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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226015 -

sounds like your an anarchist or libertarian

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html


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for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226025 -

Quote:
aDoS said:Who wants to give the government more control? fuck that...

yep, fuck that


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8226030 -

yea...I guess thats what I am. I scored Libertarian.


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"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226041 -

Congratulation, you just discovered youre a right winger.


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8226055 -

I always thought a right winger was a conservative?

or can a libertarian be defined as a right winger as well?


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"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

Edited by aDoS (04/01/08 08:19 PM)

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226056 -

aDoS said:
Well...for a while I thought I was more liberal because I believe in individual rights and I kind of want the government to just fuck off. I started reading more...and maybe I am just stupid, but what I got from it is...liberalism is socialism/communism. They want universal health care, social living, etc. So I am kind of confused now, I am not really sure what a liberal is now. If socialism is liberalism, than fuck liberalism. Who wants to give the government more control? fuck that...


You're confused because Americans do not use terms correctly. In the United States, people that advocated a mixed-economy, progressivism, government subsidies, labor unions, etc are labeled by the media as "liberal."

The term liberal actually implies the opposite of this. Liberals support laissez-faire style capitalism and are opposed to government intervention in the economy. If you read any Marxist literature, they will commonly use "liberal" as a very negative term.

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8226075 -

ah I see. Classic liberalism and modern liberalism...I don't get why it changed heh. Is that why the Republican party use to be considered a liberal party and the Democratic party was conservative?


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226118 -

Words change and definitions evolve over time. For example dictator was a good thing way back in the past. There is not much to be gained by sticking to definitions used hundreds of years ago and trying to apply them to current debate and discussion. The modern definition of liberal has little to do with the liberalism of the renaissance. Nearly all americans and westerners adhere to the classical liberalism born from the renaissance.

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8226393 -

MushmanTheManic said:
aDoS said:
Well...for a while I thought I was more liberal because I believe in individual rights and I kind of want the government to just fuck off. I started reading more...and maybe I am just stupid, but what I got from it is...liberalism is socialism/communism. They want universal health care, social living, etc. So I am kind of confused now, I am not really sure what a liberal is now. If socialism is liberalism, than fuck liberalism. Who wants to give the government more control? fuck that...


You're confused because Americans do not use terms correctly. In the United States, people that advocated a mixed-economy, progressivism, government subsidies, labor unions, etc are labeled by the media as "liberal."

The term liberal actually implies the opposite of this. Liberals support laissez-faire style capitalism and are opposed to government intervention in the economy. If you read any Marxist literature, they will commonly use "liberal" as a very negative term.


You're just arguing semantics. By modern liberal he means your standard 2008 left-leaning democratically inclined person. I've taken high school US history as well, I know these words have different meanings.

In todays world, progressivism, unions, and government subsidies are indeed liberal qualities. If everybody in the world uses a word a certain way, that's what the word means, regardless of how Karl Marx or other old dudes used it.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8227477 -

aDoS said:
I always thought a right winger was a conservative?

or can a libertarian be defined as a right winger as well?


yes libertarian can be described as right.  right libertarianism mostly emphasizes conservative (in the old sense of the word) economics, seperation of church and state, and property ownership.  as opposed to left which denies intellectual property, does not like war, and supports voluntary mutualism. 

either way, your pro liberty and anti government :thumbup:

someone like barry goldwater and ron paul would be considered a right libertarian, if your familiar with either


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227519 -

anyone420 said:
modern liberals want government to enforce their moral beliefs through coercion and violence

traditionally they emphasized individual freedom and liberty, but thats down the fuckin toilet as far as i'm concerned

the bipartisan system is just disgusting, republicans and liberals only differ in who they want to punish and what they want to change, the violent means are still inherent to both


This is silly. A "liberal thinker" is one that examines several perspectives and, after deliberation, chooses the best course for all of his or her fellow citizens. That's assuming said "liberal thinker" is an elected official.

Yes, the term, "liberal" is getting unpopular, so now one might choose the definition as, "progressive".

Personally, I like the second label better, as it envokes a striving toward a better system of government.

Strict "liberalism" is only an opneness to dialogue and hearing various points of view. "Conservatism" is staying with what you grew up with. I don't understand why someone would call themself a "conservative" other than through ignorance or for political gain.

It is clear the US is fucking up on an grand scale here. You get your job and severance ripped out from under you in Ohio, and you still vote Republican--that's stupid.


