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InvisibleFerris
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What defines the modern liberal?
    #8223425 - 04/01/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What unifies us/them? What causes schisms?

Discuss.


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Discuss Politics

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Ferris]
    #8223433 - 04/01/08 08:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hatred of whitey?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8223435 - 04/01/08 08:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Beep, wrong answer.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8223454 - 04/01/08 08:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

modern liberals want government to enforce their moral beliefs through coercion and violence

traditionally they emphasized individual freedom and liberty, but thats down the fuckin toilet as far as i'm concerned

the bipartisan system is just disgusting, republicans and liberals only differ in who they want to punish and what they want to change, the violent means are still inherent to both


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

Edited by anyone420 (04/01/08 08:53 AM)

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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8223719 - 04/01/08 10:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Individualist politics, emphasis on rights is what I would go with. That's a classroom type definition.


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Ferris]
    #8223798 - 04/01/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The refusal to accept anything as "right" or "correct" or "moral" or "better". To a modern Liberal, any culture is as good as any other, any behavior is as good as any other, and the only "wrong" or "incorrect" or "immoral" action one can take is to insist that there is a "better" way, because such insistence by you shows that you discriminate, and discrimination is bad, yo.



Phred


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Phred]
    #8224234 - 04/01/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Isn't a modern liberal like a wolf in a sheeps clothing..

Fascism in tie-dye to quote Prisoner#1.


--------------------
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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Phred]
    #8224272 - 04/01/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The refusal to accept anything as "right" or "correct" or "moral" or "better". To a modern Liberal, any culture is as good as any other, any behavior is as good as any other, and the only "wrong" or "incorrect" or "immoral" action one can take is to insist that there is a "better" way, because such insistence by you shows that you discriminate, and discrimination is bad, yo.




This has absolutely nothing to do with liberalism.

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8224295 - 04/01/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds like a key component of liberalism to me. Cultural and moral relativism is a mainstay of modern american liberal ideology. (that and hating whitey, and hating successful businesses)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8224321 - 04/01/08 01:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Throughout history, most liberals have been moralists and they still are. If you think that relativism and "hating successful business" is a mainstay of liberalism, then I don't think you know what liberalism is.

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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8224506 - 04/01/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:congrats:


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: rexmundi]
    #8224543 - 04/01/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A modern liberal is a prisoner who has bought into the mainstream media's doublethink.


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Offlineanyone420
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Minstrel]
    #8224549 - 04/01/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well said


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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OfflinelsdPSYCHosis
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8225571 - 04/01/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

WHAT IS liberalism?

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8225596 - 04/01/08 06:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Throughout history, most liberals have been moralists and they still are. If you think that relativism and "hating successful business" is a mainstay of liberalism, then I don't think you know what liberalism is.




He said MODERN liberalism and that is certainly an aspect of modern liberals social outlook, although not all of it. The term "liberal" is so vague that to compare it historically is almost useless in this discussion.

I'd say most modern liberals today cast their votes for the benefit of society, where as conservatives cast their votes for themselves.


--------------------
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OfflinePhred
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8225921 - 04/01/08 07:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

MushmanTheManic writes:

Quote:

This has absolutely nothing to do with liberalism.




You are correct that this attitude had little to do with the liberalism of Harry Truman and John F Kennedy. However, that wasn't the question asked.

To remind yourself what that question was, re-read the thread title, paying particular attention to the adjective.



Phred


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Phred]
    #8225964 - 04/01/08 07:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Modern liberalism = Milton Friedman, John Kenneth Galbraith, etc.

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Offlinemisterdogman
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Phred]
    #8225980 - 04/01/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A modern liberal wants to increase taxes to pay for everything for you. Basically a Modern Conservative wants you to invest your $, save it, and pay for your own shit you need material medical or other.

A modern Liberal wants you to work hard pay more taxes give the Government all your $ so they can pay for Healthcare, food and all other citizen needed welfare. Then when you retire youll be broke and use all your $ for left over taxes and food.


