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InvisibleSoFarNorth
Hindu BuddistInitiate
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Far away from here
The administration
    #829944 - 08/20/02 10:22 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A cut-n-paste from another board. I *wish* I'd have written it...

Folks, I take up pen (one more time) because I am worried.

It is clearer every day that there is a fundamental disconnect between the American people and its government.

For our own good, it is time we step back and take a look around.

We are being governed by an unelected President whose administration is by any measure more extreme than any in recent memory.

Decades of hard work in areas as diverse as the environment, public health, privacy, energy conservation, world peace, the elderly, women's issues, workplace safety and more have been rolled back and undone with unprecedented speed.

We are being robbed.

The sad thing is, when viewed from a historical perspective, it not only makes sense, it is inevitable that we arrive at this place.

The Tycoons are running the country for their benefit and they don't give a rat's patootie about you, your well being, or anything else not directly tied to their bottom line.

I am not making an abstract point here. The amazing thing is that with three exceptions, the same crowd has been in charge of national policy since WWII.

Look at the story about the family investigating the death of their CIA agent father that was in the press a few days ago.

The 1975 White House officials who's memos regarding the case were quoted in the article are named Cheney and Rumsfeld. They were Deputy Chief of Staff and Chief of Staff at the time.

They, and others, have served at the top of the Reagan and Bush Sr. administrations as well.

At that point in time George H. W. Bush was Chairman of the Republican National Committee but within months Dick Cheney would submit his name to Gerald Ford as the person to replace CIA Director Colby who was seen as being too cooperative with the investigators on Capitol Hill.

It is illustrative in that nearly 30 years ago, the power players in the White House were the same as now. Actually, with the exception of the Clinton years and the Carter administration the same crowd has been in the White House and running things since the 60's.

Carter happned because the abuses of power that came to light as a result of Watergate were so extreme that the country was jolted. Clinton, like Kennedy before him, was elected in spite of his party by sheer force of political skill, smarts, and personality. Both were reviled by the Democrats in power at the time yet both succeeded in reaching the people.

Other than that there is a clear history of the same small group playing musical chairs in the halls of power for decades.

These folks were on watch during the Nixon saga, CoIntelPro, the CIA 70's abuses, the Junk Bond years (with the stock market boom and crash of the 80's), Iran Contra, the $550 billion Savings and Loan debacle (the largest transfer of wealth in US history - to the rich), and more. They are the ones who wanted to privatize Social Security.

This is the group that Eisenhower was speaking of in his famous farewell speech when he coined the term "military industrial complex":

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.

We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
Dwight D, Eisenhower - Farewell Speech, 1961

He had led the country through two wars and was in a position to know first-hand what he was warning us about.

As a country we have failed to hear the warning.

I am not unveiling some hidden conspiracy - there is no need for one. The news is reported day in and day out with the same names appearing regularly for decades and we just don't connect the dots.

Our national press is controlled by fewer people than ever before. It has become a part of Big Industry and it is not terribly surprising that this story is not getting told as it deserves.

Nor is it surprising that the President and his allies have had an easy time distracting us from covering his finances or spinning the story in his favor.

There is ample evidence ( http://www.deepcool.com/politics/ ) in the public record to prove that both the President and the Vice President were using Enron-like tactics to illegally boost profits in firms where Andersen was doing the books.

George W. has managed to keep the press focused on the much fuzzier issue of a delayed SEC paperwork filing.

Actions:

Forward this to folks you know. Not willy-nilly, don't spam anybody, but please help spread the word.

Become aware. These things happen because we are too busy, distracted, or lazy to pay attention.

Raise a stink. When you see obvious misbehavior or wrongdoing complain. Call your representative and let them know what's bugging you. Regularly.

Get out the vote. The Tycoons get their guys elected in spite of the fact that society has mostly disagreed with their policies for 30 years. They do it by many means but the biggest weapon they have is a core constituency which votes. Always... (never mind the fact that constituency is focused on issues irrelevant to the Tycoons).

Talk about this in your daily life. We all need to get active. Cynicism and apathy are tools of the Tycoons.

Make an effort to see behind the curtains when reading the news. Why Iraq? Why now? Who benefits? Don't buy the silly reasons that pass for analysis like "George just wants to outdo his Dad" or "George wants to do the opposite of his Dad". In truth, George probably doesn't have that much to do with it - any more than Ford, or Reagan did.

Write letters to your elected officials write a letter to the editor - write a piece to add to this collection. It would be great to have a time-line of Presidential staffers through the years. We need to develop resources that help tell the tale.

Finally, Please read and consider the following linked articles and writings:

Beau Blue, poet, systems engineer, programmer, and really smart guy asks "How much trouble are we in?" and decides that "We're in it up to our eyes." and that the "The real danger is the theft of our rights." See 'How much trouble are we in?'

http://deepcool.com/politics/beaublue081202.html

Dan Gillmor, a very smart reporter at the San Jose Mercury has called us to action as a people because Big Media is intent on changing our fundamental rights to peruse and use information. See 'We Must Engage In Copyright Debate'

http://deepcool.com/politics/gillmor.html

"I am of neither party nor yet a trimmer between parties. I have never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all."
-Thomas Jefferson

That's all for now...

Gary Starkweather


--------------------
"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #829956 - 08/20/02 10:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

An excellent post, I coudn't agree more.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinevatoloco
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Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 7,653
Last seen: 17 years, 11 days
Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Rono]
    #830078 - 08/20/02 11:25 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: vatoloco]
    #830103 - 08/20/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't be but they kicked me out of the "Shroomery Book Club"


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #830105 - 08/20/02 11:35 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

We are being governed by an unelected President whose administration is by any measure more extreme than any in recent memory.




Wrong. GW was elected by the means set out in the constitution. If you don't like them, work to get them changed but give a rest to the unelected president crap. It makes you appear to be stupid right off the bat. Since I don't know you and have no way of knowing if you really are stupid, this is an unfortunate impression to start off with.

In reply to:

Decades of hard work in areas as diverse as the environment, public health, privacy, energy conservation, world peace, the elderly, women's issues, workplace safety and more have been rolled back and undone with unprecedented speed.




Many should be rolled back as they are at best.... silly. Much of what you call "hard work" was not well thought out or put into effect by questionable executive orders.

The rest of the post is just laughable.

I for one, am quite content with MOST of the way things are. I do well because I work hard. I think that changes should not be based upon what feels good, but on sound principles that adhere to the Constitution and Bill Of Rights.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830123 - 08/20/02 11:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Decades of hard work in areas as diverse as the environment, public health, privacy, energy conservation, world peace, the elderly, women's issues, workplace safety and more have been rolled back and undone with unprecedented speed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Many should be rolled back as they are at best.... silly.


Exactly which one of those would you consider silly?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinevatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 7,653
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Rono]
    #830153 - 08/20/02 11:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleSoFarNorth
Hindu BuddistInitiate
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Far away from here
Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #830174 - 08/20/02 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Another happy consumer in the New World Order, it appears....


--------------------
"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin


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InvisibleSoFarNorth
Hindu BuddistInitiate
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Far away from here
Re: The administration [Re: vatoloco]
    #830188 - 08/20/02 12:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Here ya go!

