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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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scientists are like kids playing video games
    #7636999 - 11/14/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If children sit down at a video game and play it for a long time, they will naturally come to the conclusion that they understand it once they have gotten good at it. However, chances are they have absolutely no understanding of how the console actually functions and why it produces the images and sounds that it does.

Scientists are like that. Just because you have treatments for ADD, depression, schizophrenia, etc. doesn't mean you know what those treatments actually do or how the brain works.

Stop worshiping science, people. It's a false idol. I want to be a scientist someday but I plan on keeping the place of my work in perspective. A lot of these people talk like they understand things much better than they do, and a lot of us just lap it all up.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 07:25 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637039 - 11/14/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:Scientists are like that. Just because you have treatments for ADD, depression, schizophrenia, etc. doesn't mean you know what those treatments actually do or how the brain works.


Ive never heard them claim to know what is actually going on, or how the brain works.  :ohwell:

You dont have to know how something works to know that it does work.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: DieCommie]
    #7637067 - 11/14/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

People assume scientists know these things. Constantly.

People say they don't believe in God or the afterlife because they believe in science. Science has never disproved either of these things, it just fails to address them because it has no means of doing so.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding taking place between the scientists and the people who listen to them. I'm not sure where exactly that misunderstanding is, but it leads to people vociferously denying anything that hasn't been examined by science exists. It's about as enlightened a viewpoint as religious fundamentalism.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 07:40 PM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: DieCommie]
    #7637069 - 11/14/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

O but its assumed that they do know. This is why pills are on the market while certain herbs "require more research". 4000 years of anecdotal evidence is not good enough, yet 3 years of anecdotal evidence voiced by doctors on the other hand...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637085 - 11/14/07 07:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Science has never disproved either of these things

Wow, you have a lot to learn about science. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7637094 - 11/14/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Explain to me how science can empirically deny the existence of God or an afterlife. Please. I would like to test the experiment myself.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 07:59 PM)


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637177 - 11/14/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Explain to me how science can empirically deny the existence of God or an afterlife. Please.




It can't. Science, ultimately, would prove such things to actualy exist. There is a loooong ways to go.

The mainstream scientific advances humans have made so far and the picture it paints of the whole cosmic scheme, is about equal to a child knowing why boogers form in their nostrils.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7637216 - 11/14/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Explain to me how science can empirically deny the existence of God or an afterlife. Please. I would like to test the experiment myself.




This argument is vaguely reminescent, though I cant....quite...place...

Maybe we should focus address this mind/body issue in the way it was originally expressed, or through sciences role towards drugs and pharms etc?  I suggest we for the moment forget sciences relation to god, and focus on its relation to other intangibles...:shrug: I think it might be more intriguing this way. Really itll be the same thing


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637217 - 11/14/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Science is a very useful tool, and I always love learning about some of the latest discoveries. It's going to be incredibly important in dealing with climate change and the oil crisis, which is one of my major areas of interest. I think the problem comes when you stop using science as a tool and start treating it as an ideology, which it was never meant to be.

I do find it interesting that the lines between science, religion, and mysticism were once drawn differently. At one point it was science and mysticism on one side and religion on the other. Both were based on individual empirical observation(as opposed to the dogmatism of religion). Mysticism explored the internal while science explored the external. It's a bit of a shame that now the three of them all seem to be opposed to one another(though not in all cases).


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Silversoul]
    #7637228 - 11/14/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I like science because it allows me to locate porn by catagory.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Silversoul]
    #7637232 - 11/14/07 08:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well, it all feeds into the same set of ideas. It was the thread about chakras that made me want to write this post. Just because we haven't invented an x-ray that can display chakra energy doesn't mean chakras don't exist in corporeal reality. I know it's a total cliche, but wasn't the earth supposed to be flat?

It all comes down to that. Science is incomplete. There are more mysteries than there are answers. The last thing I want is for anyone to read these posts and think I disagree with the aim of science as a whole, because that couldn't be further from the truth. Science is the noblest endeavor humanity has embarked upon. But misconstruing the limitations of science is one of the greatest logical fallacies of our time and a tragic mistake made by countless spiritual and political leaders throughout the centuries.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 08:20 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637245 - 11/14/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
It all comes down to that. Science is incomplete. There are more mysteries than there are answers.



