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The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity
    #7616591 -

After much consideration over the last 30 years of serious study, a deep contemplative life, an early life raised in a Jewish home with childhood religious training, and a graduate degree in theology from a reputable United Methodist seminary, I have come to the conclusion that the peculiar doctrine of the Holy Trinity is at root:
1) A concept created by a man named Tertullian out of three Names for Deity,
2) The conceptual source of Muhammed's regard for Christianity as polytheism,
3) The Pagan deification of a human being (monotheistic idolatry), and
4) A doctrine, unnecessary at best and deadly harmful at worst which supports the uncompromising imperialism of mainstream Christianity inherited from the politic of the Roman Empire.

If Unitarian Universalist Church doctrine was accepted (as described here by Wikipedia), as Christian doctrine, a significant settling effect might be felt through the Muslim world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism.

Meanwhile, the Muslim world would have to make a similar compromise. By affirming that "There is no God but God...," they universalize their faith stance while eliminating "...and Muhammed is His Prophet," they remove the Arab warrior mentality with all its warmongering attributes not to mention the highly specific idiosyncrasies of medieval Arab culture from the metaphysical core. This ought to be an equivalent value of 'de-deifying' Jesus, BOTH of whom could be retained as prophets of God.

These compromises might effectively reduce if not eliminate the 'ego' of both religions, leaving God, the Transcendent ONE as the focus.

Comments?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/10/07 10:09 AM)

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7616657 -

That's an interesting idea, and something that I probably never would have thought of in my entire life had you not brought it up. Thanks for that!

It seems like you have a pretty good argument, I just don't see the literalist dogmatists of either religion accepting a compromise such as that. That would mean admitting that doctrine is man made and that involve tearing apart a lot of rigid worldviews!

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7616783 -

Have you studied much G. I. Gurdjieff, Markos?

After 10 years I'm just starting to grok him.

I really think he had the inside dope and he gave the most direct pragmatic steps to "awakening" imo.

He said that religious / mystical theory isn't about "God out there" but is about our "Psyche in here"

i.e. The Holy Trinity is our Physical, Emotional, and Intellectual "bodies" or "centers"...

Thanks for getting me into Tolle btw, he's actually like Gurdjieff with the "body awareness" tip.
I won't go into it here, but E.J. Gold's books on Gurdjieff have helped me to understand why it works.

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: Middleman]
    #7616970 -

I have several of Gurdjieff's books, but I suppose I too need them to be explained to me. I find him inscrutible. Coicidentally, my best friend from the age of two phoned me tonight. He used to be into E.J. Gold and used to fly from Massachusetts to California to take seminars.

The tripartite nature of the 'Godhead' is archetypal and obvious in the Hindu trinity: Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva, less evident in the Kabbalistic: Kether-Chokma-Binah, and completely non-theistic in the Buddhist: Buddha-Dharma-Sangha. One could look to the ancient Egyptian: Osirus-Horus-Isis trinity as Father-Son-Holy Mother as well. Christian doctrine is yet another version of underlying archetypal motifs and, as the book of Ecclesiastes [The Preacher] says: "There are no new things under the sun."

Inner or outer are qualifiers and qualifiers do not apply to Ultimate Reality which transcends qualifiers of form. Being is formless regardless of how one conceptualizes it. Our concepts are NOT Reality, but archetypes are a concept that, like Plato's Eternal Ideas, are derivative of 'Mind' that seems close to the Transcendental ONE, like the "Nous" of Plotinus' scheme that is the first form emanating from The ONE.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7616978 -

You're right of course - dropping the Greek and Arab tribal particularities would never happen since those who cling to these cultural identities would never allow them to die in favor of the Universal Truth.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7616984 -

After much consideration over the last 30 years of serious study, a deep contemplative life, an early life raised in a Jewish home with childhood religious training, and a graduate degree in theology from a reputable United Methodist seminary, I have come to the conclusion that the peculiar doctrine of the Holy Trinity is at root:

So you expect us to believe what you are saying based on argument from authority:

"Argument From Authority (Appeal to Authority)
The claim that the speaker is an expert, and so should be trusted.
There are degrees and areas of expertise. The speaker is actually claiming to be more expert, in the relevant subject area, than anyone else in the room. ...."


1) A concept created by a man named Tertullian out of three Names for Deity,

The Trinity is scriptural and that is why it is believed, not because one man has said something in the past.