George Bush, as is typical, spent part of his State of the Union address listing his administration's accomplishments and desires. So let's list a few he left out. In the first year, it has:



Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops

Cut federal spending on libraries by $39 million

Cut $35 million in funding for doctors to get advanced pediatric training

Revoked rules that reduced the acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water

Blocked rules that would require federal agencies to offer bilingual assistance to non-English speaking persons

Cut funding by 28 percent for research into cleaner, more efficient cars and trucks

Ended rules that would have strengthened the government's ability to deny contracts to companies that violated workplace safety, environmental and other federal laws

Abandoned Bush's campaign pledge to invest $100 million for rain forest conservation

Reduced by 86 percent the Community Access Program for public hospitals, clinics and providers of care for people without insurance

Rescinded a proposal to increase public access to information about the potential consequences resulting from chemical plant accidents

Suspended rules that would require hardrock miners to clean up sites on Western public lands

Cut $60 million from a Boy's and Girl's Clubs of America program for public housing

Proposed to eliminate a federal program, designed and successfully used in Seattle, to help communities prepare for natural disasters

Pulled out of the 1972 ABM treaty and the 1997 Kyoto global warming agreement

Cut $200 million of workforce training for dislocated workers

Eliminated funding for the Wetlands Reserve Program, which encourages farmers to maintain wetlands habitat on their property;

Cut a program to provide childcare to low-income families as they move from welfare to work

Cut a program that provided prescription contraceptive coverage to federal employees (though it still pays for Viagra)

Cut $700 million in capital funds for repairs in public housing

Cut the Environmental Protection Agency budget by $500 million

Proposed to curtail the ability of groups to sue in order to get an animal placed on the Endangered Species List

Rescinded the rule that mandated increased energy-saving efficiency regulations for central air conditioners and heat pumps

Repealed workplace ergonomic rules designed to improve worker health and safety

Abandoned campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide, the waste gas that contributes to global warming

Banned federal aid to international family planning programs that offer abortion counseling with other independent funds

Closed the White House Office for Women's Health Initiatives and Outreach

Announced intention to open up Montana's Lewis and Clark National Forest to oil and drilling

Proposed to re-draw boundaries of nation's monuments, which would technically allow oil and gas drilling "outside" of national monuments

Gutted the White House AIDS Office

Renegotiated the free trade agreement with Jordan to eliminate workers' rights and safeguards for the environment

Announced the federal government will no longer seek guidance from The American Bar Association in recommendations for the federal judiciary Appointments

Taken steps to abolish the White House Council on Environmental Quality

Cut the Community Oriented Policing Services program

Held up federal funding for stem cell research projects

Ensured convicted misdemeanor drug users cannot get financial aid for college, though convicted murderers can

Refused to fund continued cleanup of a uranium-slag heap in Utah

Refused to fund continued litigation of the government's tobacco company lawsuit

Proposed a $2 trillion tax cut, of which 43 percent will go to the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans

Signed a bill making it harder for poor and middle-class Americans to file for bankruptcy, even in the case of daunting medical bills

Cut $15.7 million earmarked for states to investigate cases of child abuse and neglect

Proposed elimination of the "Reading is Fundamental" program that gives free books to poor children

Proposed to reverse regulation protecting 60 million acres of national forest from logging and road building

Eliminated funding for the "We the People" education program which taught school children about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and citizenship

Canceled 2004 deadline for automakers to develop prototype high mileage cars

Sought the dismissal of class-action lawsuit filed in the U.S. against Japan by Asian women forced to work as sex slaves during WWII

Earmarked $4 million in new federal grant money for HIV and drug abuse prevention programs to go only to religious groups and not secular equivalents

Reduced by 40 percent the Low Income Home Assistance Program for low-income individuals who need assistance paying energy bills

Proposed to ease permit process, including environmental considerations, for refinery, nuclear and hydroelectric dam construction

Proposed to give government the authority to take private property through eminent domain for power lines

Proposed that $1.2 billion in funding for alternative renewable energy come from selling oil and gas lease tracts in the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve

Planned to serve genetically engineered foods at all official government functions.


--------------------
"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #830290 - 08/20/02 01:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I feel bad for those who believe everything they read.

*Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops
Good

*Cut federal spending on libraries by $39 million
The federal government has no business funding libraries.

*Cut $35 million in funding for doctors to get advanced pediatric training
Same as above

*Revoked rules that reduced the acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water
False, he merely wanted more study of the cost benefits.

*Blocked rules that would require federal agencies to offer bilingual assistance to non-English speaking persons
That would be nice. There should be no special assistance for non english speaking immigrants

*Cut funding by 28 percent for research into cleaner, more efficient cars and trucks
Not the federal governments business. If people want them, the car companies will provide them.

*Ended rules that would have strengthened the government's ability to deny contracts to companies that violated workplace safety, environmental and other federal laws
Not part of the federal governments business

*Abandoned Bush's campaign pledge to invest $100 million for rain forest conservation
I don't remember that. If so, good. Not our country

*Reduced by 86 percent the Community Access Program for public hospitals, clinics and providers of care for people without insurance
Good, don't spend my money on people I don't give a shit about.

*Rescinded a proposal to increase public access to information about the potential consequences resulting from chemical plant accidents
Not part of the federal governments business. That should be up to the states.

*Suspended rules that would require hardrock miners to clean up sites on Western public lands
Not part of the federal governments business. Up to the states.

*Cut $60 million from a Boy's and Girl's Clubs of America program for public housing
Good. Not part of the federal governments business

*Proposed to eliminate a federal program, designed and successfully used in Seattle, to help communities prepare for natural disasters
Not part of the federal governments business

*Pulled out of the 1972 ABM treaty and the 1997 Kyoto global warming agreement
I'd vote for him again even if for no other reasons than these.

*Cut $200 million of workforce training for dislocated workers
Not part of the federal governments business

*Eliminated funding for the Wetlands Reserve Program, which encourages farmers to maintain wetlands habitat on their property;
Good

*Cut a program to provide childcare to low-income families as they move from welfare to work
Good, there should be no welfare.


*Cut a program that provided prescription contraceptive coverage to federal employees (though it still pays for Viagra)
Neither should be covered.

*Cut $700 million in capital funds for repairs in public housing
Not part of the federal governments business

*Cut the Environmental Protection Agency budget by $500 million
Not part of the federal governments business

*Proposed to curtail the ability of groups to sue in order to get an animal placed on the Endangered Species List
Very good. Not part of the federal governments business

*Rescinded the rule that mandated increased energy-saving efficiency regulations for central air conditioners and heat pumps
Not part of the federal governments business

*
Repealed workplace ergonomic rules designed to improve
worker health and safety
Not part of the federal governments business

*Abandoned campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide, the waste gas that contributes to global warming
I like it warm. Most carbon dioxide comes from people and animals anyway. Should we kill them all off to help prevent any warming at all?

*Banned federal aid to international family planning programs that offer abortion counseling with other independent funds
Not part of the federal governments business

*Closed the White House Office for Women's Health Initiatives and Outreach
Not part of the federal governments business

*Announced intention to open up Montana's Lewis and Clark National Forest to oil and drilling
Good for him.