That's the beauty of science. It's never complete. There's always a new chapter to write in it. And sometimes, a new discovery comes along that rewrites the book entirely.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637294 - 11/14/07 08:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Would I be wrong to assert that science is fundamentally an association of concepts derived by Occam's razor?

From Wiki:
The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637295 - 11/14/07 08:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are right that science doesn't deal in metaphysics, by definition. However, science assumes the null hypothesis. It isn't up to science to disprove god. This is called the burden of proof. It is up to the people who believe in God to prove it exists.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7638422 - 11/15/07 06:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The vast majority of scientists will fully, and freely admit what they know, and what they do not know. I have never met an exception to this.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (11/15/07 06:05 AM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: badchad]
    #7638424 - 11/15/07 06:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The vast majority of scientists will fully, and freely admit what they know, and what they do not know.  I have never met an exception to this.




:thumbup:

The way it should be!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638456 - 11/15/07 06:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said: I know it's a total cliche, but wasn't the earth supposed to be flat?




Yes, until it was tested by science. Humans have known the earth isn't flat for a very long time.

I see your point though. You are trying to claim that since science can't test certain things, then anything goes. 'Well its not silly that I believe that the human body has these metaphysical energy centers where life force flows around and is connected to everything around us and etc...' Well my friend, it still is silly. Where did you get that idea from? Is there any basis for it? Or is just something that some guy thought of and convinced others of. And if so, why do you believe him? Science can in fact rule out various parts of mysticism, such as that humans have superpowers, i.e they can throw people to the ground with their mind, can levitate, other things of this nature we can rule out. But something like a chakra I guess cannot be ruled out, but I dont see it as adding anything except an unnecessary complication to what we know about the body that has no basis.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: badchad]
    #7638931 - 11/15/07 10:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The vast majority of scientists will fully, and freely admit what they know, and what they do not know. I have never met an exception to this.




I, unfortunately, have met many who do this on the daily. I don't think it has more to do with ego than dogmatic science, but I can't say that I don't see this all the time. And yes, having a degree in nuclear engineering, I've been around scientists of every type. Again, it's got more to do with maturity than anything else.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7639031 - 11/15/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not saying chakras are real either, I'm just saying that if you try to use science to disprove their existence your reasoning is flawed.

I also don't see what's so bad about believing the things religion and mystics say if you want to.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 10:46 AM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7639129 - 11/15/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

if you try to use science to disprove

Haven't you been reading the replies in is thread? Science doesn't prove ANYTHING. Science doesn't disprove ANYTHING either. Science doesn't work that way.

This thread makes it clear that you have no clue about science, what it is, how it works, what the Scientific Method is, what the Philosophy of Science is, and yet you somehow feel qualified to form opinions about it. WTF!

This is typical of mystic-heads everywhere. They're like Creationists who live in total ignorance and misinformation about evolution coupled with total confidence that it's a useless theory.

Do some research first before you spew ignorant nonsense so you don't come across like a fundamentalist Tennessee hick Bible Thumper without a clue dissing evolution in public schools. Wiki is your friend. So is Google. Even the freekin dictionary. Geez!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBernackums
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7639525 - 11/15/07 12:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
People assume scientists know these things. Constantly.

People say they don't believe in God or the afterlife because they believe in science. Science has never disproved either of these things, it just fails to address them because it has no means of doing so.





Well there's your problem, it's not science it's just people, people are stupid. All science is us recording what we've seen happen in our world so far. If you take the entire human race and personify it as a person, that person was just put in this place, not told how anything works, what he's supposed to, etc. All science is is that person jotting down notes about everything around him (i.e. "Ok, things fall down, not up." "Water turns to ice in cold"), we've just advanced on those immensly because there are so many people out there who have a thirst for knowledge.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7639535 - 11/15/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

People assume scientists know these things. Constantly.


So what? Whos fault is that? Maybe people should learn to read and think critically and maybe even make thought out posts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineHahzist
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7639759 - 11/15/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If children sit down at a video game and play it for a long time, they will naturally come to the conclusion that they understand it once they have gotten good at it. However, chances are they have absolutely no understanding of how the console actually functions and why it produces the images and sounds that it does.

Scientists are like that. Just because you have treatments for ADD, depression, schizophrenia, etc. doesn't mean you know what those treatments actually do or how the brain works.

Stop worshiping science, people. It's a false idol. I want to be a scientist someday but I plan on keeping the place of my work in perspective. A lot of these people talk like they understand things much better than they do, and a lot of us just lap it all up.