--------------------
While driving my overpowered car around tight corners like a maniac all my friends yell out. Hey man slow down, we might Wreck. I reply, Shut up, I drive like Dale Earnhardt. They all look around at each other and laugh. Then one asks me. Hey wait, isnt he dead? Well yeah he is I said. Then I drive like Junior I mumble, while I promptly slow down.
"Everyday is opposite day. Everything I say is opposite of what you think I am saying. So if I say something and you think I mean one thing it is the opposite of what I am really trying to say. I actually mean another thing other than what you are thinking I am saying. Get it? Good because that's what I meant".
"You may defeat me, you may even destroy me, But you will never CONQUER me"!

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InvisibleaDoS
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Ferris]
    #8225999 - 04/01/08 08:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well...for a while I thought I was more liberal because I believe in individual rights and I kind of want the government to just fuck off. I started reading more...and maybe I am just stupid, but what I got from it is...liberalism is socialism/communism. They want universal health care, social living, etc. So I am kind of confused now, I am not really sure what a liberal is now. If socialism is liberalism, than fuck liberalism. Who wants to give the government more control? fuck that...


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

Edited by aDoS (04/01/08 08:06 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: misterdogman]
    #8226011 - 04/01/08 08:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That sounds more like Keynesianism or outright socialism than liberalism.

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226015 - 04/01/08 08:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

sounds like your an anarchist or libertarian

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226025 - 04/01/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

aDoS said:Who wants to give the government more control? fuck that...


yep, fuck that


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InvisibleaDoS
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8226030 - 04/01/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yea...I guess thats what I am. I scored Libertarian.


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226041 - 04/01/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Congratulation, you just discovered youre a right winger.


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InvisibleaDoS
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8226055 - 04/01/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I always thought a right winger was a conservative?

or can a libertarian be defined as a right winger as well?


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

Edited by aDoS (04/01/08 08:19 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226056 - 04/01/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

aDoS said:
Well...for a while I thought I was more liberal because I believe in individual rights and I kind of want the government to just fuck off. I started reading more...and maybe I am just stupid, but what I got from it is...liberalism is socialism/communism. They want universal health care, social living, etc. So I am kind of confused now, I am not really sure what a liberal is now. If socialism is liberalism, than fuck liberalism. Who wants to give the government more control? fuck that...




You're confused because Americans do not use terms correctly. In the United States, people that advocated a mixed-economy, progressivism, government subsidies, labor unions, etc are labeled by the media as "liberal."

The term liberal actually implies the opposite of this. Liberals support laissez-faire style capitalism and are opposed to government intervention in the economy. If you read any Marxist literature, they will commonly use "liberal" as a very negative term.

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InvisibleaDoS
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8226075 - 04/01/08 08:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ah I see. Classic liberalism and modern liberalism...I don't get why it changed heh. Is that why the Republican party use to be considered a liberal party and the Democratic party was conservative?


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8226118 - 04/01/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Words change and definitions evolve over time. For example dictator was a good thing way back in the past. There is not much to be gained by sticking to definitions used hundreds of years ago and trying to apply them to current debate and discussion. The modern definition of liberal has little to do with the liberalism of the renaissance. Nearly all americans and westerners adhere to the classical liberalism born from the renaissance.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8226393 - 04/01/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

aDoS said:
Well...for a while I thought I was more liberal because I believe in individual rights and I kind of want the government to just fuck off. I started reading more...and maybe I am just stupid, but what I got from it is...liberalism is socialism/communism. They want universal health care, social living, etc. So I am kind of confused now, I am not really sure what a liberal is now. If socialism is liberalism, than fuck liberalism. Who wants to give the government more control? fuck that...




You're confused because Americans do not use terms correctly. In the United States, people that advocated a mixed-economy, progressivism, government subsidies, labor unions, etc are labeled by the media as "liberal."

