Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck, Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: Ferris]
    #8227925 - 04/02/08 10:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think a modern liberal is someone who realizes that we are existing in a society in which we live in the shadow of immenseley powerful giants of two types: the state and the corporations. While Libertarians and free market capitalists argue that individuals in our society have access to the same resources as everyone else and there is nothing preventing each of us from becoming the next Rupert Murdoch, this is really just not true any more. Wealth and power becomes more and more held in the hands of people who already have most of the wealth and resources. Fledging corporations are bought by existing multi-billion dollar Trans-National Corporations. Wal-Mart has destroyed local business. Competition is a thing of the past. Most of us will work our whole lives for one of these corporations, who do their best to short-change us in terms of our money, health, and security. Inheritance is the number one factor in determining the wealth of individuals.

In the face of this, the liberal must reluctantly appeal to the other evil power, government, in order to police the corporations. Not because the liberal likes giving power to the government, but because the government is the only instituion that has any power to take on a juggernaut like Wal-Mart to create a law that says they have to let their employees take a lunch break during an eight hour shift. To limit the power of the corporation to cheat, lie, pollute, and make our lives worse.

I think the best liberals go beyond just having the government try and fix all their problems and have embraced the idea of local collectivism. They support local organic agriciulture farms for food supplies. They bike and use public transportation instead of flushing money down the drain by supporting the auto and oil industry, and if they do have a car they use zip cars or share them with multiple other people. They form collectives, they pool resources so they don't have to shop at wal-mart. They live off the grid, installing solar and wind power generators on their houses. They compost their waste.

Collectivist liberals get laughed at a lot, and are labelled as hippies, but when you look at humans over time, they are doing what people have done for a long time and what makes the most sense. Instead of looking out for #1 and humping the fallacy/myth that upward mobility is possible, a myth that keeps all of us down both spiritually and financially, they have decided to simply share what they have where they have it with others in a local fashion. They realize that both government and corporations are massive corrupt systems of exploitation and instead of hurling rocks at them they just trying to disconnect from each as much as possible and create a manage-able localized existence.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineanyone420
mad buddah abuser
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 5,956
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8227965 - 04/02/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

anyone420 said:
I think your wrong. I do not need, nor want any government services. I do not want their protection.





You don't want roads or schools or libraries or energy for your home or laws that ensure that other people can't cheat you out of money or steal from you or infect you with disease or murder you?

Ok, well I guess you could disappear and live in a cave somewhere and not be a member of a society that relies on government.

Except your best bet for living in a cave would be to go to a state or national park, because these are the only places not open to private development so you'd still be sucking on the govment's teet. Plus the fact that without the government some corporation could probably save millions by dumping unregulated radioactive waste into your cave.

And say you lived with a bunch of other cave dwellers. I am pretty sure that if one of them started hoarding all of the food you would find some way or another of preventing them from doing so, whether it was pre-emptive or disciplinary. And you would probably at some point realize that you could all have more food if you pooled your resources, hunted as a group, and shared the product of the hunt more or less collectively. Boom, all of a sudden you have a collectivist society, a small scale form of government.

I don't know. It just seems like an intellectual cop-out to totally reject a government that you are still dependent upon, because its easier to reject a complicated system outright than admitting that said system, although corrupt, has clear cut benefits for you and that if you were more hard working and active you could actually affect change at least on a small level.




of course roads and libraries are the first thing anyone mentions as a necessary function of government. those could easily be provided by the market place, in the absence of a government, do a little research on it. as far as people that want to steal from me, i can defend myself, and i dont need the illusion that some police force actually prevents these crimes from happening, because they still do at extremely high rates even within the police state of america.

i reject government because government is force. government operates on the threat of violence, and this is wrong. i support freedom, not serfdom.

saying i should go live in a cage is pretty wack man, were the american revolutionaries that fought for independence a cop out? the spirit of the founding principles of the united states is that each person is entitled to their lives, and anything they see fit for their lives as long as they harm no others. your collectivist mentality is a bit skewed i think.

you act as if everyone would be back in the stone age without government and its just incorrect, the market would still exist, life would go on as usual, we just wouldn't have an overbearing mommy telling us what not to do

and i'm not the only one who thinks like this, look up the free state project


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerexmundi
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 314
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8227974 - 04/02/08 10:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And you say you don't have liberal values?!?:shake:


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineanyone420
mad buddah abuser
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 5,956
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: rexmundi]
    #8227982 - 04/02/08 10:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

liberals have values? what are you saying?

or was that not directed at me..


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerexmundi
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 314
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228024 - 04/02/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Read John Locke's Second Treatise on Government. Liberals hate the government, they value private enterprise and small government and personal freedoms. They were originally against the Monarchists who were the conservatives.

America is founded on Liberal Values, you can see the Lockean influence on the Constitution. Everything you just spouted off are the original liberal values...belief in the free market over government to deliver services, less government coercion etc.

Libertarianism stems from this.


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineanyone420
mad buddah abuser
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 5,956
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: rexmundi]
    #8228037 - 04/02/08 10:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

traditional liberals did believe in these things but modern liberalism is nothing remotely similar, it is just moralists seeking to impose their beliefs on others via government

besides, i'm more of an anarcho capitalist than a libertarian, theres distinct differences


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228041 - 04/02/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
of course roads and libraries are the first thing anyone mentions as a necessary function of government. those could easily be provided by the market place, in the absence of a government, do a little research on it.



