.

We have the worst meth problem in the country, primarily due to a lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment.

This is a problem EVERYWHERE in the US. Due to the WOD, huge amounts of money get spent in the wrong areas. Unfortunately, the feds won't allow individual states to decriminalize. There's not a lot that Idaho (or any other state) can do about it.

*** I might buy this, except that the starting wage for county sheriff's here is roughly $24k/year. The cops tend to stay just long enough to get some experience and then bolt for higher paying jobs, leaving the county chronically short in law enforcement manpower. I'm no supporter of the WOD, but meth is screwing things up for everyone in everyway in the northwest. The problem here is worse than than I've seen in the other states I've lived in (Indiana, Florida, Kansas, California, Rhode ISland) . Evil shit, that.

Idaho's poverty and child malnutrition rates both increased during the boom times of the 90's.

And this is due to exactly which policy (or policies) enacted by the Idaho State Legislature? You say the nineties were a boom time. This was true of the US as a whole, but not all states had the same increase. Was the increase of GSP (gross state product) in Idaho in the nineties significant?

*** In their rush to cut taxes, Idaho cut numerous programs, including food stamp type programs, child health insurance (policy issuer of last resort for indigent families), child dental and medical programs. Idaho's GSP doubled in the 90's from $17739 million in 1990 to $34025 million in 1999 - I consider that significant.






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"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832248 - 08/21/02 06:26 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono writes:

...you have the threat of a contagious disease becoming rampant, that could have have easily been treated with innoculations.

Oh, please. There have always been mass innoculations in grade schools... at least since the fifties that I KNOW about, and probably before then. That is not the same thing at all as carte blanche complete medical care for everything from bunions to the common cold -- it may be properly classified as an emergency situation.

You are taking it to extremes by talking about free food, free housing etc...

How is that extreme? You say the government is ensuring its citizens are healthy and productive. Yet it is undeniable that those who have proper nutrition and are protected from the elements are healthier than those who aren't. It is also undeniable that it is easier prevent an illness (for example with good nutrition and protection from the elements) than to cure one.

Further, the vast majority of people go through most of their lives needing very little medical attention. If they never saw a doctor for the first fifty years of their lives, they would be able to survive, even to thrive. Yet someone living in a tent in Calgary in winter and trying to eat only what he can find in dumpsters will be in pretty bad shape.

Food and shelter are literally everyday NECESSITIES. Medical care for most people is not a NECESSITY.

I think they are waste of time and money.

Of COURSE they are! That's the POINT -- in a lawsuit the only individuals wasting time and money are the plaintiff and the defendent, rather than an entire nation.

Frivolous law suits are won everyday by morons that feel they were "wronged" or know that they can get money in an out of court settlement.

True, but what no one ever points out is that many, MANY more are either lost (at a financial penalty to the moron who thought he could get away with it) or dismissed outright before trial by the judge. But these cases never make the news.

So legislations end up getting passed anyways to prevent more of these idiotic lawsuits...

As it should be. In a situation like that, court decisions serve as an alarm system. If there are dozens of cases being brought before the courts involving the same issue, it indicates either:

a) There are a hell of a lot of people violating existing legislation, in which case the police or the various regulatory agencies should be enforcing it more strictly

or

b) There is a common problem not currently addressed satisfactorily by existing legislation. Now it IS time for the legislators to get involved.

pinky




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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #832271 - 08/21/02 06:38 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Baby Hitler writes:

Should the rich be charged the same for the same medical procedure as the poor?


Should the rich be charged the same price for a pound of hamburger as the poor? Yes. Should a rich man pay the same for his ulcer medication as a poor man? Yes.

No one should be denied health care simply because they do not have the means to pay for it.

Then why should someone be denied food, clothing, or shelter simply because they do not have the means to pay for it? Starvation will kill you a lot faster than an ulcer will, and hypothermia will kill you in less than an hour.

There is no logical reason for the wealthy to pay less, and they are paying less if they're not paying all that they have, while some others are.

What? By this same argument, if a poor person pays sixty per cent of his after-tax income for a studio apartment, Bill Gates must do the same.

Health isn't the same as cars, or digital watches and shouldn't be treated the same.