2) The conceptual source of Muhammed's regard for Christianity as polytheism,

Who cares what Muhammed's regard Christians as? They are the ones with the false god.


3) The Pagan deification of a human being (monotheistic idolatry), and
4) A doctrine, unnecessary at best and deadly harmful at worst which supports the uncompromising imperialism of mainstream Christianity inherited from the politic of the Roman Empire.

You just keep attacking the person of Christ and His Diety something no Christian does. Also Christianity has nothing to do with imperialism. Where in scripture are Christians told to be imperialists? No where.


If Unitarian Universalist Church doctrine was accepted (as described here by Wikipedia), as Christian doctrine, a significant settling effect might be felt through the Muslim world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism.

Universalist doctrine is opposed to scripture and therefore will never be accepted as true doctrine. Oh I forgot, you have on numerous occasions attacked the truthfulness and trustworthiness of scripture. No wonder why you think doctrine is just a matter of negotiation and tweaking you have no foundation for any of your doctrines.


Meanwhile, the Muslim world would have to make a similar compromise. By affirming that "There is no God but God...," they universalize their faith stance while eliminating "...and Muhammed is His Prophet," they remove the Arab warrior mentality with all its warmongering attributes not to mention the highly specific idiosyncrasies of medieval Arab culture from the metaphysical core. This ought to be an equivalent value of 'de-deifying' Jesus, BOTH of whom could be retainedas prophets of God.

These compromises might effectively reduce if not eliminate the 'ego' of both religions, leaving God, the Transcendent ONE as the focus.

Comments?

The occult doctrine of the anti-Trinitarian is not supported in any way by scripture. This doctrine attacks at the very roots of the Christian faith. You just can't remake Christian doctrine to fit what you think it SHOULD be.

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #7617157 -

Too bad religious ideologies can't sit down and have a quiet compromise to sort these things out.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7617158 -

Personally, I believe in the Trinity. Well, sort of. In the second part, I put the Christ archetype rather than the individual person Yeshua bar Yoseph. I also have a special affection for the third part of the trinity. I have a tattoo on my chest of a dove surrounded by flames. Some people just think of it as a symbol of peace. But for me, it is meant to represent The Holy Spirit/Sophia/Shekhinah -- the immanent, feminine, indwelling presence of God.

Of course, while I believe God is three, I also believe God is One, as are we all. But as a Kabbalist, I also think of God as ten. In fact, God has an infinite number of manifestations, and I think monotheistic religions tend to forget that, and it turns into a juvenile ego game about whose god is the true God(as seen in a particular individual in this thread).

So on the one hand, I can see how the doctrine of the Trinity could be harmful to our relationship with other monotheistic faiths, on the other hand, I think maybe monotheism may be part of the problem.


--------------------

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: Silversoul]
    #7617386 -

But but but....scripture doesn't agree with you.



So there.

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: Silversoul]
    #7618264 -

After the Hatha Yoga, when I sit to meditate, I first cross myself Catholic style in the Names of the Father, Son and Holy Mother. Firstly, I am affirming the Masculine-Feminine (not male-female) aspects of Deity (as well as the spiritually Hermaphroditic [Hermes+Aphrodite, masuline-feminine archetypes in conjunction] Son. Secondly, I am symbolically reminding me not to become lost in an impersonal Absolute, which is less than personal. The Absolute is trans-personal. Surely, we as beings with personality do not issue forth from Absolute Being which is less than personal.

However, I remember the St. Joseph Baltimore catechism books that my Catholic friend Paul grew up with. I bought a couple when I was in adult catechism. There were numerous black, white and red colored diagrams of a bearded God-the-Father, a triangular nimbus behind his head perhaps, or a triangle with the bearded Father, a lamb and a dove, each in its own circle, with connecting pathways between them and a common Center - all representing the construct of the three emerging from and entering into the ONE. Duality always emerges from unity in archetypal representations, with a mediating factor. Hell, the Orthodox and the Catholics went to war over the filioque - the theological argument as to whether the Father generates the Son from whom proceeds the Holy Spirit (Orthodox) or whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son (Catholic). WAR! Can you f**king believe that people would go to war and murder each other over a construct, an intellectual construct, a model, a f**kin' fiction?! Human beings are simultaneously capable of high illuminative states, and the lowest egoistic and instinctual modes of existence. No human being can describe with words the Essence of the Godhead/Ultimate Reality! This is why Paul said that in his (portrayed as "a man" other than himself) mystical ascent:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know — God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows — was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell." - 2 Corinthians 12