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Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: GnuBobo]
    #8227525 -

a better system of government is no government at all.

thats where you are confused.

government by its nature operates on the threat of violence.

don't want to fund a government program? well first they will try to fine you, if you don't pay the fine they will try to jail you, if you don't want to go to jail they will shoot you.

liberals, as you said, choose what is best for other people
 and this is just wrong


you pretty much backed up what i said about liberals, except that you justified it as progression when it is clearly more intrusive government, more regulation, more taxation, and more oppression.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

Edited by anyone420 (04/02/08 05:24 AM)

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227532 -

anyone420 said:
a better system of government is no government at all.

thats where you are confused.

government by its nature operates on the threat of violence.

don't want to fund a government program? well first they will try to fine you, if you don't pay the fine they will try to jail you, if you don't want to go to jail they will shoot you.

liberals, as you said, choose what is best for other people
 and this is just wrong


So, you've just spelled out a "Lord of the Flies" governmental philosophy. That makes sense.

you pretty much backed up what i said about liberals, except that you justified it as progression when it is clearly more intrusive government, more regulation, more taxation, and more oppression.



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Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227551 -

anyone420 said:
a better system of government is no government at all.

thats where you are confused.

government by its nature operates on the threat of violence.

don't want to fund a government program? well first they will try to fine you, if you don't pay the fine they will try to jail you, if you don't want to go to jail they will shoot you.

liberals, as you said, choose what is best for other people
 and this is just wrong


you pretty much backed up what i said about liberals, except that you justified it as progression when it is clearly more intrusive government, more regulation, more taxation, and more oppression.


Government is, at its core, a trade off of personal liberties in exchange for added security. In our world, saying it is unnecessary is fucking stupid. Maybe if the enitre human race operated under a different "system" (I'm using the word like Terence McKenna would) then we could do without government, but in today's world sorry to say we do need a central administrative body.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: g00ru]
    #8227560 -

The way Americans use the word liberal is different from the rest of the world.

Classic definitions of liberalism still apply, if you want to use the word in the "modern" sense, you should capitalize Liberal. That's how we deal with it in class.

And hey, consider the usage of liberal by Samuel Huntington and Kant, they argue that the western world is now a big liberal cultural bloc.


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: rexmundi]
    #8227581 -

Oh, and get this, Neo-conservative and Neo-Liberal actually mean the same thing. Cool huh?


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Ferris]
    #8227596 -


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: g00ru]
    #8227758 -

guruu said:
Government is, at its core, a trade off of personal liberties in exchange for added security. In our world, saying it is unnecessary is fucking stupid. Maybe if the enitre human race operated under a different "system" (I'm using the word like Terence McKenna would) then we could do without government, but in today's world sorry to say we do need a central administrative body.


I think your wrong. I do not need, nor want any government services. I do not want their protection.

Do you really thing the government can protect you from anything? This is a fairy tale.


Wake up man, they are simply there to steal your money and control your life. You need protection from them, not by them.

To paraphrase ben franklin, those who are willing to give up their essential liberties for a sense of safety deserve and will get neither. This is the truth


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227879 -

anyone420 said:
I think your wrong. I do not need, nor want any government services. I do not want their protection.



You don't want roads or schools or libraries or energy for your home or laws that ensure that other people can't cheat you out of money or steal from you or infect you with disease or murder you?

Ok, well I guess you could disappear and live in a cave somewhere and not be a member of a society that relies on government.

Except your best bet for living in a cave would be to go to a state or national park, because these are the only places not open to private development so you'd still be sucking on the govment's teet. Plus the fact that without the government some corporation could probably save millions by dumping unregulated radioactive waste into your cave.

And say you lived with a bunch of other cave dwellers. I am pretty sure that if one of them started hoarding all of the food you would find some way or another of preventing them from doing so, whether it was pre-emptive or disciplinary. And you would probably at some point realize that you could all have more food if you pooled your resources, hunted as a group, and shared the product of the hunt more or less collectively. Boom, all of a sudden you have a collectivist society, a small scale form of government.

I don't know. It just seems like an intellectual cop-out to totally reject a government that you are still dependent upon, because its easier to reject a complicated system outright than admitting that said system, although corrupt, has clear cut benefits for you and that if you were more hard working and active you could actually affect change at least on a small level.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227881 -

Too bad you can't really "opt out" anymore...


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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