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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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scientists are like kids playing video games
    #7636999 - 11/14/07 09:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If children sit down at a video game and play it for a long time, they will naturally come to the conclusion that they understand it once they have gotten good at it. However, chances are they have absolutely no understanding of how the console actually functions and why it produces the images and sounds that it does.

Scientists are like that. Just because you have treatments for ADD, depression, schizophrenia, etc. doesn't mean you know what those treatments actually do or how the brain works.

Stop worshiping science, people. It's a false idol. I want to be a scientist someday but I plan on keeping the place of my work in perspective. A lot of these people talk like they understand things much better than they do, and a lot of us just lap it all up.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 09:25 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637039 - 11/14/07 09:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:Scientists are like that. Just because you have treatments for ADD, depression, schizophrenia, etc. doesn't mean you know what those treatments actually do or how the brain works.


Ive never heard them claim to know what is actually going on, or how the brain works.  :ohwell:

You dont have to know how something works to know that it does work.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: DieCommie]
    #7637067 - 11/14/07 09:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

People assume scientists know these things. Constantly.

People say they don't believe in God or the afterlife because they believe in science. Science has never disproved either of these things, it just fails to address them because it has no means of doing so.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding taking place between the scientists and the people who listen to them. I'm not sure where exactly that misunderstanding is, but it leads to people vociferously denying anything that hasn't been examined by science exists. It's about as enlightened a viewpoint as religious fundamentalism.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 09:40 PM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: DieCommie]
    #7637069 - 11/14/07 09:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

O but its assumed that they do know. This is why pills are on the market while certain herbs "require more research". 4000 years of anecdotal evidence is not good enough, yet 3 years of anecdotal evidence voiced by doctors on the other hand...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637085 - 11/14/07 09:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Science has never disproved either of these things

Wow, you have a lot to learn about science. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7637094 - 11/14/07 09:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Explain to me how science can empirically deny the existence of God or an afterlife. Please. I would like to test the experiment myself.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 09:59 PM)


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637177 - 11/14/07 10:00 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Explain to me how science can empirically deny the existence of God or an afterlife. Please.




It can't. Science, ultimately, would prove such things to actualy exist. There is a loooong ways to go.

The mainstream scientific advances humans have made so far and the picture it paints of the whole cosmic scheme, is about equal to a child knowing why boogers form in their nostrils.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7637216 - 11/14/07 10:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Explain to me how science can empirically deny the existence of God or an afterlife. Please. I would like to test the experiment myself.




This argument is vaguely reminescent, though I cant....quite...place...

Maybe we should focus address this mind/body issue in the way it was originally expressed, or through sciences role towards drugs and pharms etc?  I suggest we for the moment forget sciences relation to god, and focus on its relation to other intangibles...:shrug: I think it might be more intriguing this way. Really itll be the same thing


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637217 - 11/14/07 10:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Science is a very useful tool, and I always love learning about some of the latest discoveries. It's going to be incredibly important in dealing with climate change and the oil crisis, which is one of my major areas of interest. I think the problem comes when you stop using science as a tool and start treating it as an ideology, which it was never meant to be.

I do find it interesting that the lines between science, religion, and mysticism were once drawn differently. At one point it was science and mysticism on one side and religion on the other. Both were based on individual empirical observation(as opposed to the dogmatism of religion). Mysticism explored the internal while science explored the external. It's a bit of a shame that now the three of them all seem to be opposed to one another(though not in all cases).


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Silversoul]
    #7637228 - 11/14/07 10:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I like science because it allows me to locate porn by catagory.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Silversoul]
    #7637232 - 11/14/07 10:16 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Well, it all feeds into the same set of ideas. It was the thread about chakras that made me want to write this post. Just because we haven't invented an x-ray that can display chakra energy doesn't mean chakras don't exist in corporeal reality. I know it's a total cliche, but wasn't the earth supposed to be flat?

It all comes down to that. Science is incomplete. There are more mysteries than there are answers. The last thing I want is for anyone to read these posts and think I disagree with the aim of science as a whole, because that couldn't be further from the truth. Science is the noblest endeavor humanity has embarked upon. But misconstruing the limitations of science is one of the greatest logical fallacies of our time and a tragic mistake made by countless spiritual and political leaders throughout the centuries.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 10:20 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637245 - 11/14/07 10:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
It all comes down to that. Science is incomplete. There are more mysteries than there are answers.



That's the beauty of science. It's never complete. There's always a new chapter to write in it. And sometimes, a new discovery comes along that rewrites the book entirely.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637294 - 11/14/07 10:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Would I be wrong to assert that science is fundamentally an association of concepts derived by Occam's razor?

From Wiki:
The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637295 - 11/14/07 10:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You are right that science doesn't deal in metaphysics, by definition. However, science assumes the null hypothesis. It isn't up to science to disprove god. This is called the burden of proof. It is up to the people who believe in God to prove it exists.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7638422 - 11/15/07 08:05 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The vast majority of scientists will fully, and freely admit what they know, and what they do not know. I have never met an exception to this.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (11/15/07 08:05 AM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: badchad]
    #7638424 - 11/15/07 08:07 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The vast majority of scientists will fully, and freely admit what they know, and what they do not know.  I have never met an exception to this.




:thumbup:

The way it should be!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638456 - 11/15/07 08:31 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said: I know it's a total cliche, but wasn't the earth supposed to be flat?




Yes, until it was tested by science. Humans have known the earth isn't flat for a very long time.

I see your point though. You are trying to claim that since science can't test certain things, then anything goes. 'Well its not silly that I believe that the human body has these metaphysical energy centers where life force flows around and is connected to everything around us and etc...' Well my friend, it still is silly. Where did you get that idea from? Is there any basis for it? Or is just something that some guy thought of and convinced others of. And if so, why do you believe him? Science can in fact rule out various parts of mysticism, such as that humans have superpowers, i.e they can throw people to the ground with their mind, can levitate, other things of this nature we can rule out. But something like a chakra I guess cannot be ruled out, but I dont see it as adding anything except an unnecessary complication to what we know about the body that has no basis.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: badchad]
    #7638931 - 11/15/07 12:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The vast majority of scientists will fully, and freely admit what they know, and what they do not know. I have never met an exception to this.




I, unfortunately, have met many who do this on the daily. I don't think it has more to do with ego than dogmatic science, but I can't say that I don't see this all the time. And yes, having a degree in nuclear engineering, I've been around scientists of every type. Again, it's got more to do with maturity than anything else.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7639031 - 11/15/07 12:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not saying chakras are real either, I'm just saying that if you try to use science to disprove their existence your reasoning is flawed.

I also don't see what's so bad about believing the things religion and mystics say if you want to.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 12:46 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7639129 - 11/15/07 01:00 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

if you try to use science to disprove

Haven't you been reading the replies in is thread? Science doesn't prove ANYTHING. Science doesn't disprove ANYTHING either. Science doesn't work that way.

This thread makes it clear that you have no clue about science, what it is, how it works, what the Scientific Method is, what the Philosophy of Science is, and yet you somehow feel qualified to form opinions about it. WTF!

This is typical of mystic-heads everywhere. They're like Creationists who live in total ignorance and misinformation about evolution coupled with total confidence that it's a useless theory.

Do some research first before you spew ignorant nonsense so you don't come across like a fundamentalist Tennessee hick Bible Thumper without a clue dissing evolution in public schools. Wiki is your friend. So is Google. Even the freekin dictionary. Geez!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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