*Proposed to re-draw boundaries of nation's monuments, which would technically allow oil and gas drilling "outside" of national monuments
Bravo

*Gutted the White House AIDS Office
Not part of the federal governments business

*Renegotiated the free trade agreement with Jordan to eliminate workers' rights and safeguards for the environment
So what?

*Announced the federal government will no longer seek guidance from The American Bar Association in recommendations for the federal judiciary Appointments
Good. They're a bunch of left wing asses anyway.

*Taken steps to abolish the White House Council on Environmental Quality
Not part of the federal governments business

*Cut the Community Oriented Policing Services program
I bet you don't even like cops.

*Held up federal funding for stem cell research projects
Not part of the federal governments business

*Ensured convicted misdemeanor drug users cannot get financial aid for college, though convicted murderers can
Not part of the federal governments business, there should be no federal aid.

*Refused to fund continued cleanup of a uranium-slag heap in Utah
Not part of the federal governments business

*Refused to fund continued litigation of the government's tobacco company lawsuit
Not part of the federal governments business and if people are stupid enough to still be smoking, they deserve what ever smoking related diseases they get.

*Proposed a $2 trillion tax cut, of which 43 percent will go to the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans
You mean to the wealthiest taxpayers. If they pay more taxes, they deserve a bigger slice of the cut.

*Signed a bill making it harder for poor and middle-class Americans to file for bankruptcy, even in the case of daunting medical bills
Not part of the federal governments business

*Cut $15.7 million earmarked for states to investigate cases of child abuse and neglect
Not part of the federal governments business

*Proposed elimination of the "Reading is Fundamental" program that gives free books to poor children
Not part of the federal governments business

*Proposed to reverse regulation protecting 60 million acres of national forest from logging and road building
Not part of the federal governments business

*Eliminated funding for the "We the People" education program which taught school children about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and citizenship
Not part of the federal governments business

*Canceled 2004 deadline for automakers to develop prototype high mileage cars
Not part of the federal governments business

*Sought the dismissal of class-action lawsuit filed in the U.S. against Japan by Asian women forced to work as sex slaves during WWII
So what

*Earmarked $4 million in new federal grant money for HIV and drug abuse prevention programs to go only to religious groups and not secular equivalents
Not part of the federal governments business

*Reduced by 40 percent the Low Income Home Assistance Program for low-income individuals who need assistance paying energy bills
Not part of the federal governments business

*Proposed to ease permit process, including environmental considerations, for refinery, nuclear and hydroelectric dam construction
Good

*Proposed to give government the authority to take private property through eminent domain for power lines
That I don't like if it's true

*Proposed that $1.2 billion in funding for alternative renewable energy come from selling oil and gas lease tracts in the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve
Not part of the federal governments business

*Planned to serve genetically engineered foods at all official government functions.
Sure he did, and if so, who cares?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/20/02 01:03 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830363 - 08/20/02 01:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Um...

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like your stance on what the american government should do consists entirely of going into other countries and blowing shit up, while not giving a flying fuck about what goes on within its own borders.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #830367 - 08/20/02 01:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have read and re-read that post by luvdemshrooms and for the life of me I honestly wonder if even he knows what he's typing.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830368 - 08/20/02 01:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

*Abandoned campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide, the waste gas that contributes to global warming
I like it warm. Most carbon dioxide comes from people and animals anyway. Should we kill them all off to help prevent any warming at all?

I can see you're a science major... I think you've pretty much voided your right to call ANYONE silly or stupid if you're going to make statements like this.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSoFarNorth
Hindu BuddistInitiate
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Far away from here
Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #830379 - 08/20/02 01:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yep, no point in even arguing with him...'his minds made up, don't confuse him with the facts'


--------------------
"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #830382 - 08/20/02 01:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Where do you think carbon dioxide comes from?
From what I have read, people exhale about 1 kg per day.
Multiply that by the number of people, facteo in the animals, what do you have? Beats me since I haven't a clue as to how many animals there are. But if you'd choose to believe all the propoganda you read, I can't help that. Oh, don't forget to factor in volcanos and forest fires.

Here's a chart.
http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/pns/graphics/globcarb.gif


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/20/02 01:59 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #830390 - 08/20/02 01:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I knew exactly what I was typing. Read the constitution and the bill of rights. Focus in on #10.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/20/02 02:13 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830553 - 08/20/02 03:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


No point in even arguing with leftists...'their minds are made up, don't confuse them with the facts'


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The administration [Re: ]
    #830582 - 08/20/02 03:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

No point in even arguing with leftists...'their minds are made up, don't confuse them with the facts'



Hope springs eternal.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830628 - 08/20/02 04:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Actually I'm still waiting for facts...all I've seen is opinions.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #830662 - 08/20/02 04:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono, perhaps a search of this post is in order for you. Other than the prior post where I quoted a sentence.... did you see the word fact in any of those (my) other posts?

Now, re-read what I have written in response to the "list" of GW's sins. Now read the 10th ammendment. Where am I wrong in the list? It's possible I am, but I think a reading of the list after reading the 10th will show that most if not all, including some I didn't write "not the feds business, are not constitutional.

And as to the carbon dioxide... did you look at the link?
Respiration = 50 GtC
Fossil Fuels and Cement Production = 6.2 GTC

Let's kill all humans and save the planet!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/20/02 04:26 PM)


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830817 - 08/20/02 05:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

wow u give a shit about the constitution - yet support the government that is tearing it apart?

confusing


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The administration [Re: foghorn]
    #831700 - 08/21/02 12:37 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I support the government. No I don't agree with everything they do. However I support a large majority of what they do.

As a side note.... where are all the posters who responded to my remarks on carbon dioxide and who thought I shouldn't post any more? Chart shut you up did it?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #831808 - 08/21/02 01:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

luvdemshrooms was quite correct in pointing out the areas in which the federal government is prohibited from acting. If anything, I think he missed a few.

The Constitution prevents the federal government from involving itself in certain areas. Unfortunately, there are tons of federal laws on the books that violate this constitutional restriction. It's nice to see this administration eliminate some of them, but my bet is there will be more enacted than are repealed. That's the way it has been with every administration since the New Deal.

I'm not surprised to see that it's mainly the Canadians having a hard time making this connection. In Canada, the government is perceived as "Daddy", and every time someone has difficulty in his life -- ANY difficulty -- he runs to the government, wailing "There oughta be a law about... (fill in the blank). Daddy, help me! Do something about it!" Unfortunately, there is an increasing tendency for Americans to do the same thing, but they have less excuse for doing so than Canadians, because (in theory, at least), they have all taken a few Civics classes in school.

This tendency to view the proper function of government as a combination nanny/hall-monitor/Santa Claus is stronger in almost all Canadians than it is in the average American, but it is particularly noticeable in the younger Canadians. I can't in good conscience blame them for it. They're as thoroughly indoctrinated from infancy by the media, their teachers, and politicians as any Soviet youth ever was. They honestly believe that this is what government is all about because they have never been told otherwise. It takes a very strong mind to overcome this conditioning.

