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OfflineRobert26
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Registered: 01/30/08
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Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
(I don't understand) The Concept of Casing
    #8014472 - 02/12/08 07:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hello everyone, this is my first post on Shroomery, but I've been doing just about all of my research here. I really like this website, (almost) everyone here is very helpful and I've learned a lot from reading old posts. I tried my best to search any questions I had and now I'm left with only a few. This will be my first grow ever, and I'm very excited. And it's thanks to this website that I know what I do now.

My first question is about casing. I am following the "standard" PF Tek, and was planning on going through with fruiting with the cakes, but I've been reading a lot about casing, and it seems like the superior method. But I don't think I understand the concept of casing... I know there is a lot of information on HOW to case and everything, but I had a hard time finding a post about the concept as a whole. (More "why" questions then "how")

So what is the point of casing? You break up colonized substrate for more surface area, and I know that improves growth. But why? And what is the point of a non-nutritious casing mix layer? If the substrate is fully colonized, why must the casing mix be sterilized?

I've read a few times that the mix is made to retain moisture... if that's true, and its only purpose, why go through the work of making it if you could just put colonized substrate in a humidified FC?

These are sort of fundamental questions, and I feel if I can't answer them, I must not understand casing fully. If some of my assumptions are correct, why don't you just break up a cake and throw it in a pan and put that in a FC?

Thank you for your help!


Edited by Robert26 (02/12/08 07:44 PM)


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Offlinedbt123
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Registered: 12/10/07
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Robert26]
    #8014588 - 02/12/08 07:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Though it seems you have done your research, if you use the search u can still answer all of your questions....

casing layer is used primarily as a water resovoir for your fruiting mushrooms, it also acts as a better suited surface for the mushrooms to grow. the point of it being non nutritious is so the mycelium instead of wanting to fully colonize the casing layer it is wanting to start fruiting....the reason behind sterilizing is because you dont want contaminats to take over befor the mushrooms have time to flush..

i tryed to answer to my knowledge if im wrong correct me:)

hope that helps....-D


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Anything said by DBT123 is a complete act of fiction and is in no way linked to any person....:)


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Invisiblelarge_dose
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: dbt123]
    #8014607 - 02/12/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Do not sterilize a casing...

pasturize only.


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OfflineRobert26
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: large_dose]
    #8014653 - 02/12/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So the mix acts as some sort of moisture retention layer? In that case, why not just break up colonized substrate and put it in a humid FC?

If the mix is non-nutritious, why must you sterilize (pasteurize?) it? Why would bacteria contaminate something with no nutritional value?

Thanks for the replies.


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InvisibleGretchenmeister
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Robert26]
    #8014732 - 02/12/08 07:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well do you think the caulk in your bathroom has nutes? The casing as well ass providing some additional moisture also protects the substrate layer from drying out. Casing can help produce fruits a bit faster IME than fruiting naked substrate as it adds another trigger for pinning stimulus...being non nutrious...the myc says "OH NO IM OUTTA NUTES TIME TO MAKE FRUITS". I find casing straight grains to be a hassle...some like it though...I really like spawning some grain to some poo/straw...then fruit cased or uncased...much bigger fruits and moisture for the longevity of your first few flushes. Also...to stave of contams on that casing...be sure you are giving your reasearch plenty of FRESH AIR!!!! GOOD LUCK


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Offlinehazey
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Registered: 01/20/08
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Gretchenmeister]
    #8014743 - 02/12/08 07:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gretchenmeister said:
Well do you think the caulk in your bathroom has nutes?




yeah be careful around the caulk.


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Invisiblethedefone
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Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Gretchenmeister]
    #8014755 - 02/12/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If the mix is non-nutritious, why must you sterilize (pasteurize?) it? Why would bacteria contaminate something with no nutritional value?



Just because the casing is not nutritious to cube mycelium, doesn't mean there's nothing in there for trichodermia, or cobweb, or whatever. This is a really good post by Hyphae about casing. It may clear up some of your questions.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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OfflineRobert26
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: hazey]
    #8014767 - 02/12/08 08:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, you're right, bacteria can contaminate anything if given the right conditions. So now I have a reason to sterilize the mix but...

