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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832357 - 08/21/02 09:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Actually, I don't believe that even vaccinations should be free.


So someone that can't afford food or shelter will somehow have the money for vaccinations?
In reply to:

And universal free medical care is incentive to live a healthy lifestyle? "Why stop smoking? The government will buy me a new set of lungs."


You're going to extremes again...The incentive to live a healthy lifestyle is self evident...HEALTH...do you think that people enjoy being sick?
In reply to:

Re-read my post. If the lawsuits are frivolous, legislation is not needed. If they aren't frivolous, legislation may be needed


I understand exactly what you are trying to say, and even agree with it to an extent...all I'm asking is how is it any different than when the Canadiain governent (for example) sees a problem and corrects it BEFORE it can be made into a frivolous law suit...we obviously have law suits as well, there is a need for them sometimes. But when the court system is getting clogged up by greedy retards then it becomes an issue.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/02 09:29 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: The administration [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #832380 - 08/21/02 09:35 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

SoFarNorth writes:

Here is where there might finally be some changes, the people have seen the lack of good governance...

So, problem soon to be resolved.

what do you do when one branch of the gov't, through passive resistance, fails to do what another branch orders them to do? Who enforces it?

Only one answer, I guess. Vote them out of office at the earliest opportunity.

The GOP holds 90% of the state elected offices and set the rules for debate on the house floor.

Ah, I see. So according to the constitution of the state of Idaho, the majority party gets to decide the rules of debate; they are not cast in stone.

Short of a constitutional amendment, then, it looks like nothing can be done by the opposition except to continue to vote their conscience and rip a strip off the majority in the free press, hoping that next election THEY will win enough seats to set the rules of debate.

I might buy this, except that the starting wage for county sheriff's here is roughly $24k/year.

I don't understand. I thought your beef was not with the law enforcement angle, but with a "lack of funds to do anything to help in either prevention or treatment." How will increasing the base salary of law enforcement officers free up funds for treatment?

Idaho cut numerous programs, including food stamp type programs, child health insurance (policy issuer of last resort for indigent families), child dental and medical programs.

I presume if most voters in Idaho agreed that welfare was a good thing, they would have elected representatives to the state legislature who support welfare programs. Problem should be solved next election.

pinky



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832417 - 08/21/02 09:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

As a matter of fact, the insurance industry has a higher profit margin than almost any other. That's because, on average, they receive more money in premiums than they pay out in claims.




Actually, I'd vote for someone who wanted to buy out all the insurance companies and institute a federal non-profit insuring agency.

That would be just fine with me.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #832478 - 08/21/02 10:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

So someone that can't afford food or shelter will somehow have the money for vaccinations?

A polio injection costs a few bucks. And no, someone who can afford neither food nor shelter will likely not spend the little money he has on a vaccination, he'll buy a package of hot dogs or a warm coat, because he knows he'll die a lot faster from starvation or exposure than he will from polio. A corpse doesn't contract a contagious disease.

THAT'S MY POINT, if you still haven't grasped it. Food and shelter are obviously MORE IMPORTANT than vaccinations. Why then should the government provide free vaccinations but not free food? It's not logical.

The incentive to live a healthy lifestyle is self evident...HEALTH...do you think that people enjoy being sick?

Apparently some do. There's certainly no shortage of overweight, artery-clogged smokers in Canada.

...all I'm asking is how is it any different than when the Canadiain governent (for example) sees a problem and corrects it BEFORE it can be made into a frivolous law suit...

Because the Canadian method of government is to treat EVERY damn little inconvenience or bizarre one-off occurrence that MIGHT just happen again, sometime, somewhere, as a problem that CAN ONLY be cured with new legislation and MORE new legislation. "When your only tool is a hammer, you see life as a forest of nails."

Here's an example of something as stupid as any civil lawsuit. In the capital city of Canada, it is against the law to have more than four dogs or four cats in a residential home. Why is that, you ask?

This came about because some batty old woman had a soft spot in her heart for stray cats, and ended up looking after thirty-odd abandoned kitties. The neighbors were incensed because the cats dug up gardens, caught birds, howled at night when in heat, etc.

Did the authorities resolve this issue by telling the woman she must keep her cats indoors, neuter them, or whatever? Nope. Did they make her pay for the damage done to the gardens of the neighbors, as provided for by existing nuisance legislation? Nope. They passed a law limiting the number of pets ANYONE may own.

So now, if you live in Ottawa and your dog gives birth to more than three puppies in a litter, you are automatically breaking the law.