I completely agree. Its a lot more than psychological disorders its everything. A lot of ignorant people take science as the absolute truth and dont realy question the mysteries of reality and the universe that science has never been able to unlock. It is very much like a kid playing a video game. One can make all sorts of interesting observations about our universe, but there will always be those underlying mysteries which scientists cant penetrate.

But I think all scientists, at least most acknowledge this. Many scientists are religious or spiritual because of their work. They have such an understanding of how incredibly mysterious our universe is and turn to spirituality as an answer. Einstein is a great example of this.

I just cant take complete atheists who dont know anything about science but take it as the answer for everything, then disregard anything unexplained because they dont want to open their minds. Even atheists who do know a lot about science, will do this. Its frustrating to try and have a philosophical discussion with someone like this.


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7639791 - 11/15/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Scientists know a huge amount of information but you'll never hear them say they completely understand how something works. Especially the body or brain. People put faith in science because its an objective way of looking at things, I'd trust a scientists work and word long before I'd trust a fucking politician or priest. I mean at least scientists look at things that are real, not things that appear to be real. If anything is a false idol, its Christ, or money, not science. Case Closed.

If people lap up shit from science and don't research for themselves, and take anything they say for truth, BLAME THE PERSON, NOT SCIENCE.

All science does is objectively obtain information, different scientists come to different conclusions about that information, just as you should. Science is the ONE thing humans have created that can be pure.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (11/15/07 01:28 PM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7639803 - 11/15/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

But diploid, I think he is saying that there is often an unconscious assumption that it does, regaurdless of what science is "defined" as. His example of the whole pharm industry is a very good example of that.


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: daytripper23]
    #7639810 - 11/15/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You have to remember, Scientific information is gathered, and worked on by scientists. It is then put into use by people who are NOT scientists. People who are worried about profit margins not people or good science. You can't blame science for the decisions of bureaucratic pigs.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (11/15/07 01:32 PM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7639813 - 11/15/07 01:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Right, I am not blaming science.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: daytripper23]
    #7639827 - 11/15/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Although the pharm situation might basically come down to money, it is exploited through an assumption that science has thoroughly explored the connections between mind and body.


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: daytripper23]
    #7639844 - 11/15/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Unfortunately your exactly right, the same people take something science has created. Market it as something that has been thoroughly researched and completely safe, by using scientific terms and whatnot. This is called Pseudo-Science. Its in use everywhere today.

25% less fat...25% less that what?
50% more shampoo...50% more than what?
All test subjects reported improved sleep cycles....how many test subjects? Over how much time? After how much use? Did they report side effects?


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: daytripper23]
    #7639851 - 11/15/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

But diploid, I think he is saying that there is often an unconscious assumption that it does, regaurdless of what science is "defined" as.

I don't take issue with that. I agree with that.

What I take issue with is this:

Quote:

Science has never disproved either of these things
if you try to use science to disprove




Those two sentences make is crystal clear that he doesn't have even the most elementary conception of what science is, yet somehow he feels qualified to condemn it.

No research at all. Not even looking up the definition of the word or reading the Wiki articles, yet here's a whole thread dissing science based on his non-knowledge.

And then, AMAZINGLY, we get this gem:

Quote:

A lot of these people talk like they understand things much better than they do




The irony would be hilarious if it weren't so fucking sad. :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7639858 - 11/15/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have to agree with Diploid, anyone that knows the most basic part of science knows that science is:

UNBIASED AND COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE

It takes no side, it never seeks to prove or disprove. It only seeks to discover.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley


Edited by 2FiNiTe (11/15/07 01:46 PM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7639880 - 11/15/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Science has never disproved either of these things
if you try to use science to disprove





What? It is a valid statement, and one that is often overlooked. Clearly you don't make this false assumption and neither does he. No one is being sad or stupid IMO.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: daytripper23]
    #7639896 - 11/15/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It is a valid statement

It's as valid as "No one has ever pulled a watermellon out of their ass".

Only someone incapable of understanding that watermellon don't come out of people's ass would make such a moronic statement.