I am ignorant of the evidence that proves there would still be all the services provided by the government in the absence of the government. Please provide such proof so that I may be enlightened.

Quote:

i reject government because government is force. government operates on the threat of violence, and this is wrong. i support freedom, not serfdom.

saying i should go live in a cage is pretty wack man, were the american revolutionaries that fought for independence a cop out? the spirit of the founding principles of the united states is that each person is entitled to their lives, and anything they see fit for their lives as long as they harm no others. your collectivist mentality is a bit skewed i think.




The revolutionaries fought so they could form their own government, not so that there could be no government. The spirit of this nation is founded upon the notion of liberty protected by a government. If not, why would the founding Fathers draw up constitution and create a government? Not that what the founding fathers intended is necessarily the most important question today, but I don't see any evidence in the history of this country, which has had a type of government that many many other nations have sought to emulate, to back your claim that we would be better off without a government.

Quote:

you act as if everyone would be back in the stone age without government and its just incorrect, the market would still exist, life would go on as usual, we just wouldn't have an overbearing mommy telling us what not to do




I really doubt that life would go on as usual. A market without regulation could very conceivably result in monopolies and an increasing cost of living for individuals not in positions of control. Leading to, ironically, serfdom. This is all theoretical of course, but you are just as guilty of idle speculation in this scenario as I am. You have faith in a government-less system and I just don't. Either way it is a question of faith.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerexmundi
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 314
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228056 - 04/02/08 10:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
traditional liberals did believe in these things but modern liberalism is nothing remotely similar, it is just moralists seeking to impose their beliefs on others via government

besides, i'm more of an anarcho capitalist than a libertarian, theres distinct differences




That's funny, John Locke is known as the father of modern liberalism.  Anarchism is not far from liberalism and "distinct differences" between anarcho capitalists and libertarians seems pretty damn nitpicky, I would say the two ideologies are within a stone's throw from one another.

But whatever, everybody gets to pick their own labels, it wouldn't be any fun otherwise.:shrug:


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineanyone420
mad buddah abuser
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 5,956
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8228086 - 04/02/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

roads and libraries could be provided by a market entity, in which those who wish to use said product would pay a price, just like anything else in the market.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/woods-d1.html

the founding fathers version of the government is far from the current version, and i have already said i would willingly participate in a constitutional size and scoped government. the spirit of their fight for independence is that a man owns his own life, and is entitled to do what he pleases with his life as long as he harms no others.

does our current government not resemble the entity in which they fought against for independence? the current government has trampled all over the rights and the constitution, and continues to inch its way towards a police state. it is the duty of a free person to reject such a force.

you may be better of with a government, but what is so dangerous about making this government voluntary?

and when does government stop growing?

monopolies are regulated by the market place, and modern monopolies only exist as a result of direct government regulation.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: What defines the modern liberal? [Re: anyone420]
    #8228155 - 04/02/08 11:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
roads and libraries could be provided by a market entity, in which those who wish to use said product would pay a price, just like anything else in the market. 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/woods-d1.html





Link lead to an opinion piece on why it would it preferrable to hand over the building of roads to private companies which could in turn charge us as much as they would like for use of their tolls. (Ironically the author complains about pollution emitted by cars but then attacks the government for regulating fuel emissions :confused:) I wonder who would protect these road builder's right to charge us astronomical fees without a government in place? I also see no evidence in the article to suggest that privatized roads wouldn't go the direction of other privated industries such as energy...in other words more expensive for the consumer, less efficient, and ultimately landing in the hands of one massive corporation that is able to monopolize the road building industry by buying out the competition, and then using their unchallenged status as the sole road builder to charge whatever they please. I'd rather pay taxes. Again, this is my idle speculation against yours, but mine makes more sense to me. Some evidence to the contrary, instead of an op-ed article, would go a long way.

Quote:

monopolies are regulated by the market place, and modern monopolies only exist as a result of direct government regulation.




I can't say I even understand remotely how you got to this conclusion. I know it is a tall order, but please convince me, using evidence if possible.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck, Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* why does the shroomery hate the US Government?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Anonymous 11,271 86 10/03/18 01:46 PM
by Ant89
* Have you become more liberal or conservative?
( 1 2 all )
mantis 4,101 24 04/29/05 03:10 PM
by Rono
* Canada - Liberals unveil pot bill for second time
( 1 2 all )
ThorA 4,797 23 11/02/04 02:49 PM
by kadakuda
* Wow I'm getting really government paranoid..
( 1 2 3 all )
Tyrone_C 5,690 53 11/10/05 06:39 AM
by Scarfmeister
* Liberate Charles Manson
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
rogue_pixie 15,314 157 07/12/15 02:23 AM
by endogenous
* my friend saw a HUGE marijuana field in Hawaii owned by the government.
( 1 2 3 all )
Phishgrrl 7,006 50 01/08/09 03:25 PM
by Ripple
* "So what you saying is I owe the government 1400$,soonmore Psilocybeingzz 1,087 9 12/15/03 12:04 AM
by Ekstaza
* Does anyone know where I can find info about getting government grants for starting your own buisnes emptywisdom 1,965 10 05/10/05 07:51 PM
by THE KRAT BARON

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
4,541 topic views. 10 members, 36 guests and 119 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.