If the mix is only to retain moisture and aid in the initiation of pinning, why are there different recipes for casing mix? I mean it sounds like you could use just about anything that isn't nutritious and can hold moisture... like straight vermiculite or something similar. Why go through the hassle of anything else?


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Invisiblethedefone
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Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Robert26]
    #8014805 - 02/12/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So now I have a reason to sterilize the mix but...



No, now you have a reason to pasteurize the mix. Pasteurization over sterilization is the conventional wisdom. It helps avoid contamination by allowing beneficial bacteria to survive.

Anyway, straight verm can be used as a casing, though most think that it is sub-standard. The 60/40 verm/coir casing recipe has coir in it, and if you are new or distracted, the mycelium may over-colonize it due to the nutes in the coir, reducing the casing's ability to hold water. PH adjusted 50/50 verm/peat is the standard. I don't know why peat is good, I just use it. PH adjustment with hydrated lime also helps ward of contamination.


Edited by thedefone (02/12/08 08:17 PM)


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OfflineDr_Mcgillicuddy
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: thedefone]
    #8014843 - 02/12/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I know one thing I learned from roger rabbit that helped me out alot with my casing mix and the proportions of peat to verm to Calcium carbonate(crushed oystershells)to gypsum was a post he made a while back on the topic. He also has a unique way of pasturizing that is so simple and it works perfect everytime no thermometer or anything... However I can not quote him because I can't find the quote, anyone know the one I mean ?


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Offlineasknoquestions
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Registered: 01/16/08
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: thedefone]
    #8014859 - 02/12/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My understanding, by reading through the lines is that say a 50/50 peat verm mix provides all of the above, plus it acts as a substitution layer for the mycelium to grow through. That is, when you pick a fruit from a casing layer you disturb the casing, rather than the bed of healthy mycelium. Also, you really can't PH adjust a block of substrate to discourage contaminant growth while still allowing for full colonization.

A big part of the theory behind casing is the texture of the casing. The carpophores grow directly from it and they still come away easily while being provided moisture from the casing. Peat and verm hold a lot more water than say grains.


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OfflineDr_Mcgillicuddy
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Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Dr_Mcgillicuddy]
    #8014865 - 02/12/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I know the question isn't really how to make a casing but this should help anyway

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Here's my casing and pasteurization tek of choice.
RR

Casing tek

Measure the appropriate amount of dry peat moss for your application. For the first few times you make up casing mix, you’ll just have to take an educated guess as to how much to prepare, then add or subtract from that amount as needed for future projects.

Place the dry peat into a large bowl, five gallon bucket, wheelbarrow, etc., depending on amount. Leave room for the quantity to double, and still allow space to stir. Break up the dry peat very well. There should be no chunks when you get finished, having carefully broken up the peat until it’s all the same consistency. To each cup of peat moss, add one teaspoon of hydrated horticultural lime, and one to two tablespoons of gypsum. Certain species can benefit from two tablespoons or even more of gypsum per cup, so don’t be afraid to experiment, up to ten percent of the amount of peat.

Mix these dry ingredients together well. After mixing, slowly add water to the mix, stirring constantly. Add moisture until field capacity is achieved. I define field capacity as being reached when you can pick up a handful of the mix and no water drips out. If you squeeze lightly a few drops will come out, and if you squeeze very hard, a small rivulet or stream will flow out. Remember, the peat will not absorb all the water at once, so when you reach field capacity, let the mix sit for ten minutes and check again. Chances are, you’ll have to add more moisture.

In a separate bowl, place an equal amount by volume of vermiculite. Fill the bowl with water so the vermiculite begins to float a bit. Turn the bowl over and allow all the water to drain off. A fine mesh strainer works well for larger amounts.