I get frustrated at some of the posts they make here, and I'm afraid I sometimes get a little harsh in my replies. This is an error on my part. I tend to forget exactly how hard it is to undo years of brainwashing, and how hard it is to form opinions contrary to those of the herd.

So, guys, when you see them post something that TO YOU seems to make no sense, remember that TO THEM (and to almost all their teachers, parents, friends, newspaper editors, and members of parliament) not only does it make sense, but no other way of looking at it CAN make sense.

It's not always a sign of stupidity, it's a cultural thing.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832052 - 08/21/02 06:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Luvdemshrooms, I never replied until now because A) I need sleep occasionally and B) I never disagreed with you on the carbon dioxide emissions issue. I think the cutting down of forrests is the bigger issue than Carbon Dioxide emissions...since the trees are what use the Cardon dioxide to make oxygen...with less trees, more carbon dioxide, hence global warming...it's a pretty basic theory I admit, but that's also just my opinion, not fact as far as I know.

In response to Pinky...Perhaps you are right, it MAY be a cultural thingas to what we expect from the government, because I do believe that free access to health care should be a right not a privelege to those that can afford it...perhaps that's why we have such a high standard of life in comparison to the rest of the world.
I will agree that we tend to rely on the government for alot of things, but in general we have a relatively low unemployment rate and because we tend to rely on government we also tend to keep an eye on what it's doing...we don't put up with the corruption that seems to be rampant in the U.S. government...basically, if you fuck up, you're history..end of story. In the U.S. if you fuck up, you're given more power.

How are Canadians any more brainwashed than Americans?...if anything I would say we are less brainwashed. Most of us are actually familiar with the world outside our borders...and their views and beliefs..can you say the same about most Americans?

***please note...the following is a theory*** Since Americans basic needs aren't provided for, they feel the need to sue anyone that hurts their feelings...."Waaaah!, the hot coffee that I asked for, and you served me was too hot!...I need a bazillion dollars to repair my mental anguish!..gimme gimme gimme!" Am I wrong on this?

Anyways, I honestly do not want to turn this into another lame Canada vs. U.S. rant...because both countries have their pros and cons. My only contention is with the U.S. government and it's global actions recently...which I'll continue to argue against until I'm blue in the face...



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/02 06:30 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The administration [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #832114 - 08/21/02 06:47 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No, not really. I don't know a ton about carbon dioxide and pollution, and I'm sure you don't either. I don't think you even understand that chart, really. You just found it on some site and posted it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832119 - 08/21/02 06:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I don't see how we could be more brainwashed about your government. The Canadian media isn't wildly anti-american, they just take a more objective view when reporting on its actions. Compare CNN to media sources from around the world, like CBC and BBC, you'll notice that there's a lot of stories that CNN just outright ignores.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSoFarNorth
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Re: The administration [Re: ]
    #832158 - 08/21/02 07:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hey -
I used to be like you in this, then I moved to Idaho, where the 'less is more' form of gov't is in full swing, with approximately 90% of the elected posts being held by Republican party members. Then I saw how badly it turns out in real life.

* Our public schools are in a shambles, since it is next to impossible to raise a tax or bond to pay for them. The state has cut off funding to the schools to the point where the state Supreme Court has ordered them to release money to bring the schools up to a minimum of habitability. This is not to pay for luxuries, but for things like heating oil and to patch roofs.

* The state has passed, on three separate occasions, term limits laws via referendum. This year, the legislature overturned these - ignoring the rule of the people.

* The state legislature is governed by Sunshine Laws in which everything is supposed to be discussed in open forum. The GOP has subverted this by holding 'caucuses' (legally allowed to be private, due to party business) wherein they decide all matters of importance, and only come out in public to vote.

* The state allows bluegrass farmers to burn their fields in the fall to increase production rates, although this is documented to cause health problems in the population and was the direct cause of a woman's death last year.

* The county gov't rolls over to *any* development, so that we now have a train refueling station sitting above the aquifer that is the sole water source for 750,000 people. Similar stations in other states have always leaked fuel in to the ground beneath them.

* We have the worst meth problem in the country, primarily due to a lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment.

* Idaho's poverty and child malnutrition rates both increased during the boom times of the 90's. The legislature did manage to cut taxes by $100 million a year, though.

There is more, but it gets depressing to repeat it.

This is why I have no longer have faith in the conservative agenda. It has failed profoundly, much like the Communist doctrine did in Russia. They look good on paper, but get ruined in execution. I don't know if re-regulation will solve the problems, but I know that de-reg has failed, so I'm willing to look at it again.



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"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832167 - 08/21/02 07:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

...because I do believe that free access to health care should be a right...

Why? WHY do you believe free medical care is a right but not free food or free housing or free winter clothing?

I have never understood why people insist that free medical care (which is far from free, of course -- it's funded by increased taxation) is a RIGHT. No one ever thought of it as such before the late Sixties, but now it has been commonly accepted by Canadians that it is not just "a nice thing to have", but an actual RIGHT. It is, of course, not a right at all.

...we don't put up with the corruption that seems to be rampant in the U.S. government...

Now that's excellent news! So Jean Chretien's days are numbered. Glad to hear it.

Most of us are actually familiar with the world outside our borders...and their views and beliefs..can you say the same about most Americans?

I don't know. I was born and raised in Canada and left the country in my thirties. I have spent the last fifteen years in the Dominican Republic. The Americans I meet here seem to know as much about international affairs as the Canadians and Europeans I meet here, but they may not be a representative sampling of Americans as a whole. Maybe the ones who don't travel are more ignorant.

Since Americans basic needs aren't provided for...

Which needs would those be?

...they feel the need to sue anyone that hurts their feelings....

Civil suits are a MUCH better solution for rectifying perceived wrongs than enacting new legislation. See the following reasons:

a) The issue is decided by EXISTING institutions under EXISTING law. No need to set up new bureaucracies or pass new legislation.

b) The only ones affected by the dispute are the ones directly involved in it, not the entire populace.

c) The loser pays the court costs. If some doofus brings a frivolous suit with no chance in hell of being won in the hopes of striking it rich, he pays the penalty for tying up resources (the courts) which could be better utilized on serious issues. When government tries to resolve things, we ALL pay (and pay and pay).

d) If he DOES win his case he (usually) receives a much higher compensation for his grievance than any government legislation would have provided him, at ZERO cost to the taxpayers.

There's probably other reasons I can't think of at the moment, but these four alone should be sufficient.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832193 - 08/21/02 07:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Why? WHY do you believe free medical care is a right but not free food or free housing or free winter clothing?


Because health is something that affects everyone directly...with poor health, you have less people working because they are unable to, you have the threat of a contagious disease becoming rampant, that could have have easily been treated with innoculations. You are taking it to extremes by talking about free food, free housing etc...I am not talking aobut communism...I am talking about a government ensuring it's citizens are healthy, productive members of society. I could just as easily go to extremes about your point of view, but it serves no purpose.
In reply to:

So Jean Chretien's days are numbered. Glad to hear it


Yes..they are...although I can't stand the man, I doubt his level of corruption is anything remotely close to GW's
In reply to:

Maybe the ones who don't travel are more ignorant


This I agree with...for the simple reason that once they travel, they have no choice but to witness other cultures. But very little is taught in schools in regards to the world in general.
In reply to:

Civil suits are a MUCH better solution for rectifying perceived wrongs than enacting new legislation


Obviously you I are never going to agree on this point..I think they are waste of time and money. Frivolous law suits are won everyday by morons that feel they were "wronged" or know that they can get money in an out of court settlement. So legislations end up getting passed anyways to prevent more of these idiotic lawsuits...