The term liberal actually implies the opposite of this. Liberals support laissez-faire style capitalism and are opposed to government intervention in the economy. If you read any Marxist literature, they will commonly use "liberal" as a very negative term.




You're just arguing semantics. By modern liberal he means your standard 2008 left-leaning democratically inclined person. I've taken high school US history as well, I know these words have different meanings.

In todays world, progressivism, unions, and government subsidies are indeed liberal qualities. If everybody in the world uses a word a certain way, that's what the word means, regardless of how Karl Marx or other old dudes used it.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: aDoS]
    #8227477 - 04/02/08 04:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

aDoS said:
I always thought a right winger was a conservative?

or can a libertarian be defined as a right winger as well?




yes libertarian can be described as right.  right libertarianism mostly emphasizes conservative (in the old sense of the word) economics, seperation of church and state, and property ownership.  as opposed to left which denies intellectual property, does not like war, and supports voluntary mutualism. 

either way, your pro liberty and anti government :thumbup:

someone like barry goldwater and ron paul would be considered a right libertarian, if your familiar with either


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227519 - 04/02/08 05:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
modern liberals want government to enforce their moral beliefs through coercion and violence

traditionally they emphasized individual freedom and liberty, but thats down the fuckin toilet as far as i'm concerned

the bipartisan system is just disgusting, republicans and liberals only differ in who they want to punish and what they want to change, the violent means are still inherent to both




This is silly. A "liberal thinker" is one that examines several perspectives and, after deliberation, chooses the best course for all of his or her fellow citizens. That's assuming said "liberal thinker" is an elected official.

Yes, the term, "liberal" is getting unpopular, so now one might choose the definition as, "progressive".

Personally, I like the second label better, as it envokes a striving toward a better system of government.

Strict "liberalism" is only an opneness to dialogue and hearing various points of view. "Conservatism" is staying with what you grew up with. I don't understand why someone would call themself a "conservative" other than through ignorance or for political gain.

It is clear the US is fucking up on an grand scale here. You get your job and severance ripped out from under you in Ohio, and you still vote Republican--that's stupid.


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Offlineanyone420
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: GnuBobo]
    #8227525 - 04/02/08 05:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

a better system of government is no government at all.

thats where you are confused.

government by its nature operates on the threat of violence.

don't want to fund a government program? well first they will try to fine you, if you don't pay the fine they will try to jail you, if you don't want to go to jail they will shoot you.

liberals, as you said, choose what is best for other people
and this is just wrong


you pretty much backed up what i said about liberals, except that you justified it as progression when it is clearly more intrusive government, more regulation, more taxation, and more oppression.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

Edited by anyone420 (04/02/08 05:24 AM)

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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227532 - 04/02/08 05:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
a better system of government is no government at all.

thats where you are confused.

government by its nature operates on the threat of violence.

don't want to fund a government program? well first they will try to fine you, if you don't pay the fine they will try to jail you, if you don't want to go to jail they will shoot you.

liberals, as you said, choose what is best for other people
and this is just wrong


So, you've just spelled out a "Lord of the Flies" governmental philosophy. That makes sense.

you pretty much backed up what i said about liberals, except that you justified it as progression when it is clearly more intrusive government, more regulation, more taxation, and more oppression.




--------------------
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Offlineg00ru
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227551 - 04/02/08 05:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
a better system of government is no government at all.

thats where you are confused.

government by its nature operates on the threat of violence.

don't want to fund a government program? well first they will try to fine you, if you don't pay the fine they will try to jail you, if you don't want to go to jail they will shoot you.

liberals, as you said, choose what is best for other people
and this is just wrong


you pretty much backed up what i said about liberals, except that you justified it as progression when it is clearly more intrusive government, more regulation, more taxation, and more oppression.




Government is, at its core, a trade off of personal liberties in exchange for added security. In our world, saying it is unnecessary is fucking stupid. Maybe if the enitre human race operated under a different "system" (I'm using the word like Terence McKenna would) then we could do without government, but in today's world sorry to say we do need a central administrative body.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: g00ru]
    #8227560 - 04/02/08 05:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The way Americans use the word liberal is different from the rest of the world.