The mystical apperception of the ONE is the Experience of All-at-Once. It is transrational, and as such cannot be expressed with linear words pronounced in linear time. The word for this is ineffable. The after-the-fact explication of mystical encounter with the ONE, with God, is usually made through the filters of personal psychologies and culture. It may be expressed theistically or nontheistically. These two expressions can be seen in monotheistic religions and monistic religions respectively, but both partake of what Mircea Eliade called "the Sacred." I do not think it is monotheisim per se that is the problem so long as its proponents are sophisticated enough NOT to take monotheism's God as the projection of their culture's collective psyche. Then we get an Allah who is the alleged personality of the prophet Muhammed expanded to infinite proportions. Likewise for the YHVH of the Jews, and then again the Father of Christianity (which is better rendered as Abwoon in Aramaic, meaning Cosmic Mother-Father).

If anything, it is the pathological patriarchy of monotheistic faiths that is at root the problem. Unbalanced males produce unbalanced ideas including unbalanced religious ideas. The Warrior and King archetypes are not balanced with Lover and Magician archetypes, and the entire male archetypal constellation is unintegrated with feminine archetypes. It is not the archetypal masculine in conjunction with the archetypal feminine that has produced religious and political ideologies and regimes. Humans can land on the moon, but our undoing will be a result of unleashing artificial suns on one another - both through flaming phallic projectiles. What is more dangerous, the masculine minds that contrived the H-bomb or the masculine minds that contrived the religious ideologies for which the H-bombs will be unleashed? Armageddon seems a lot more the result of pathologically obsessive religious ideology plus pathological politics, than it does with the devil as a metaphysical construct. The evil resides in the ideas of men.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7618298 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
After much consideration over the last 30 years of serious study, a deep contemplative life, an early life raised in a Jewish home with childhood religious training, and a graduate degree in theology from a reputable United Methodist seminary, I have come to the conclusion that the peculiar doctrine of the Holy Trinity is at root:
1)  A concept created by a man named Tertullian out of three Names for Deity,
2)  The conceptual source of Muhammed's regard for Christianity as polytheism,
3)  The Pagan deification of a human being (monotheistic idolatry), and
4)  A doctrine, unnecessary at best and deadly harmful at worst which supports the uncompromising imperialism of mainstream Christianity inherited from the politic of the Roman Empire.

If Unitarian Universalist Church doctrine was accepted (as described here by Wikipedia), as Christian doctrine, a significant settling effect might be felt through the Muslim world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism.

Meanwhile, the Muslim world would have to make a similar compromise. By affirming that "There is no God but God...," they universalize their faith stance while eliminating "...and Muhammed is His Prophet," they remove the Arab warrior mentality with all its warmongering attributes not to mention the highly specific idiosyncrasies of medieval Arab culture from the metaphysical core. This ought to be an equivalent value of 'de-deifying' Jesus, BOTH of whom could be retained as prophets of God.

These compromises might effectively reduce if not eliminate the 'ego' of both religions, leaving God, the Transcendent ONE as the focus.

Comments?


My comment is that what you say is obvious (to us) and that there ain't a rats ass chance in hell that anyone who needs to see this would bother to look and then think about it.:hellfire:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: Icelander]
    #7621592 -

"My comment is that what you say is obvious (to us) and that there ain't a rats ass chance in hell that anyone who needs to see this would bother to look and then think about it."

Well, it was merely a rough plan for world peace, aimed at the core conceptual addictions of Christianity and Islam. The addictions are, as you so colorfully illustrated, not gonna be broken. Culural-religious 'individuality' is an almost hilarious delusion and cultural individuality of any kind means 'us and them.' Such subject-object differences fueled with unconscious emotion results in hatred.

I suppose that in my attack of 'mere conceptualization,' both Christians and Muslims would accuse me of attempting to turn them Buddhist. To that I'd say "No" in terms of their religions, and "Yes" in terms of Buddhist psychology.
I used to be opposed to Albert Ellis' Rational Emotive Therapy which said that if your beliefs make you unhappy, throw out your beliefs. That was because I too identified myself, religiously, with certain thoughts, ideas, concepts AS IF they were equivalent to actually having 'God' within me. They were 'merely' thoughts about God, and not the Transcendental Reality acting through me.
Maybe that notion was put in me through Anselm who said that the 'idea of God' was possible because of God's influence. Whatever. Everything is derivative of Ultimate Reality, why put particular value on certain ideas? More egoistic-mind glomming on to 'individual' ideas. The thing is, they are not individual or unique.