I followed this whole process on one of my vacations to Ottawa to visit my parents. To me, what was even more astonishing than the thought of well-paid politicians wasting their time on this "problem" was the fact that neither of the two city newspapers found anything odd about the whole farce. It was reported as straight news. No letters to the editor were sent (or at least none were published) pointing out the absurdity of the situation, no politicians stood up and protested this egregious waste of time and taxpayer's money. It was just universally accepted that, "Yes, this is a problem. We must pass a law so it won't happen again."

This attitude is just so typically CANADIAN. That's why I said in a previous post that it's a cultural trait. This of course was not federal legislation, it was a municipal law. It illustrates with crystalline clarity that it's not just the federal politicians who possess this mindset of government as the answer to all the woes of the world; it's Canadians as a whole.

It's a prime example of something that could have (and should have) been dealt with in small claims court, using existing legislation to resolve the issue. But oh, no! This is CANADA! It makes much more sense to make every owner of a pregnant dog a criminal.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #832480 - 08/21/02 10:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, I'd vote for someone who wanted to buy out all the insurance companies and institute a federal non-profit insuring agency.
That's right, run 'em with the efficiency of the post office and accounting practices more dishonest than Enron's.

Bad idea.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #832502 - 08/21/02 10:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

There's certainly no shortage of overweight, artery-clogged smokers in Canada


Bad example...I think you'll notice, there is no shortage of those people in ANY first world country...in fact the U.S. has more than any country in the world.
In reply to:

In the capital city of Canada, it is against the law to have more than four dogs or four cats in a residential home


Don't even try to tell me that the U.S. (or any other country) deosn't have assinine laws like that..it happens...If you like I can post alot of stupid laws in U.S. cities that are far more laughable than limiting dogs and cats.
In reply to:

This attitude is just so typically CANADIAN. That's why I said in a previous post that it's a cultural trait. This of course was not federal legislation, it was a municipal law. It illustrates with crystalline clarity that it's not just the federal politicians who possess this mindset of government as the answer to all the woes of the world; it's Canadians as a whole.


See above...you think it's a Canadian trait?...I think it's a political trait..regardless of the country.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/02 10:35 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #833110 - 08/21/02 12:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I find the chart easy to understand in terms of the flow of carbon dioxide. I'll confess that other than being some form of measure, I haven't a clue what a GtC is.

I would find it hard to believe that you really can't grasp what that chart means. Unless perhaps it's because it doesn't mesh with what it appears you would like to believe.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: ]
    #833261 - 08/21/02 01:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I dare you to try to talk the guy at the UPS office to deliver a single letter to an address accross the country for under a dollar.

Surely you can find a better example than the Post Office.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #833264 - 08/21/02 01:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No Shit!

I can't even drive barefooted, or bathe with my horse anymore.


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Anonymous

Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #833323 - 08/21/02 02:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I dare you to try to talk the guy at the UPS office to deliver a single letter to an address accross the country for under a dollar.
The government will not allow competition in this area, many years ago Lysander Spooner started a private postal service but the feds put him out of business. Additionally, the Postal Service keeps getting bailed out and subsidized by the tax payers because they are an inefficient government run enterprise - the fees you pay are subsidized and do not reflect the actual cost.

Surely you can find a better example than the Post Office.
Social Security, if this were run by the private sector the same way it is run by the government the operators of this ponzi scheme would be jailed for fraud and misappropriation of funds.

The Forest Service, look at the recent wildfires which consumed record numbers of acres and destroyed people's homes. I don't know what the exact figures are, but the last time I read about it, for every 1 dollar that the forest service was receiving for lumber harvested from government owned lands, it was costing the taxpayer 3 dollars in operational expenses. No privately owned timberlands are operated this way, if they are, the owners quickly go bankrupt and their assests are sold.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The administration [Re: ]
    #833359 - 08/21/02 02:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What is your source for this information?


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Anonymous

Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #835233 - 08/22/02 07:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I was citing things from memory, but I did some searches and came up with a few links regarding the various subjects....

The Postal Monopoly

Social Security:
quick facts
or
or
or
or
From Social Security Administration's own websight...

National Fire Plan
Logging Data (sorry it's not more current)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The administration [Re: Phred]
    #835273 - 08/22/02 07:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"THAT'S MY POINT, if you still haven't grasped it. Food and shelter are obviously MORE IMPORTANT than vaccinations. Why then should the government provide free vaccinations but not free food? It's not logical."