Classic definitions of liberalism still apply, if you want to use the word in the "modern" sense, you should capitalize Liberal. That's how we deal with it in class.

And hey, consider the usage of liberal by Samuel Huntington and Kant, they argue that the western world is now a big liberal cultural bloc.


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: rexmundi]
    #8227581 - 04/02/08 06:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, and get this, Neo-conservative and Neo-Liberal actually mean the same thing. Cool huh?


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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Offlinehazey
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Ferris]
    #8227596 - 04/02/08 06:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)


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Offlineanyone420
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: g00ru]
    #8227758 - 04/02/08 08:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Government is, at its core, a trade off of personal liberties in exchange for added security. In our world, saying it is unnecessary is fucking stupid. Maybe if the enitre human race operated under a different "system" (I'm using the word like Terence McKenna would) then we could do without government, but in today's world sorry to say we do need a central administrative body.




I think your wrong. I do not need, nor want any government services. I do not want their protection.

Do you really thing the government can protect you from anything? This is a fairy tale.


Wake up man, they are simply there to steal your money and control your life. You need protection from them, not by them.

To paraphrase ben franklin, those who are willing to give up their essential liberties for a sense of safety deserve and will get neither. This is the truth


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227879 - 04/02/08 09:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
I think your wrong. I do not need, nor want any government services. I do not want their protection.





You don't want roads or schools or libraries or energy for your home or laws that ensure that other people can't cheat you out of money or steal from you or infect you with disease or murder you?

Ok, well I guess you could disappear and live in a cave somewhere and not be a member of a society that relies on government.

Except your best bet for living in a cave would be to go to a state or national park, because these are the only places not open to private development so you'd still be sucking on the govment's teet. Plus the fact that without the government some corporation could probably save millions by dumping unregulated radioactive waste into your cave.

And say you lived with a bunch of other cave dwellers. I am pretty sure that if one of them started hoarding all of the food you would find some way or another of preventing them from doing so, whether it was pre-emptive or disciplinary. And you would probably at some point realize that you could all have more food if you pooled your resources, hunted as a group, and shared the product of the hunt more or less collectively. Boom, all of a sudden you have a collectivist society, a small scale form of government.

I don't know. It just seems like an intellectual cop-out to totally reject a government that you are still dependent upon, because its easier to reject a complicated system outright than admitting that said system, although corrupt, has clear cut benefits for you and that if you were more hard working and active you could actually affect change at least on a small level.


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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227881 - 04/02/08 09:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Too bad you can't really "opt out" anymore...


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Ferris]
    #8227925 - 04/02/08 10:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think a modern liberal is someone who realizes that we are existing in a society in which we live in the shadow of immenseley powerful giants of two types: the state and the corporations. While Libertarians and free market capitalists argue that individuals in our society have access to the same resources as everyone else and there is nothing preventing each of us from becoming the next Rupert Murdoch, this is really just not true any more. Wealth and power becomes more and more held in the hands of people who already have most of the wealth and resources. Fledging corporations are bought by existing multi-billion dollar Trans-National Corporations. Wal-Mart has destroyed local business. Competition is a thing of the past. Most of us will work our whole lives for one of these corporations, who do their best to short-change us in terms of our money, health, and security. Inheritance is the number one factor in determining the wealth of individuals.

In the face of this, the liberal must reluctantly appeal to the other evil power, government, in order to police the corporations. Not because the liberal likes giving power to the government, but because the government is the only instituion that has any power to take on a juggernaut like Wal-Mart to create a law that says they have to let their employees take a lunch break during an eight hour shift. To limit the power of the corporation to cheat, lie, pollute, and make our lives worse.