Mix the moistened vermiculite with the moistened peat/lime/gypsum very well and pasteurize at 140F to 160F for one hour. Use as soon as it’s cooled. If you don’t use it all, it’s best to discard or use for your houseplants. Make a fresh batch every time for best results.
RR







Pasteurization tek

Load the pre-moistened to field capacity casing mix, compost or manure into quart mason jars. Place a lid and/or foil over the top. Put the jars into a large covered pot of cold water, with the water filled to 2/3 to ¾ of the way up the jars. A large kettle or pressure cooker works well. If necessary, put a plate or some other weight over the jars to prevent them from floating. Make sure you have a spacer or dishtowel under the jars to prevent the direct heat of the stove burner or flame from cracking your jars. Place the lid on the pot and turn on the stove. Bring the water to a boil, but watch over it and as soon as the water actually reaches a boil, shut off the stove, but leave the pot sitting on the burner. The preceding is for an electric stove that will remain hot for a little while after shutting off power. If you use gas, allow the water to boil for one to two minutes before shutting off the stove. After a couple of hours when they’ve cooled, the jars can be removed and used.

The first time or two you use this technique, monitor the interior of your jars with a meat thermometer. Place it right into the center of the peat or compost. You want to make sure the center of the jar reaches at least 140F and stays there for an hour, but don’t allow it to exceed 170F. Depending on the thickness and capacity of your kettle and lid, you may need to adjust the above times slightly. This tek works because glass is an insulator, so the temperature inside the jars lags the water in the kettle. When I use the above procedure with 7 full quart jars in my All American 921, it comes out perfectly just as written. If you use a smaller pot, you may need to turn the stove on briefly at the ½ hour mark for a few minutes.

The advantage to this tek is there is no pillowcase, etc., to drain and little to no mess or stink is made in your kitchen or pressure cooker. The disadvantage is you have a bunch of jars to wash when you’re done.
RR




Edited by Dr_Mcgillicuddy (02/12/08 08:32 PM)


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OfflineRobert26
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Registered: 01/30/08
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Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Dr_Mcgillicuddy]
    #8015019 - 02/12/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you all for your help and quick responses. So let me see if I have this straight:

1. Casing increases the surface area of a colonized substrate which increases yield (though I'm not sure how that works still)

2. The casing mix provides moisture and (when mixed with a basic pH level) contamination resistance... for the mix itself? I'm still confused with this, as it sounds like all of this can be achieved with something simple like straight vermiculite. And if the mix can harbor contaminants, it sounds to me like you're just adding another dangerous factor. Again, why not just break up a cake and allow it to grow in a pan in a FC?


Edited by Robert26 (02/12/08 10:13 PM)


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: Robert26]
    #8024499 - 02/14/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The casing mix provides moisture and (when mixed with a basic pH level) contamination resistance... for the mix itself?



Yes. PH adjustment helps keep the casing from getting contaminated.

Quote:

it sounds like all of this can be achieved with something simple like straight vermiculite.



It can, but not as well. Wet straight vermiculite is denser than when mixed with the peat. That peat helps keep the mix more airy, but still just as wet.

Quote:

. And if the mix can harbor contaminants, it sounds to me like you're just adding another dangerous factor.



If you're careful, it shouldn't be an issue. Everything you do in this hobby is a vector for contamination. The challenge is keeping them out.

Quote:

Again, why not just break up a cake and allow it to grow in a pan in a FC?



If you case after you do that, and return to colonization conditions, you are not only giving the crumbled cakes a chance to mend and form a single mat, you are also adding that moisture reservoir in the casing. Casings can do good things. Just give it a good solid pasteurization, and fruit the bitch. You'll be fine. Good Luck.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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OfflineRobert26
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 7
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: The Concept of Casing [Re: thedefone] * 1
    #8043042 - 02/19/08 02:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

thedefone answered my questions wonderfully, I thank you.

In case anyone ever searches and finds this thread, this was the basic answer to my question that I just found... (it gives the reasoning behind casing)

"In order to coerce the fungus into creating mushrooms, a low-nutrient casing is placed on top of the compost. Thinking it is about to run out of food, the fungus will produce fruiting bodies (mushrooms) to disperse spores. When just the right time has come, harvesters will come along and cut the mushrooms away from the mycelium." (From http://www.shamanshop.net/casing.htm)


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