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832199 - 08/21/02 07:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Should the rich be charged the same for the same medical procedure as the poor?

I don't think health should be considered a market commodity. No one should be denied health care simply because they do not have the means to pay for it.

What is your health worth to you?

Everything you have.

This is what many non-wealthy people pay for their health.

There is no logical reason for the wealthy to pay less, and they are paying less if they're not paying all that they have, while some others are.

Health isn't the same as cars, or digital watches and shouldn't be treated the same.



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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #832200 - 08/21/02 07:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

SoFarNorth writes:

...with approximately 90% of the elected posts being held by Republican party members.

Were the proper electoral procedures followed? If so, then it is obviously the "will of the majority", right?

... the state Supreme Court has ordered them to release money to bring the schools up to a minimum of habitability.

Then the problem is solved, no?

The state has passed, on three separate occasions, term limits laws via referendum. This year, the legislature overturned these - ignoring the rule of the people.

Ah. So the Idaho State Constitution says that the voters are allowed to elect their representatives but may override the decisions of these legally elected representatives through referenda? If this is the case, then any first-year law student should have no difficulty convincing the State Supreme Court to reverse the State legislature. When is the challenge due to be argued?

The GOP has subverted this by holding 'caucuses' (legally allowed to be private, due to party business) wherein they decide all matters of importance, and only come out in public to vote.

I don't understand. Are you saying that an opposition member in the legislature may not raise whatever points he wishes in the discussion period before the vote is held? If the opposition is in fact muzzled in this manner, and if this restriction is a violation of the State constituion, the State Supreme Court can set them straight.

...this is documented to cause health problems in the population and was the direct cause of a woman's death last year.

Sounds like those with documented health problems and the family of the woman in question have a lock on a big juicy lawsuit.

Similar stations in other states have always leaked fuel in to the ground beneath them.

So it is a given that this will be the case with this particular station as well? If the environmental agencies determine early on that there is leakage, may the state order the station shut down?

We have the worst meth problem in the country, primarily due to a lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment.

This is a problem EVERYWHERE in the US. Due to the WOD, huge amounts of money get spent in the wrong areas. Unfortunately, the feds won't allow individual states to decriminalize. There's not a lot that Idaho (or any other state) can do about it.

Idaho's poverty and child malnutrition rates both increased during the boom times of the 90's.

And this is due to exactly which policy (or policies) enacted by the Idaho State Legislature? You say the nineties were a boom time. This was true of the US as a whole, but not all states had the same increase. Was the increase of GSP (gross state product) in Idaho in the nineties significant?

pinky











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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832216 - 08/21/02 08:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"It is, of course, not a right at all."
Well, in Canada it's pretty much a right. We all have free health care. Nobody goes bankrupt because they can't afford to be operated on, and nobody stays home for as long as they can to avoid paying medical bills.

You can tell me over and over that people should get health insurance, but that fact is they simply don't. I worked as a telemarketer for a few days (I know, I know), calling americans, and trying to sell them some sort of bullshit health plan. About half of them had no kind of health coverage. Sure, they should have. That would have been the smart thing to do, but lots of them had jobs and were productive members of society... just that if they got into and accident they would be fucked financially. In Canada this doesn't happen. Health care is covered.

Civil suits are a nuisance. People can sue anyone in the US, even if they don't win they still force the person to go down and defend themselves. It can, and has been over "mental distress" for bouncing a basketball in the driveway next door. I'm sure you all know about the guy suing fast food places for making him fat.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #832220 - 08/21/02 08:10 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In America free education is not just a right, it's manditory.



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InvisibleSoFarNorth
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832238 - 08/21/02 08:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

...with approximately 90% of the elected posts being held by Republican party members.

Were the proper electoral procedures followed? If so, then it is obviously the "will of the majority", right?

*** Yes, they were. Here is where there might finally be some changes, the people have seen the lack of good governance, and the rise of arrogance that the state GOP has manifested and voted a large number of GOP incumbents out in this summer's primaries. The Dem's are expected to pick up a number of additional seats this fall.

... the state Supreme Court has ordered them to release money to bring the schools up to a minimum of habitability.

Then the problem is solved, no?

*** No. The legislature has stonewalled the SC and refused to comply - we have two branches of the state gov in a pissing contest, just one big disfunctional family. By the way, if the subject was less important, this would be fun to watch - what do you do when one branch of the gov't, through passive resistance, fails to do what another branch orders them to do? Who enforces it?

The state has passed, on three separate occasions, term limits laws via referendum. This year, the legislature overturned these - ignoring the rule of the people.

Ah. So the Idaho State Constitution says that the voters are allowed to elect their representatives but may override the decisions of these legally elected representatives through referenda? If this is the case, then any first-year law student should have no difficulty convincing the State Supreme Court to reverse the State legislature. When is the challenge due to be argued?

*** The SC threw out a case brought to it on this matter, w/o hearing it. It is being brought back to the table via another referendum this fall.

The GOP has subverted this by holding 'caucuses' (legally allowed to be private, due to party business) wherein they decide all matters of importance, and only come out in public to vote.

I don't understand. Are you saying that an opposition member in the legislature may not raise whatever points he wishes in the discussion period before the vote is held? If the opposition is in fact muzzled in this manner, and if this restriction is a violation of the State constituion, the State Supreme Court can set them straight.

*** The GOP holds 90% of the state elected offices and set the rules for debate on the house floor. The Dem's repeatedly try to bring points for discussion and are just as repeatedly shut down by the Rep's; the Dem's have essentially no voice whatsoever in state politics here. The only interesting debate is between the middle and far right wings of the GOP

...this is documented to cause health problems in the population and was the direct cause of a woman's death last year.

Sounds like those with documented health problems and the family of the woman in question have a lock on a big juicy lawsuit

*** In play as I write this.

Similar stations in other states have always leaked fuel in to the ground beneath them.

So it is a given that this will be the case with this particular station as well? If the environmental agencies determine early on that there is leakage, may the state order the station shut down?

*** Obviously, no one can say whether it's a given. The state claims they have absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter. The county claimed they had no jurisdiction. The fed's, via the Surface Transportation Board, declined to take any action in the matter. The railroad got to do whatever it damned well pleased.

We have the worst meth problem in the country, primarily due to a lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment.

This is a problem EVERYWHERE in the US. Due to the WOD, huge amounts of money get spent in the wrong areas. Unfortunately, the feds won't allow individual states to decriminalize. There's not a lot that Idaho (or any other state) can do about it.

