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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641129 -

OK but lets deconstruct this a bit.

Science has NOTHING to say about detecting chakras in yourself. It can't because it has no way to reach into your mind and see what's going on, and take measurements, and compile statistics. If you say you sense your chakras, science just shrugs its shoulders and says nothing. :shrug:

BUT, if you say you can sense chakras in OTHER people like several in that thread say they can do, then science jumps up and says WAIT! That can be tested. I can blindfold you, lay someone on a table and walk you over to him to see if you can detect a chakra. Then I can walk you to another empty table and see if you can detect a chakra.

Then I repeat enough this times randomly that a statistically sufficient sample size is acquired. When that's done, I can look at the data and determine if your results correlate with random guessing or with real chakra detection.

Voila! Science now has something very definitive and useful and REAL to say about your claim to be able to detect chakras in others.

See the difference?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641177 -

I just don't trust the scientific method to find a way of fairly determining such subjective phenomena as the ones discussed, like detecting other people's chakras. How do they know it's not possible in conditions other than the ones tested in? What if there's "psychic interference" or some such shit coming from people scrutinizing the healers so closely? Supposition, obviously, but we don't know, because science obviously doesn't know shit about chakras.

Spiritual phenomena like these are really hard to fairly test using scientific method.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 06:36 PM)

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641186 -

What is subjective about detecting someone's chakra and saying so? Either you sense it or you don't.

How do they know it's not possible in conditions other than the ones tested in?

Again, haven't you been reading what I typed in that thread. These healers THEMSELVES said that the conditions ARE valid. It isn't the scientists who are making this up. The experiment is guided by what the healers say is valid testing.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641198 -

I must have missed that part.

I still think it's premature to deny the veracity of spiritual phenomena as a whole because it often can't be reproduced in a lab.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 06:41 PM)

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641203 -

And the people claiming to be able to detect chakras in others in that thread were not at all wishywashy about it. They said very clearly and straight up that they can do this.

Are they liars?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641229 -

They're not liars, they're probably just full of shit up to their eyes.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641245 -

Wow, we finally agree! :razz:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641249 -

Awesome, I was so tired of arguing. :laugh:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641258 -

/me passes Tchan909 teh bong. :bigweed:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641325 -

Diploid said:
And the people claiming to be able to detect chakras in others in that thread were not at all wishywashy about it. They said very clearly and straight up that they can do this.
.
Are they liars?


The mind is a powerful tool....
If you concentrate on your hand to the point of feeling a tingling in your palm, you have felt something....
Is it "magical", kinda~.... 
Just because you had the power to sense something specific that you "created" as a sensation....
Is it a lie, not really....

The tingling feels cooler in the middle parts of your body tho~....    :grin:

Assigning meaning to it, giving it a name tag, and then pushing it as an absolute truth, that my friend is a double edged sword with a sharp handle....    :lipsrsealed:    :thumbup: 

But, the original poster in the other thread was setting forth an idea, for other people to try,
as a way to explain the phenomenon of the tingles one may get in different parts of their body -
as it relates to their emotional concentration levels from a visual stimulus....
Seemed like a simple enough experiment to try, but I bet not many people even tried....    :ohwell:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7641341 -

Anyone thirsty? I've got a dousing rod. :smile:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641369 -

Don't get me started on dousing! :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641405 -

But, the original poster in the other thread was setting forth an idea, for other people to try

And I'm cool with that. How could I not be.

But in that thread there was also this post where it was said:

Quote:
All I know is that I've EXPERIENCED them and sensed them in others.


THAT (sensed them in others) is testable by science. There's a million bucks on the table for the first person who can do what that quote says with smug confidence.

If I knew I could do something for which there is a million dollar prize on the table, you wouldn't be able to see me because I'd be a blur on my way to the test. But somehow, mystic-heads who claim this amazing ability keep working every day until they die instead of grabbing the prize and retiring.

Why might that be?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641428 -

You are, honestly, right.

I just have a hard time imagining that these ideas are rooted entirely in fantasy. I think there might be something to it, but it's probably not quite tangible to most people (myself included) who would actually want to go in and get a million dollars for proving his powers in a laboratory.

And the others, as stated before, are most likely full of shit.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 07:27 PM)

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641589 -

I can't argue that, nor defend the argument or statement (it wasn't my claim).... 

But, for me, the million dollars would not be a consideration....
I wouldn't tell anyone....   
If some kind of "super powers" were bestowed upon me, the last thing I would want to do is draw attention to myself - for quite a few solid reasons....

If someone could read minds for instance, don't you think the government would snatch you up and keep you.....?
You would be a definite and SERIOUS security risk, and I doubt that any part of the government would let you roam the streets with that kind of capability....
They would figure out how to exploit the power to the benefit of being some kind of weapon....
And/Or they would be testing the ba-jezuz out of you to see how it could be duplicated and mass produced (as a weapon)....
And quite possibly, they would try to find a way to counteract the ability, or make it so you no longer had it....