Science does not prove or disprove ANYTHING. That is at the foundation of science. Stating it with the smugness of an an authority only demonstrates ignorance.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7639906 - 11/15/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Really, I think alot of people think they can pull watermelons out of their asses :shrug:.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: daytripper23]
    #7639940 - 11/15/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

perhaps little tiny ones


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7640470 - 11/15/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

2FiNiTe said:
I have to agree with Diploid, anyone that knows the most basic part of science knows that science is:

UNBIASED AND COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE

It takes no side, it never seeks to prove or disprove. It only seeks to discover.



That describes the aims of science, but not necessarily scientists. Also, "completely objective" is a bit much to ask of it. If QM and relativity have taught us anything, it's that any observation you make is true only relative to the instrument used to make it, and relative the vantage point from which the observation is made. There is no privileged vantage point in the universe.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games *DELETED* [Re: Diploid]
    #7640870 - 11/15/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Tchan909

Reason for deletion: pointless



--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 06:01 PM)


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641012 - 11/15/07 06:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Diploid, I think you misunderstood the entire point of my original post. I'm not talking about the scientists, or science as a body of knowledge. I'm talking about those people - and there are millions of them - who do not fully understand science, its methods, or its execution, yet allow it to dictate their beliefs about the universe at large, known and unknown. They use science as an excuse to deny God. These people are deluded and lost.

This is called scientism, and it is a fundamental problem in modern thought. Check it out on wiki.

I'll try to be clearer from now on.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 06:17 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641063 - 11/15/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My beef isn't with that. My beef is with your misunderstanding of science to such an extent that you are doing the very thing you're condemning.

Anyone who uses science to deny God is a fool. On this, we agree because while science has plenty to say about the things it can see and touch and experiment on, it as NOTHING AT ALL to say about the things that cannot be materially observed. Those things are outside the scope of science and science doesn't care about them and it has nothing to say about them one way or another.

But that said, I don't know anyone who uses science to deny God. No one in this forum anyway, and I think the main thrust of your opening post was in that direction. Correct me if I'm wrong.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641080 - 11/15/07 06:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well hell's bell's, maybe I misunderstood something I read.

Like I said earlier, I was mainly responding to the conversation about chakras where their corporeality was coming into question. Somebody (I think it was you but I'm not sure) tried to conclusively deny it on the grounds that science has never confirmed them, and I took issue with that.

I've never had the impression that science, when applied correctly, has the authority to definitively prove or disprove anything. Most reasonably intelligent people can understand this. Unfortunately, not everyone does, and whether this post was created because of a misunderstanding or not my point stands.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 06:29 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641129 - 11/15/07 06:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

OK but lets deconstruct this a bit.

Science has NOTHING to say about detecting chakras in yourself. It can't because it has no way to reach into your mind and see what's going on, and take measurements, and compile statistics. If you say you sense your chakras, science just shrugs its shoulders and says nothing. :shrug:

BUT, if you say you can sense chakras in OTHER people like several in that thread say they can do, then science jumps up and says WAIT! That can be tested. I can blindfold you, lay someone on a table and walk you over to him to see if you can detect a chakra. Then I can walk you to another empty table and see if you can detect a chakra.

Then I repeat enough this times randomly that a statistically sufficient sample size is acquired. When that's done, I can look at the data and determine if your results correlate with random guessing or with real chakra detection.

Voila! Science now has something very definitive and useful and REAL to say about your claim to be able to detect chakras in others.

See the difference?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641177 - 11/15/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I just don't trust the scientific method to find a way of fairly determining such subjective phenomena as the ones discussed, like detecting other people's chakras. How do they know it's not possible in conditions other than the ones tested in? What if there's "psychic interference" or some such shit coming from people scrutinizing the healers so closely? Supposition, obviously, but we don't know, because science obviously doesn't know shit about chakras.

Spiritual phenomena like these are really hard to fairly test using scientific method.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 06:36 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641186 - 11/15/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What is subjective about detecting someone's chakra and saying so? Either you sense it or you don't.

How do they know it's not possible in conditions other than the ones tested in?

Again, haven't you been reading what I typed in that thread. These healers THEMSELVES said that the conditions ARE valid. It isn't the scientists who are making this up. The experiment is guided by what the healers say is valid testing.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641198 - 11/15/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I must have missed that part.

I still think it's premature to deny the veracity of spiritual phenomena as a whole because it often can't be reproduced in a lab.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 06:41 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641203 - 11/15/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

And the people claiming to be able to detect chakras in others in that thread were not at all wishywashy about it. They said very clearly and straight up that they can do this.