*** I might buy this, except that the starting wage for county sheriff's here is roughly $24k/year. The cops tend to stay just long enough to get some experience and then bolt for higher paying jobs, leaving the county chronically short in law enforcement manpower. I'm no supporter of the WOD, but meth is screwing things up for everyone in everyway in the northwest. The problem here is worse than than I've seen in the other states I've lived in (Indiana, Florida, Kansas, California, Rhode ISland) . Evil shit, that.

Idaho's poverty and child malnutrition rates both increased during the boom times of the 90's.

And this is due to exactly which policy (or policies) enacted by the Idaho State Legislature? You say the nineties were a boom time. This was true of the US as a whole, but not all states had the same increase. Was the increase of GSP (gross state product) in Idaho in the nineties significant?

*** In their rush to cut taxes, Idaho cut numerous programs, including food stamp type programs, child health insurance (policy issuer of last resort for indigent families), child dental and medical programs. Idaho's GSP doubled in the 90's from $17739 million in 1990 to $34025 million in 1999 - I consider that significant.






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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832248 - 08/21/02 08:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

...you have the threat of a contagious disease becoming rampant, that could have have easily been treated with innoculations.

Oh, please. There have always been mass innoculations in grade schools... at least since the fifties that I KNOW about, and probably before then. That is not the same thing at all as carte blanche complete medical care for everything from bunions to the common cold -- it may be properly classified as an emergency situation.

You are taking it to extremes by talking about free food, free housing etc...

How is that extreme? You say the government is ensuring its citizens are healthy and productive. Yet it is undeniable that those who have proper nutrition and are protected from the elements are healthier than those who aren't. It is also undeniable that it is easier prevent an illness (for example with good nutrition and protection from the elements) than to cure one.

Further, the vast majority of people go through most of their lives needing very little medical attention. If they never saw a doctor for the first fifty years of their lives, they would be able to survive, even to thrive. Yet someone living in a tent in Calgary in winter and trying to eat only what he can find in dumpsters will be in pretty bad shape.

Food and shelter are literally everyday NECESSITIES. Medical care for most people is not a NECESSITY.

I think they are waste of time and money.

Of COURSE they are! That's the POINT -- in a lawsuit the only individuals wasting time and money are the plaintiff and the defendent, rather than an entire nation.

Frivolous law suits are won everyday by morons that feel they were "wronged" or know that they can get money in an out of court settlement.

True, but what no one ever points out is that many, MANY more are either lost (at a financial penalty to the moron who thought he could get away with it) or dismissed outright before trial by the judge. But these cases never make the news.

So legislations end up getting passed anyways to prevent more of these idiotic lawsuits...

As it should be. In a situation like that, court decisions serve as an alarm system. If there are dozens of cases being brought before the courts involving the same issue, it indicates either:

a) There are a hell of a lot of people violating existing legislation, in which case the police or the various regulatory agencies should be enforcing it more strictly

or

b) There is a common problem not currently addressed satisfactorily by existing legislation. Now it IS time for the legislators to get involved.

pinky




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Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #832271 - 08/21/02 08:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Baby Hitler writes:

Should the rich be charged the same for the same medical procedure as the poor?


Should the rich be charged the same price for a pound of hamburger as the poor? Yes. Should a rich man pay the same for his ulcer medication as a poor man? Yes.

No one should be denied health care simply because they do not have the means to pay for it.

Then why should someone be denied food, clothing, or shelter simply because they do not have the means to pay for it? Starvation will kill you a lot faster than an ulcer will, and hypothermia will kill you in less than an hour.

There is no logical reason for the wealthy to pay less, and they are paying less if they're not paying all that they have, while some others are.

What? By this same argument, if a poor person pays sixty per cent of his after-tax income for a studio apartment, Bill Gates must do the same.

Health isn't the same as cars, or digital watches and shouldn't be treated the same.

But it is the same as food or shelter... in fact, for the vast majority of people for the greatest part of their lives, it is far LESS important than daily food or shelter. See my reply to Rono above.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832280 - 08/21/02 08:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Oh, please. There have always been mass innoculations in grade schools


So you agree with the government providing innoculations?...uh oh...watch out...Pinky MUST be a communist.
In reply to:

How is that extreme? You say the government is ensuring its citizens are healthy and productive. Yet it is undeniable that those who have proper nutrition and are protected from the elements are healthier than those who aren't


Because if the government provided all housing we would all be living in the same type of house...I am not communist and I think that there should be incentive to work for a living, providing free housing does not promote that. Providing free food is another matter altogether...I don't think anyone should go hungry...EVER. And though I think providing free food isn't an entirely bad idea, it isn't feasible. The hungry generally DO get fed...Soup Kitchens etc...same as in the U.S.
In reply to:

Of COURSE they are! That's the POINT -- in a lawsuit the only individuals wasting time and money are the plaintiff and the defendent, rather than an entire nation.


Until legislations get passed because of said lawsuits, thereby wasting the time of the entire nation anyways. What's the difference?


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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832289 - 08/21/02 08:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not talking about free toe medicine for itchy feet.

I'm talking about life saving treatment.

And no, I don't think someone should be allowed to die because they have no money, and am all for legislation to prevent that.

I do prefer private organizations to handle it, but most of them are crackpot church nazis who only help their own.


Should we kill the "free" education in America as well?


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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #832307 - 08/21/02 09:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Phluck writes:

Well, in Canada it's pretty much a right.

It is an "entitlement", not a right. This is a favorite trick of politicians -- calling a pet program a "right". If it was a right, it would have existed for a lot longer than thirty-four years.

You can tell me over and over that people should get health insurance, but that fact is they simply don't.

People should do lots of things they don't. What's your point?

About half of them had no kind of health coverage.

That should tell you something, shouldn't it? Most people are smart enough to realize that insurance companies make a profit.  That's because, on average, they receive more money in premiums than they pay out in claims. In other words, the average person would spend less money on medical expenses over the course of his life than he would in insurance premiums.

I've had no health insurance for almost fifteen years now, so I know where those people are coming from. I could have it if I wanted to (and I would receive much better benefits at a much lower cost than when I was "covered" by the Ontario health care system) but I chose to invest the money I would have spent on health insurance on other things. That was my decision, taken after careful consideration. In Canada I had no choice in the matter.

Civil suits are a nuisance.

Agreed. But they are not a nuisance to the entire country, only to the defendent.

People can sue anyone in the US...

Not true. Countless thousands of meritless lawsuits are dismissed by the courts at the preliminary hearing stage.

... even if they don't win they still force the person to go down and defend themselves.

This is true of criminal prosecutions as well. But in a civil suit, the defendent recoups his legal costs, and is often awarded further compensation for "nuisance damages". In a criminal case, you may end up being in jail for months awaiting trial, paying all the money you have for a lawyer, and when you are acquitted you walk away without even a "sorry about that." What's your point?

pinky
 


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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832342 - 08/21/02 09:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

So you agree with the government providing innoculations?...uh oh...watch out...Pinky MUST be a communist.

Actually, I don't believe that even vaccinations should be free. They cost so little that anyone can afford them. I was merely pointing out that even if the government DOES provide free vaccinations for life-threatening infectious diseases that present a clear and present danger to the populace as a whole (polio, smallpox, tuberculosis, etc.) it is not even close to being the same thing as providing free blanket medical care for everything from bunions to bursitis. The threat of an epidemic can properly be considered a national emergency. Your case of jock itch doesn't qualify.