Then you have the psycho religious folks who would interpret your ability as being the Antichrist.....
And they would try to exterminate you to save the world....

I could think of many many more examples of what could happen, and if you put yourself in the mental shoes, so could you.....
Fame and fortune is fine, ***if*** that is what you are looking for....    :wink:
I could get buy without the fame (as I currently am :smirk: ), I could use a little more money (who couldn't?),
but having my own time and freedom to do what I want when I please, that my friend, is priceless to me....

I might stop out to Vegas to start my world adventure tour, but Randi would be keeping his money....    :thumbup:

Again, this is not a defense for anyone else's statements or claims, but how I see myself reacting to having a "extraordinary ability"....
Lots and lots of travel would be in my future....    :smile:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7641639 -

If someone could read minds for instance, don't you think the government would snatch you up and keep you

This seems a little paranoid. Once you win the money, you'd be on CNN and every other media 24x7 and you'd have the money and fame to protect yourself legally and physically, not to mention leave the country for someplace safer immediately after the test.

Besides, the only people I'm referring to are the ones ACTIVELY CLAIMING to have these powers (see the post I linked ^^^ up there, and a zillion more if you use the search function, and a zillion more if you look on Goggle) so the "I'm afraid of the evil government" argument doesn't hold up. If they're afraid of the government, why do they have such a big mouth?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641672 -

BTW, Randi's isn't the only prize of this type on the table. There are many more in many countries around the world where the US government would not be able to reach you.

Here are three of them:

The Premanand Challenge (India):
http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/rules.htm

The Australian Skeptics Challenge (Australia):
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/challenge.htm

The Science and Rationalists' Challenge (India):
http://humanists.net/avijit/prabir/sra.htm


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641859 -

Diploid said:
This seems a little paranoid. Once you win the money, you'd be on CNN and every other media 24x7 and you'd have the money and fame to protect yourself legally and physically, not to mention leave the country for someplace safer immediately after the test.


Paranoid....?    Would I be paranoid to not go into a hungry lion's den for fear that it might eat me....?    :smirk:
You don't think that the government would put an end to a known security risk, immediately....???
It is not about being evil, it is the logically obvious thing for the government to do to protect the country's security....    :shrug:

Even in your own words here, you have stated some possible solutions in order to be in a "safer" way....
It is even safer to keep the ability to yourself, so you wouldn't have to worry about figuring out the "safer" way....
How would you consider that to equate to be "freedom" (which I consider to be priceless)....?
People would fear you, it is a natural response to someone different than you.... 
With fear, unfortunately, comes a lot of bad stuff....    :frown:
It is the nature of human nature in this reality....


People can spout off all they want too, no one really takes them seriously (except the people that want to believe)
- hence the never-ending battles here on the subject....
If you were plastered on CNN 24/7 as a proven fact of having special abilities, that is a little different than making an anonymous claim on the interweb....
When I say "put yourself in the mental shoes", I don't mean of people that are making claims, I mean the shoes of actually having a extraordinary ability....

And, I know you aren't referring to me....    But, I believe it would be the search for fame that would drive one to win Randi's money....
As there would be many more ways to get a million bux without drawing attention to the fact that you had an ability....    :thumbup:

If you REALLY had an ability, do you honestly think that you would run to Randi....?  Honestly now....?
I think that would be a HUGE mistake that you could never take back - literally....   
Without anyone knowing, you are as safe as what anyone else without a target on their back would be....    :shrug:


However, with all of this said, I understand your desire to put to rest the claims by testing those people's said claims....
I feel the same way....  :thumbup:    I would like to know if this stuff is possible, just like you....   
Put up or shut up....!    :lol:  Talk is cheap, I got ya~....    :wink:

Being in an Engineering field, all one has to know that something is possible for the clever ones to also find a way to do it -
even if not by doing it the same way as previously done - it doesn't necessarily need to be reverse Engineered to get a solution....
Just the fact of knowing that it is possible, someone else will figure it out....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7643376 -

To thread, let me just throw in that science does indeededly prove something, and that is to prove hypothesis under well determined conditions.
The well determined conditions is that what limits science, and of course, that it doesn't question any meaning or assumption. That is done, by lets call it 'social science' or even 'philosophic science'. There, metaphysics, philosophy even psychology and theology resist.
They even can be used as tools, but under different conditions.

Science is mainly used as an instrument of 'approval', but it also can be used as an instrument of disproving but in very exclusive, limited and well controlled conditions with the mechanism of exclusion itself. (One can prove that there's no apple in a certain canister, for example. You have to prove that the canister is full of anything other, than an apple and that this is exclusive).

Just my thoughts, anyways, maybe I am off track totally :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7643394 -

Word.

Human Scientists =

Mom and Dad already have most of it figured out...

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