Are they liars?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641229 - 11/15/07 06:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

They're not liars, they're probably just full of shit up to their eyes.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641245 - 11/15/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, we finally agree! :razz:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641249 - 11/15/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Awesome, I was so tired of arguing. :laugh:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641258 - 11/15/07 06:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

/me passes Tchan909 teh bong. :bigweed:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641325 - 11/15/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
And the people claiming to be able to detect chakras in others in that thread were not at all wishywashy about it. They said very clearly and straight up that they can do this.
.
Are they liars?




The mind is a powerful tool....
If you concentrate on your hand to the point of feeling a tingling in your palm, you have felt something....
Is it "magical", kinda~.... 
Just because you had the power to sense something specific that you "created" as a sensation....
Is it a lie, not really....

The tingling feels cooler in the middle parts of your body tho~....    :grin:

Assigning meaning to it, giving it a name tag, and then pushing it as an absolute truth, that my friend is a double edged sword with a sharp handle....    :lipsrsealed:    :thumbup: 

But, the original poster in the other thread was setting forth an idea, for other people to try,
as a way to explain the phenomenon of the tingles one may get in different parts of their body -
as it relates to their emotional concentration levels from a visual stimulus....
Seemed like a simple enough experiment to try, but I bet not many people even tried....    :ohwell:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7641341 - 11/15/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone thirsty? I've got a dousing rod. :smile:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641369 - 11/15/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Don't get me started on dousing! :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641405 - 11/15/07 07:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

But, the original poster in the other thread was setting forth an idea, for other people to try

And I'm cool with that. How could I not be.

But in that thread there was also this post where it was said:

Quote:

All I know is that I've EXPERIENCED them and sensed them in others.




THAT (sensed them in others) is testable by science. There's a million bucks on the table for the first person who can do what that quote says with smug confidence.

If I knew I could do something for which there is a million dollar prize on the table, you wouldn't be able to see me because I'd be a blur on my way to the test. But somehow, mystic-heads who claim this amazing ability keep working every day until they die instead of grabbing the prize and retiring.

Why might that be?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641428 - 11/15/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are, honestly, right.

I just have a hard time imagining that these ideas are rooted entirely in fantasy. I think there might be something to it, but it's probably not quite tangible to most people (myself included) who would actually want to go in and get a million dollars for proving his powers in a laboratory.

And the others, as stated before, are most likely full of shit.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 07:27 PM)


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641589 - 11/15/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I can't argue that, nor defend the argument or statement (it wasn't my claim).... 

But, for me, the million dollars would not be a consideration....
I wouldn't tell anyone....   
If some kind of "super powers" were bestowed upon me, the last thing I would want to do is draw attention to myself - for quite a few solid reasons....

If someone could read minds for instance, don't you think the government would snatch you up and keep you.....?
You would be a definite and SERIOUS security risk, and I doubt that any part of the government would let you roam the streets with that kind of capability....
They would figure out how to exploit the power to the benefit of being some kind of weapon....
And/Or they would be testing the ba-jezuz out of you to see how it could be duplicated and mass produced (as a weapon)....
And quite possibly, they would try to find a way to counteract the ability, or make it so you no longer had it....

Then you have the psycho religious folks who would interpret your ability as being the Antichrist.....
And they would try to exterminate you to save the world....

I could think of many many more examples of what could happen, and if you put yourself in the mental shoes, so could you.....
Fame and fortune is fine, ***if*** that is what you are looking for....    :wink:
I could get buy without the fame (as I currently am :smirk: ), I could use a little more money (who couldn't?),
but having my own time and freedom to do what I want when I please, that my friend, is priceless to me....

I might stop out to Vegas to start my world adventure tour, but Randi would be keeping his money....    :thumbup:

Again, this is not a defense for anyone else's statements or claims, but how I see myself reacting to having a "extraordinary ability"....
Lots and lots of travel would be in my future....    :smile:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7641639 - 11/15/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If someone could read minds for instance, don't you think the government would snatch you up and keep you

This seems a little paranoid. Once you win the money, you'd be on CNN and every other media 24x7 and you'd have the money and fame to protect yourself legally and physically, not to mention leave the country for someplace safer immediately after the test.