I think that there should be incentive to work for a living, providing free housing does not promote that.

And universal free medical care is incentive to live a healthy lifestyle? "Why stop smoking? The government will buy me a new set of lungs."

Until legislations get passed because of said lawsuits, thereby wasting the time of the entire nation anyways. What's the difference?

Re-read my post. If the lawsuits are frivolous, legislation is not needed. If they aren't frivolous, legislation may be needed. What part of

"In a situation like that, court decisions serve as an alarm system. If there are dozens of cases being brought before the courts involving the same issue, it indicates either:

a) There are a hell of a lot of people violating existing legislation, in which case the police or the various regulatory agencies should be enforcing it more strictly

or

b) There is a common problem not currently addressed satisfactorily by existing legislation. Now it IS time for the legislators to get involved."


did you find unclear? I will try to explain it in simpler terms if it will help.

pinky





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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832357 - 08/21/02 09:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Actually, I don't believe that even vaccinations should be free.


So someone that can't afford food or shelter will somehow have the money for vaccinations?
In reply to:

And universal free medical care is incentive to live a healthy lifestyle? "Why stop smoking? The government will buy me a new set of lungs."


You're going to extremes again...The incentive to live a healthy lifestyle is self evident...HEALTH...do you think that people enjoy being sick?
In reply to:

Re-read my post. If the lawsuits are frivolous, legislation is not needed. If they aren't frivolous, legislation may be needed


I understand exactly what you are trying to say, and even agree with it to an extent...all I'm asking is how is it any different than when the Canadiain governent (for example) sees a problem and corrects it BEFORE it can be made into a frivolous law suit...we obviously have law suits as well, there is a need for them sometimes. But when the court system is getting clogged up by greedy retards then it becomes an issue.


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Edited by Rono (08/21/02 09:29 AM)


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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #832380 - 08/21/02 09:35 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

SoFarNorth writes:

Here is where there might finally be some changes, the people have seen the lack of good governance...

So, problem soon to be resolved.

what do you do when one branch of the gov't, through passive resistance, fails to do what another branch orders them to do? Who enforces it?

Only one answer, I guess. Vote them out of office at the earliest opportunity.

The GOP holds 90% of the state elected offices and set the rules for debate on the house floor.

Ah, I see. So according to the constitution of the state of Idaho, the majority party gets to decide the rules of debate; they are not cast in stone.

Short of a constitutional amendment, then, it looks like nothing can be done by the opposition except to continue to vote their conscience and rip a strip off the majority in the free press, hoping that next election THEY will win enough seats to set the rules of debate.

I might buy this, except that the starting wage for county sheriff's here is roughly $24k/year.

I don't understand. I thought your beef was not with the law enforcement angle, but with a "lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment." How will increasing the base salary of law enforcement officers free up funds for treatment?

Idaho cut numerous programs, including food stamp type programs, child health insurance (policy issuer of last resort for indigent families), child dental and medical programs.

I presume if most voters in Idaho agreed that welfare was a good thing, they would have elected representatives to the state legislature who support welfare programs. Problem should be solved next election.

pinky



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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832417 - 08/21/02 09:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

As a matter of fact, the insurance industry has a higher profit margin than almost any other. That's because, on average, they receive more money in premiums than they pay out in claims.




Actually, I'd vote for someone who wanted to buy out all the insurance companies and institute a federal non-profit insuring agency.

That would be just fine with me.


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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832478 - 08/21/02 10:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

So someone that can't afford food or shelter will somehow have the money for vaccinations?

A polio injection costs a few bucks. And no, someone who can afford neither food nor shelter will likely not spend the little money he has on a vaccination, he'll buy a package of hot dogs or a warm coat, because he knows he'll die a lot faster from starvation or exposure than he will from polio. A corpse doesn't contract a contagious disease.

THAT'S MY POINT, if you still haven't grasped it. Food and shelter are obviously MORE IMPORTANT than vaccinations. Why then should the government provide free vaccinations but not free food? It's not logical.

The incentive to live a healthy lifestyle is self evident...HEALTH...do you think that people enjoy being sick?

Apparently some do. There's certainly no shortage of overweight, artery-clogged smokers in Canada.

...all I'm asking is how is it any different than when the Canadiain governent (for example) sees a problem and corrects it BEFORE it can be made into a frivolous law suit...

Because the Canadian method of government is to treat EVERY damn little inconvenience or bizarre one-off occurrence that MIGHT just happen again, sometime, somewhere, as a problem that CAN ONLY be cured with new legislation and MORE new legislation. "When your only tool is a hammer, you see life as a forest of nails."

Here's an example of something as stupid as any civil lawsuit. In the capital city of Canada, it is against the law to have more than four dogs or four cats in a residential home. Why is that, you ask?

This came about because some batty old woman had a soft spot in her heart for stray cats, and ended up looking after thirty-odd abandoned kitties. The neighbors were incensed because the cats dug up gardens, caught birds, howled at night when in heat, etc.

Did the authorities resolve this issue by telling the woman she must keep her cats indoors, neuter them, or whatever? Nope. Did they make her pay for the damage done to the gardens of the neighbors, as provided for by existing nuisance legislation? Nope. They passed a law limiting the number of pets ANYONE may own.

So now, if you live in Ottawa and your dog gives birth to more than three puppies in a litter, you are automatically breaking the law.

I followed this whole process on one of my vacations to Ottawa to visit my parents. To me, what was even more astonishing than the thought of well-paid politicians wasting their time on this "problem" was the fact that neither of the two city newspapers found anything odd about the whole farce. It was reported as straight news. No letters to the editor were sent (or at least none were published) pointing out the absurdity of the situation, no politicians stood up and protested this egregious waste of time and taxpayer's money. It was just universally accepted that, "Yes, this is a problem. We must pass a law so it won't happen again."

This attitude is just so typically CANADIAN. That's why I said in a previous post that it's a cultural trait. This of course was not federal legislation, it was a municipal law. It illustrates with crystalline clarity that it's not just the federal politicians who possess this mindset of government as the answer to all the woes of the world; it's Canadians as a whole.

It's a prime example of something that could have (and should have) been dealt with in small claims court, using existing legislation to resolve the issue. But oh, no! This is CANADA! It makes much more sense to make every owner of a pregnant dog a criminal.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #832480 - 08/21/02 10:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, I'd vote for someone who wanted to buy out all the insurance companies and institute a federal non-profit insuring agency.
That's right, run 'em with the efficiency of the post office and accounting practices more dishonest than Enron's.

Bad idea.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832502 - 08/21/02 10:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

There's certainly no shortage of overweight, artery-clogged smokers in Canada


Bad example...I think you'll notice, there is no shortage of those people in ANY first world country...in fact the U.S. has more than any country in the world.
In reply to:

In the capital city of Canada, it is against the law to have more than four dogs or four cats in a residential home


Don't even try to tell me that the U.S. (or any other country) deosn't have assinine laws like that..it happens...If you like I can post alot of stupid laws in U.S. cities that are far more laughable than limiting dogs and cats.
In reply to:

This attitude is just so typically CANADIAN. That's why I said in a previous post that it's a cultural trait. This of course was not federal legislation, it was a municipal law. It illustrates with crystalline clarity that it's not just the federal politicians who possess this mindset of government as the answer to all the woes of the world; it's Canadians as a whole.