I think the best liberals go beyond just having the government try and fix all their problems and have embraced the idea of local collectivism. They support local organic agriciulture farms for food supplies. They bike and use public transportation instead of flushing money down the drain by supporting the auto and oil industry, and if they do have a car they use zip cars or share them with multiple other people. They form collectives, they pool resources so they don't have to shop at wal-mart. They live off the grid, installing solar and wind power generators on their houses. They compost their waste.

Collectivist liberals get laughed at a lot, and are labelled as hippies, but when you look at humans over time, they are doing what people have done for a long time and what makes the most sense. Instead of looking out for #1 and humping the fallacy/myth that upward mobility is possible, a myth that keeps all of us down both spiritually and financially, they have decided to simply share what they have where they have it with others in a local fashion. They realize that both government and corporations are massive corrupt systems of exploitation and instead of hurling rocks at them they just trying to disconnect from each as much as possible and create a manage-able localized existence.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8227965 - 04/02/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

anyone420 said:
I think your wrong. I do not need, nor want any government services. I do not want their protection.





You don't want roads or schools or libraries or energy for your home or laws that ensure that other people can't cheat you out of money or steal from you or infect you with disease or murder you?

Ok, well I guess you could disappear and live in a cave somewhere and not be a member of a society that relies on government.

Except your best bet for living in a cave would be to go to a state or national park, because these are the only places not open to private development so you'd still be sucking on the govment's teet. Plus the fact that without the government some corporation could probably save millions by dumping unregulated radioactive waste into your cave.

And say you lived with a bunch of other cave dwellers. I am pretty sure that if one of them started hoarding all of the food you would find some way or another of preventing them from doing so, whether it was pre-emptive or disciplinary. And you would probably at some point realize that you could all have more food if you pooled your resources, hunted as a group, and shared the product of the hunt more or less collectively. Boom, all of a sudden you have a collectivist society, a small scale form of government.

I don't know. It just seems like an intellectual cop-out to totally reject a government that you are still dependent upon, because its easier to reject a complicated system outright than admitting that said system, although corrupt, has clear cut benefits for you and that if you were more hard working and active you could actually affect change at least on a small level.




of course roads and libraries are the first thing anyone mentions as a necessary function of government. those could easily be provided by the market place, in the absence of a government, do a little research on it. as far as people that want to steal from me, i can defend myself, and i dont need the illusion that some police force actually prevents these crimes from happening, because they still do at extremely high rates even within the police state of america.

i reject government because government is force. government operates on the threat of violence, and this is wrong. i support freedom, not serfdom.

saying i should go live in a cage is pretty wack man, were the american revolutionaries that fought for independence a cop out? the spirit of the founding principles of the united states is that each person is entitled to their lives, and anything they see fit for their lives as long as they harm no others. your collectivist mentality is a bit skewed i think.

you act as if everyone would be back in the stone age without government and its just incorrect, the market would still exist, life would go on as usual, we just wouldn't have an overbearing mommy telling us what not to do

and i'm not the only one who thinks like this, look up the free state project


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227974 - 04/02/08 10:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And you say you don't have liberal values?!?:shake:


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: rexmundi]
    #8227982 - 04/02/08 10:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

liberals have values? what are you saying?

or was that not directed at me..


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228024 - 04/02/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Read John Locke's Second Treatise on Government. Liberals hate the government, they value private enterprise and small government and personal freedoms. They were originally against the Monarchists who were the conservatives.

America is founded on Liberal Values, you can see the Lockean influence on the Constitution. Everything you just spouted off are the original liberal values...belief in the free market over government to deliver services, less government coercion etc.

Libertarianism stems from this.


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: rexmundi]
    #8228037 - 04/02/08 10:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

traditional liberals did believe in these things but modern liberalism is nothing remotely similar, it is just moralists seeking to impose their beliefs on others via government

besides, i'm more of an anarcho capitalist than a libertarian, theres distinct differences


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228041 - 04/02/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
of course roads and libraries are the first thing anyone mentions as a necessary function of government. those could easily be provided by the market place, in the absence of a government, do a little research on it.