What you obviously have failed to grasp is that food and shelter are more important for the individual, while vaccinations are important for society as a whole. If you can give out free vaccinations to everyone, you can do to other diseases what we've done to smallpox... eliminate it. Otherwise you end up with an upper class that is immune to many major diseases, and a lower class that is ravaged by infections.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Phluck]
    #835467 - 08/22/02 09:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Phluck writes:

What you obviously have failed to grasp is that food and shelter are more important for the individual, while vaccinations are important for society as a whole.

What is society but many individuals? When an epidemic hits, who is it that gets sick? "Society"? Nope. INDIVIDUALS sicken and die. Society marches on.

Please point out to me any individual in any society who feels a vaccination is a higher priority than daily food and shelter. If no one in a given society has food and shelter, mortality rate is one hundred per cent. If no one in a given society gets a polio vaccination, mortality rate is what, maybe three per cent?

If you can give out free vaccinations to everyone, you can do to other diseases what we've done to smallpox... eliminate it.

I'm trying really hard to maintain my patience here, but damn! Doesn't anyone actually READ THE FREAKING POSTS before whipping off a knee-jerk Pavlovian response? This is what I have said in two separate posts in this very thread:

That is not the same thing at all as carte blanche complete medical care for everything from bunions to the common cold -- it (referring to mass vaccination programs in grade schools) may be properly classified as an emergency situation.

and

I was merely pointing out that even if the government DOES provide free vaccinations for life-threatening infectious diseases that present a clear and present danger to the populace as a whole (polio, smallpox, tuberculosis, etc.) it is not even close to being the same thing as providing free blanket medical care for everything from bunions to bursitis. The threat of an epidemic can properly be considered a national emergency.

Note the fundamental concept at work here -- NATIONAL EMERGENCY. There are things that are correct for a government to do in the case of a national emergency (invasion by a foreign power, as one example) that may not be done by government in normal times. It can reasonably be argued that the threat of a widespread epidemic of a fatal contagious disease qualifies as a national emergency.

Even then, however, this does not NECESSARILY mean that the government must provide FREE vaccinations for EVERYONE, it just means that I personally don't have a big problem with them doing so. I can, however, think of several ways in which the vaccinations could be funded by private charitable organizations. There are plenty of them already funding school lunches and milk programs for indigent children, so I doubt they would have a big objection to paying for a vaccination or two, particularly if they agree with your contention that food and shelter are less important than vaccinations.

But both you and Rono are doing nothing more than splitting hairs on this "grade school vaccination program" question. You are both dodging the REAL issue being discussed -- universal access cradle-to-grave single-tier "free" health care. I repeat for the THIRD time that there is an ENORMOUS difference between an emergency vaccination program and a lifetime of free treatment for everything from dermatitis to diverticulosis. Anyone who pretends to equate the two is being deliberately obtuse.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The administration [Re: Rono]
    #835532 - 08/22/02 10:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

Don't even try to tell me that the U.S. (or any other country) deosn't have assinine laws like that..it happens...If you like I can post alot of stupid laws in U.S. cities that are far more laughable than limiting dogs and cats.

...you think it's a Canadian trait?...I think it's a political trait..regardless of the country.


Of course politicians pass stupid laws in every country, but that was not my point in posting this incident. I was very careful to emphasize that what I found instructive was not the law itself, but the public's reaction (more accurately, NON-reaction) to the passing of the law:

To me, what was even more astonishing than the thought of well-paid politicians wasting their time on this "problem" was the fact that neither of the two city newspapers found anything odd about the whole farce. It was reported as straight news. No letters to the editor were sent (or at least none were published) pointing out the absurdity of the situation, no politicians stood up and protested this egregious waste of time and taxpayer's money. It was just universally accepted that, "Yes, this is a problem. We must pass a law so it won't happen again."

This attitude is just so typically CANADIAN.


So yes, I DO think it's a Canadian trait to rely on the power of government legislation to cure every perceived little ill in soviety, just as you see it is an American trait to sue everybody every time something goes wrong. I quote your earlier post:

Since Americans basic needs aren't provided for, they feel the need to sue anyone that hurts their feelings....

The attitudes of both groups are, of course, incorrect. However, my contention, BACKED UP WITH LOGICAL ARGUMENTS, is that of the two admittedly less-than-ideal solutions, frivolous lawsuits are demonstrably preferable to frivolous legislation.

pinky


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Invisibletoxick
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Registered: 12/11/00
Posts: 128
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Re: The administration [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #836035 - 08/22/02 02:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I love you, Baby Hitler.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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