The egoistic-mind is the fool. It tries to gain authority and superiority from sources which are as ephemeral and illusory as itself, albeit usually more persistent illusions like scriptural authority, traditions of men, the subjective experiences of others held on faith, etc. Well, even my dream-ego fears dream-monsters, while I'm dreaming. Lucid dreams are few and far between, but even lucid dreams don't inform my waking-ego that equally, there is nothing to fear (except, perhaps, fear itself).

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7621610 -


The egoistic-mind is the fool. It tries to gain authority and superiority from sources which are as ephemeral and illusory as itself, albeit usually more persistent illusions like scriptural authority, traditions of men, the subjective experiences of others held on faith, etc. Well, even my dream-ego fears dream-monsters, while I'm dreaming. Lucid dreams are few and far between, but even lucid dreams don't inform my waking-ego that equally, there is nothing to fear (except, perhaps, fear itself).


Great post Markos. We seem to be moving toward each other these days.

Your quote above is what stimulated my move towards a more through investigation of my impending death and the matrix of my cultural programming. I think this will be the work of the final stage of my life. To what result I do not know for sure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: Icelander]
    #7621657 -

Kenosis - self-emptying. Become as an empty clay vessel.

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." - 2 Corinthians 4:7

This WAY, the Tao, the Way, animates our actions and directly assumes It's identity in and through us.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." - John 3:30

The ego dethroned and withered away as the center of one's identity, the Tao, the Logos, the Christ, the Way, Being animates us. WE become Christ incarnate -Theosis, Henosis, Apocatastasis!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7621691 -

This WAY, the Tao, the Way, animates our actions and directly assumes It's identity in and through us.


This is what I have come to rationally believe. The next step is to "know" it. To know it is to act and that is real freedom. IMO this is the only freedom we really have.

Thank you for one of those rare posts that I can really relate to.:heart::monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/11/07 11:31 AM)

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: Icelander]
    #7621804 -

"This is what I have come to rationally believe. The next step is to 'know' it. To know it is to act and that is real freedom. IMO this is the only freedom we really have."

Yes. Belief should lead to Knowledge, immediate, intuitive apperception - Gnosis. The Psychic level is subsumed in, and transcended by the Spiritual level which contains all levels in One.

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7622108 -

I'm not talking about any knowledge. I'm talking about the knowledge referred to in your thread.

Of course I can't know but I have been on this so called search for truth my whole life it seems, and it's all led to the realization that I can't know truth and I can't know myself and what I thought was myself was only a mental projection on the screen of my mind. It feels somehow like the end of the line. It's not my discovery, this information has been around throughout history. I just needed enough years and experience for the realization to sink into my bones. No more thinking needs to be done really as all roads lead to the center and the center is nowhere and everywhere. Now it's, as I stated, a matter of feeling this truth in a way that acting on it is a natural or automatic thing. I do not know if this can even be accomplished, but I feel this will be the final chaper in my search. But what do I know?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/11/07 02:56 PM)

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7622146 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
This WAY, the Tao, the Way, animates our actions and directly assumes It's identity in and through us.



This reminds me of Hegel, and his whole world spirit thing...

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622328 -

IMO Taoism contains a perfect philosophy. Or maybe I should say Taoism as I understand it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/11/07 02:58 PM)

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Re: The Holy Trinity is the Occult Doctrine Behind Islamic Hatred of Christianity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7622337 -

NiamhNyx said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
This WAY, the Tao, the Way, animates our actions and directly assumes It's identity in and through us.



This reminds me of Hegel, and his whole world spirit thing...


Yeah, well, that's kind of a reversal inasmuch as all of history is the way in which God comes to consciousness. For some people it might lend identity being 'a member of the [mystical] Body of Christ,' but that identity, as any identity in form, is egoic and hence transitory. It might work for some people that God is my Creator, Preserver and Destroyer, and that it was nice that God brought me into conscious existence, but for what? Are we here to simply become aware of ourselves as transient self-conscious beings, or are we here to learn to shed our illusory identification with transient beinghood and to Realize that we are co-extensive with Ultimate Being?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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