I am ignorant of the evidence that proves there would still be all the services provided by the government in the absence of the government. Please provide such proof so that I may be enlightened.

Quote:

i reject government because government is force. government operates on the threat of violence, and this is wrong. i support freedom, not serfdom.

saying i should go live in a cage is pretty wack man, were the american revolutionaries that fought for independence a cop out? the spirit of the founding principles of the united states is that each person is entitled to their lives, and anything they see fit for their lives as long as they harm no others. your collectivist mentality is a bit skewed i think.




The revolutionaries fought so they could form their own government, not so that there could be no government. The spirit of this nation is founded upon the notion of liberty protected by a government. If not, why would the founding Fathers draw up constitution and create a government? Not that what the founding fathers intended is necessarily the most important question today, but I don't see any evidence in the history of this country, which has had a type of government that many many other nations have sought to emulate, to back your claim that we would be better off without a government.

Quote:

you act as if everyone would be back in the stone age without government and its just incorrect, the market would still exist, life would go on as usual, we just wouldn't have an overbearing mommy telling us what not to do




I really doubt that life would go on as usual. A market without regulation could very conceivably result in monopolies and an increasing cost of living for individuals not in positions of control. Leading to, ironically, serfdom. This is all theoretical of course, but you are just as guilty of idle speculation in this scenario as I am. You have faith in a government-less system and I just don't. Either way it is a question of faith.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228056 - 04/02/08 10:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
traditional liberals did believe in these things but modern liberalism is nothing remotely similar, it is just moralists seeking to impose their beliefs on others via government

besides, i'm more of an anarcho capitalist than a libertarian, theres distinct differences




That's funny, John Locke is known as the father of modern liberalism.  Anarchism is not far from liberalism and "distinct differences" between anarcho capitalists and libertarians seems pretty damn nitpicky, I would say the two ideologies are within a stone's throw from one another.

But whatever, everybody gets to pick their own labels, it wouldn't be any fun otherwise.:shrug:


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8228086 - 04/02/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

roads and libraries could be provided by a market entity, in which those who wish to use said product would pay a price, just like anything else in the market.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/woods-d1.html

the founding fathers version of the government is far from the current version, and i have already said i would willingly participate in a constitutional size and scoped government. the spirit of their fight for independence is that a man owns his own life, and is entitled to do what he pleases with his life as long as he harms no others.

does our current government not resemble the entity in which they fought against for independence? the current government has trampled all over the rights and the constitution, and continues to inch its way towards a police state. it is the duty of a free person to reject such a force.

you may be better of with a government, but what is so dangerous about making this government voluntary?

and when does government stop growing?

monopolies are regulated by the market place, and modern monopolies only exist as a result of direct government regulation.


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Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228155 - 04/02/08 11:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
roads and libraries could be provided by a market entity, in which those who wish to use said product would pay a price, just like anything else in the market. 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/woods-d1.html





Link lead to an opinion piece on why it would it preferrable to hand over the building of roads to private companies which could in turn charge us as much as they would like for use of their tolls. (Ironically the author complains about pollution emitted by cars but then attacks the government for regulating fuel emissions :confused:) I wonder who would protect these road builder's right to charge us astronomical fees without a government in place? I also see no evidence in the article to suggest that privatized roads wouldn't go the direction of other privated industries such as energy...in other words more expensive for the consumer, less efficient, and ultimately landing in the hands of one massive corporation that is able to monopolize the road building industry by buying out the competition, and then using their unchallenged status as the sole road builder to charge whatever they please. I'd rather pay taxes. Again, this is my idle speculation against yours, but mine makes more sense to me. Some evidence to the contrary, instead of an op-ed article, would go a long way.

Quote:

monopolies are regulated by the market place, and modern monopolies only exist as a result of direct government regulation.




I can't say I even understand remotely how you got to this conclusion. I know it is a tall order, but please convince me, using evidence if possible.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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