See above...you think it's a Canadian trait?...I think it's a political trait..regardless of the country.


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Edited by Rono (08/21/02 10:35 AM)


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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #833110 - 08/21/02 12:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I find the chart easy to understand in terms of the flow of carbon dioxide. I'll confess that other than being some form of measure, I haven't a clue what a GtC is.

I would find it hard to believe that you really can't grasp what that chart means. Unless perhaps it's because it doesn't mesh with what it appears you would like to believe.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: The administration [Re: ]
    #833261 - 08/21/02 01:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I dare you to try to talk the guy at the UPS office to deliver a single letter to an address accross the country for under a dollar.

Surely you can find a better example than the Post Office.


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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #833264 - 08/21/02 01:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No Shit!

I can't even drive barefooted, or bathe with my horse anymore.


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Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #833323 - 08/21/02 02:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I dare you to try to talk the guy at the UPS office to deliver a single letter to an address accross the country for under a dollar.
The government will not allow competition in this area, many years ago Lysander Spooner started a private postal service but the feds put him out of business. Additionally, the Postal Service keeps getting bailed out and subsidized by the tax payers because they are an inefficient government run enterprise - the fees you pay are subsidized and do not reflect the actual cost.

Surely you can find a better example than the Post Office.
Social Security, if this were run by the private sector the same way it is run by the government the operators of this ponzi scheme would be jailed for fraud and misappropriation of funds.

The Forest Service, look at the recent wildfires which consumed record numbers of acres and destroyed people's homes. I don't know what the exact figures are, but the last time I read about it, for every 1 dollar that the forest service was receiving for lumber harvested from government owned lands, it was costing the taxpayer 3 dollars in operational expenses. No privately owned timberlands are operated this way, if they are, the owners quickly go bankrupt and their assests are sold.


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Re: The administration [Re: ]
    #833359 - 08/21/02 02:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What is your source for this information?


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Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #835233 - 08/22/02 07:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I was citing things from memory, but I did some searches and came up with a few links regarding the various subjects....

The Postal Monopoly

Social Security:
quick facts
or
or
or
or
From Social Security Administration's own websight...

National Fire Plan
Logging Data (sorry it's not more current)


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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #835273 - 08/22/02 07:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"THAT'S MY POINT, if you still haven't grasped it. Food and shelter are obviously MORE IMPORTANT than vaccinations. Why then should the government provide free vaccinations but not free food? It's not logical."

What you obviously have failed to grasp is that food and shelter are more important for the individual, while vaccinations are important for society as a whole. If you can give out free vaccinations to everyone, you can do to other diseases what we've done to smallpox... eliminate it. Otherwise you end up with an upper class that is immune to many major diseases, and a lower class that is ravaged by infections.


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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #835467 - 08/22/02 09:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Phluck writes:

What you obviously have failed to grasp is that food and shelter are more important for the individual, while vaccinations are important for society as a whole.

What is society but many individuals? When an epidemic hits, who is it that gets sick? "Society"? Nope. INDIVIDUALS sicken and die. Society marches on.

Please point out to me any individual in any society who feels a vaccination is a higher priority than daily food and shelter. If no one in a given society has food and shelter, mortality rate is one hundred per cent. If no one in a given society gets a polio vaccination, mortality rate is what, maybe three per cent?

If you can give out free vaccinations to everyone, you can do to other diseases what we've done to smallpox... eliminate it.

I'm trying really hard to maintain my patience here, but damn! Doesn't anyone actually READ THE FREAKING POSTS before whipping off a knee-jerk Pavlovian response? This is what I have said in two separate posts in this very thread:

That is not the same thing at all as carte blanche complete medical care for everything from bunions to the common cold -- it (referring to mass vaccination programs in grade schools) may be properly classified as an emergency situation.

and

I was merely pointing out that even if the government DOES provide free vaccinations for life-threatening infectious diseases that present a clear and present danger to the populace as a whole (polio, smallpox, tuberculosis, etc.) it is not even close to being the same thing as providing free blanket medical care for everything from bunions to bursitis. The threat of an epidemic can properly be considered a national emergency.

Note the fundamental concept at work here -- NATIONAL EMERGENCY. There are things that are correct for a government to do in the case of a national emergency (invasion by a foreign power, as one example) that may not be done by government in normal times. It can reasonably be argued that the threat of a widespread epidemic of a fatal contagious disease qualifies as a national emergency.

Even then, however, this does not NECESSARILY mean that the government must provide FREE vaccinations for EVERYONE, it just means that I personally don't have a big problem with them doing so. I can, however, think of several ways in which the vaccinations could be funded by private charitable organizations. There are plenty of them already funding school lunches and milk programs for indigent children, so I doubt they would have a big objection to paying for a vaccination or two, particularly if they agree with your contention that food and shelter are less important than vaccinations.

But both you and Rono are doing nothing more than splitting hairs on this "grade school vaccination program" question. You are both dodging the REAL issue being discussed -- universal access cradle-to-grave single-tier "free" health care. I repeat for the THIRD time that there is an ENORMOUS difference between an emergency vaccination program and a lifetime of free treatment for everything from dermatitis to diverticulosis. Anyone who pretends to equate the two is being deliberately obtuse.

pinky


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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #835532 - 08/22/02 10:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

Don't even try to tell me that the U.S. (or any other country) deosn't have assinine laws like that..it happens...If you like I can post alot of stupid laws in U.S. cities that are far more laughable than limiting dogs and cats.

...you think it's a Canadian trait?...I think it's a political trait..regardless of the country.


Of course politicians pass stupid laws in every country, but that was not my point in posting this incident. I was very careful to emphasize that what I found instructive was not the law itself, but the public's reaction (more accurately, NON-reaction) to the passing of the law:

To me, what was even more astonishing than the thought of well-paid politicians wasting their time on this "problem" was the fact that neither of the two city newspapers found anything odd about the whole farce. It was reported as straight news. No letters to the editor were sent (or at least none were published) pointing out the absurdity of the situation, no politicians stood up and protested this egregious waste of time and taxpayer's money. It was just universally accepted that, "Yes, this is a problem. We must pass a law so it won't happen again."

This attitude is just so typically CANADIAN.


So yes, I DO think it's a Canadian trait to rely on the power of government legislation to cure every perceived little ill in soviety, just as you see it is an American trait to sue everybody every time something goes wrong. I quote your earlier post:

Since Americans basic needs aren't provided for, they feel the need to sue anyone that hurts their feelings....

The attitudes of both groups are, of course, incorrect. However, my contention, BACKED UP WITH LOGICAL ARGUMENTS, is that of the two admittedly less-than-ideal solutions, frivolous lawsuits are demonstrably preferable to frivolous legislation.

pinky


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Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #836035 - 08/22/02 02:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I love you, Baby Hitler.


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Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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