But it is the same as food or shelter... in fact, for the vast majority of people for the greatest part of their lives, it is far LESS important than daily food or shelter. See my reply to Rono above.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Registered: 01/25/01
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832280 - 08/21/02 06:44 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Oh, please. There have always been mass innoculations in grade schools


So you agree with the government providing innoculations?...uh oh...watch out...Pinky MUST be a communist.
In reply to:

How is that extreme? You say the government is ensuring its citizens are healthy and productive. Yet it is undeniable that those who have proper nutrition and are protected from the elements are healthier than those who aren't


Because if the government provided all housing we would all be living in the same type of house...I am not communist and I think that there should be incentive to work for a living, providing free housing does not promote that. Providing free food is another matter altogether...I don't think anyone should go hungry...EVER. And though I think providing free food isn't an entirely bad idea, it isn't feasible. The hungry generally DO get fed...Soup Kitchens etc...same as in the U.S.
In reply to:

Of COURSE they are! That's the POINT -- in a lawsuit the only individuals wasting time and money are the plaintiff and the defendent, rather than an entire nation.


Until legislations get passed because of said lawsuits, thereby wasting the time of the entire nation anyways. What's the difference?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832289 - 08/21/02 06:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not talking about free toe medicine for itchy feet.

I'm talking about life saving treatment.

And no, I don't think someone should be allowed to die because they have no money, and am all for legislation to prevent that.

I do prefer private organizations to handle it, but most of them are crackpot church nazis who only help their own.


Should we kill the "free" education in America as well?


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #832307 - 08/21/02 07:00 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Phluck writes:

Well, in Canada it's pretty much a right.

It is an "entitlement", not a right. This is a favorite trick of politicians -- calling a pet program a "right". If it was a right, it would have existed for a lot longer than thirty-four years.

You can tell me over and over that people should get health insurance, but that fact is they simply don't.

People should do lots of things they don't. What's your point?

About half of them had no kind of health coverage.

That should tell you something, shouldn't it? Most people are smart enough to realize that insurance companies make a profit.  That's because, on average, they receive more money in premiums than they pay out in claims. In other words, the average person would spend less money on medical expenses over the course of his life than he would in insurance premiums.

I've had no health insurance for almost fifteen years now, so I know where those people are coming from. I could have it if I wanted to (and I would receive much better benefits at a much lower cost than when I was "covered" by the Ontario health care system) but I chose to invest the money I would have spent on health insurance on other things. That was my decision, taken after careful consideration. In Canada I had no choice in the matter.

Civil suits are a nuisance.

Agreed. But they are not a nuisance to the entire country, only to the defendent.

People can sue anyone in the US...

Not true. Countless thousands of meritless lawsuits are dismissed by the courts at the preliminary hearing stage.

... even if they don't win they still force the person to go down and defend themselves.

This is true of criminal prosecutions as well. But in a civil suit, the defendent recoups his legal costs, and is often awarded further compensation for "nuisance damages". In a criminal case, you may end up being in jail for months awaiting trial, paying all the money you have for a lawyer, and when you are acquitted you walk away without even a "sorry about that." What's your point?

pinky
 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832342 - 08/21/02 07:16 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono writes:

So you agree with the government providing innoculations?...uh oh...watch out...Pinky MUST be a communist.

Actually, I don't believe that even vaccinations should be free. They cost so little that anyone can afford them. I was merely pointing out that even if the government DOES provide free vaccinations for life-threatening infectious diseases that present a clear and present danger to the populace as a whole (polio, smallpox, tuberculosis, etc.) it is not even close to being the same thing as providing free blanket medical care for everything from bunions to bursitis. The threat of an epidemic can properly be considered a national emergency. Your case of jock itch doesn't qualify.

I think that there should be incentive to work for a living, providing free housing does not promote that.

And universal free medical care is incentive to live a healthy lifestyle? "Why stop smoking? The government will buy me a new set of lungs."

Until legislations get passed because of said lawsuits, thereby wasting the time of the entire nation anyways. What's the difference?

Re-read my post. If the lawsuits are frivolous, legislation is not needed. If they aren't frivolous, legislation may be needed. What part of

"In a situation like that, court decisions serve as an alarm system. If there are dozens of cases being brought before the courts involving the same issue, it indicates either:

a) There are a hell of a lot of people violating existing legislation, in which case the police or the various regulatory agencies should be enforcing it more strictly

or

b) There is a common problem not currently addressed satisfactorily by existing legislation. Now it IS time for the legislators to get involved."


did you find unclear? I will try to explain it in simpler terms if it will help.

pinky





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