Besides, the only people I'm referring to are the ones ACTIVELY CLAIMING to have these powers (see the post I linked ^^^ up there, and a zillion more if you use the search function, and a zillion more if you look on Goggle) so the "I'm afraid of the evil government" argument doesn't hold up. If they're afraid of the government, why do they have such a big mouth?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641672 - 11/15/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

BTW, Randi's isn't the only prize of this type on the table. There are many more in many countries around the world where the US government would not be able to reach you.

Here are three of them:

The Premanand Challenge (India):
http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/rules.htm

The Australian Skeptics Challenge (Australia):
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/challenge.htm

The Science and Rationalists' Challenge (India):
http://humanists.net/avijit/prabir/sra.htm


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Diploid]
    #7641859 - 11/15/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
This seems a little paranoid. Once you win the money, you'd be on CNN and every other media 24x7 and you'd have the money and fame to protect yourself legally and physically, not to mention leave the country for someplace safer immediately after the test.




Paranoid....?    Would I be paranoid to not go into a hungry lion's den for fear that it might eat me....?    :smirk:
You don't think that the government would put an end to a known security risk, immediately....???
It is not about being evil, it is the logically obvious thing for the government to do to protect the country's security....    :shrug:

Even in your own words here, you have stated some possible solutions in order to be in a "safer" way....
It is even safer to keep the ability to yourself, so you wouldn't have to worry about figuring out the "safer" way....
How would you consider that to equate to be "freedom" (which I consider to be priceless)....?
People would fear you, it is a natural response to someone different than you.... 
With fear, unfortunately, comes a lot of bad stuff....    :frown:
It is the nature of human nature in this reality....


People can spout off all they want too, no one really takes them seriously (except the people that want to believe)
- hence the never-ending battles here on the subject....
If you were plastered on CNN 24/7 as a proven fact of having special abilities, that is a little different than making an anonymous claim on the interweb....
When I say "put yourself in the mental shoes", I don't mean of people that are making claims, I mean the shoes of actually having a extraordinary ability....

And, I know you aren't referring to me....    But, I believe it would be the search for fame that would drive one to win Randi's money....
As there would be many more ways to get a million bux without drawing attention to the fact that you had an ability....    :thumbup:

If you REALLY had an ability, do you honestly think that you would run to Randi....?  Honestly now....?
I think that would be a HUGE mistake that you could never take back - literally....   
Without anyone knowing, you are as safe as what anyone else without a target on their back would be....    :shrug:


However, with all of this said, I understand your desire to put to rest the claims by testing those people's said claims....
I feel the same way....  :thumbup:    I would like to know if this stuff is possible, just like you....   
Put up or shut up....!    :lol:  Talk is cheap, I got ya~....    :wink:

Being in an Engineering field, all one has to know that something is possible for the clever ones to also find a way to do it -
even if not by doing it the same way as previously done - it doesn't necessarily need to be reverse Engineered to get a solution....
Just the fact of knowing that it is possible, someone else will figure it out....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7643376 - 11/16/07 09:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To thread, let me just throw in that science does indeededly prove something, and that is to prove hypothesis under well determined conditions.
The well determined conditions is that what limits science, and of course, that it doesn't question any meaning or assumption. That is done, by lets call it 'social science' or even 'philosophic science'. There, metaphysics, philosophy even psychology and theology resist.
They even can be used as tools, but under different conditions.

Science is mainly used as an instrument of 'approval', but it also can be used as an instrument of disproving but in very exclusive, limited and well controlled conditions with the mechanism of exclusion itself. (One can prove that there's no apple in a certain canister, for example. You have to prove that the canister is full of anything other, than an apple and that this is exclusive).

Just my thoughts, anyways, maybe I am off track totally :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7643394 - 11/16/07 09:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Word.

Human Scientists =

Mom and Dad already have most of it figured out...


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Re: scientists are like kids playing video games [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7643436 - 11/16/07 09:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
You are, honestly, right.

I just have a hard time imagining that these ideas are rooted entirely in fantasy. I think there might be something to it, but it's probably not quite tangible to most people (myself included) who would actually want to go in and get a million dollars for proving his powers in a laboratory.

And the others, as stated before, are most likely full of shit.




No one to my knowledge is staying that they don't exist. Yet they have not been proven to exist. Yet often when dealing with things that are difficult to prove people will misinterpret subjective experience to conform to their personal beliefs as in "What the thinker thinks the prover proves". This often creates beliefs that miss the mark by a far margin.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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