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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million
#7581770 - 10/31/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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By Jon Hurdle
BALTIMORE (Reuters) - A jury on Wednesday ordered an anti-gay Kansas church to pay $10.9 million in damages to relatives of a U.S. Marine who died in Iraq after church members cheered his death at his funeral.
Church members said Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder's death was God's punishment of America for tolerating homosexuality, and they attended his 2006 funeral in Maryland with signs saying "You're going to hell" and "God hates you."
The federal jury determined the Westboro Baptist Church, based in Topeka, and three of its principals invaded the privacy of the dead man's family and inflicted emotional distress.
Albert Snyder, the Marine's father, testified that his son was not gay, but the church targeted the military as a symbol of America's tolerance of gays. Matthew Snyder died in combat in Iraq in March 2006.
The jury awarded Snyder's family $2.9 million in compensatory damages plus $8 million in punitive damages in the first civil suit against the church, which has demonstrated at some 300 military funerals the past two years.
The lawsuit said church Web sites vilified U.S. soldiers, accusing them of being indoctrinated by "fag propaganda."
"I hope it's enough to deter them from doing this to other families. It was not about the money. It was about getting them to stop," said Snyder, of York, Pennsylvania.
The church, which is unaffiliated with any major denomination, is headed by Rev. Fred Phelps, who has led a campaign against homosexuality for years. Most of the estimated 70 members of the church belong to his extended family.
"It will take the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals a few minutes to reverse this silly thing," Phelps said.
His daughter and co-defendant, Shirley Phelps-Roper, vowed to continue protesting military funerals and called the court's decision a blow against free speech.
Outside court on Wednesday, Phelps and his children waved placards with slogans such as "Pray for more dead kids" and "God hates fag enablers," while passing drivers and pedestrians shouted abuse at them.
Defense attorney Jonathan Katz urged jurors not to award punitive damages because the $2.9 million in compensatory damages was already three times the defendants' net worth.
"It's enough already to bankrupt them and financially destroy them," Katz said.
Craig Trebilcock, an attorney for Snyder, said jurors should award sufficient punitive damages to deter Westboro from repeating its actions.
reuters.com
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
#7581808 - 10/31/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would like to say I like this, but I don't. I would, however, not weep if some disaffected youth were to blow all of those assholes to smithereens instead of shooting up the football team.
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: zappaisgod]
#7581946 - 10/31/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wouldn't shed any tears about anything bad happening to those loons, either.
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vaportrail
upandaway



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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Le_Canard]
#7582072 - 10/31/07 07:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't want to believe a word of that
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: zappaisgod]
#7582226 - 10/31/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I would like to say I like this, but I don't. I would, however, not weep if some disaffected youth were to blow all of those assholes to smithereens instead of shooting up the football team.
Seriously. What happened to the Hell's Angels who were keeping this stuff under wraps?
Edit: Damn, did I just agree with zappa?
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Edited by Silversoul (10/31/07 08:36 PM)
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
#7582262 - 10/31/07 08:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's a ridiculous award. In general, I think they should be allowed to protest on public property, but since this article doesn't say shit about what they actually did, I'll assume the wost (screaming, trespassing, et cet)
But that amount of money is insane- totally nuts.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
#7582315 - 10/31/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's more detail:
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BALTIMORE (Map, News) - Ordered to pay nearly $11 million in damages, members of the Westboro Baptist Church smiled and calmly walked out of the courtroom.
Outside, they sang "Happy Birthday," to defendant Shirley Phelps-Roper, who turned 50 on Wednesday, and promised to continue carrying signs that read "Thank God for dead soldiers" and "God hates fags" at military funerals.
"Absolutely, don't you understand this was an act in futility," Phelps-Roper said when asked if the church planned to continue picketing.
Phelps-Roper said church members were creating a new sign following the award that reads "Thank God for $10.9 million," adding "America is doomed, stay tuned."
The group may also be spending more time in court.
Albert Snyder, who sued the Topeka, Kan., church following a protest at the funeral of his son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, said he would "follow them until the day I die," to stop the group from protesting at other funerals.
Snyder said he hoped other families would consider suing following the verdict.
"The goal wasn't about the money, it was to set a precedent so other people could do the same thing," Snyder said.
Church members believe that U.S. deaths in the war in Iraq are punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality and they are entitled to protest at funerals under the First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of speech and religion.
A number of states have passed laws regarding funeral protests, and Congress has passed a law prohibiting such protests at federal cemeteries, but the Maryland lawsuit is believed to be the first filed by the family of a fallen serviceman.
Snyder's suit named the church, Phelps-Roper, her sister Rebekah Phelps-Davis and father Fred Phelps, the church's founder. Snyder claimed the protests intruded upon what should have been a private ceremony and sullied his memory of the event.
Plaintiffs attorney Craig Trebilcock said afterward that "this is Judgment Day for the Westboro Baptist Church."
"They're always talking about other people's Judgment Day. Well, this is theirs," the attorney said.
The jury awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages and $8 million in punitive damages, $6 million for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress.
Plaintiff's attorney Sean Summers said he will tirelessly seek payment of the award.
"We will chase them forever if it takes that long," Summers said.
Before the jury began deliberating the size of punitive damages, U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett noted the size of the compensatory award "far exceeds the net worth of the defendants," according to financial statements filed with the court.
Snyder sobbed when he heard the first verdict, while members of the church greeted the news with tightlipped smiles.
Attorneys for the church said in closing arguments Tuesday that the burial was a public event and that even abhorrent points of view are protected by the First Amendment.
In his closing arguments during the punitive damages phase, Trebilcock described church members as bullies who "seek out those among us who are at the weakest point in our lives."
"That's why they've gotten away with it until this point," the attorney said, adding that grieving families were too weak to fight back "until this man."
Defense lawyer Jonathan Katz reminded jurors that punitive damages are designed to deter future conduct, but not bankrupt or financially destroy.
It was unclear if the plaintiffs will be able to collect the damages awarded.
Katz said the church has about 75 members and is funded by tithing. The defense attorney said the assets of the church and the three defendants are less than a million dollars and the compensatory award is about three times the defendants' net worth, mainly in homes, cars and retirement accounts.
In his rebuttal, Trebilcock said it was up to jurors to decide the truthfulness of the financial documents, noting the documents show Phelps-Davis has $306 in the bank.
Trebilcock noted Phelps-Davis is a practicing attorney and pointed to testimony by the defendants showing how much they traveled to spread their message.
"Rebekah Phelps-Davis has $306? She must be using Priceline.com. It doesn't make any sense."
The attorney urged jurors to determine an amount "that says don't do this in Maryland again. Do not bring your circus of hate to Maryland again."
Earlier, church members staged a demonstration outside the federal courthouse, which is located on a busy thoroughfare a few blocks west of Baltimore's Inner Harbor, while passing motorists honked and shouted insults.
Phelps held a sign reading "God is your enemy," while Phelps-Roper stood on an American flag while carrying a sign that read "God hates fag enablers." Members of the group also sang "God Hates America,"' to the tune of "God Bless America."
Ed Mueller, who on Thursday will become executive director of Patriot Guard Riders, a group of motorcyclists that attends military funerals and blocks from view any protesters, said the verdict was "outstanding."
"I would hope that every other Gold Star family that has to suffer through Westboro Baptist Church protests takes advantage of this ruling," Mueller said.
Craig Smith, director of Center for First Amendment Studies at California State University, Long Beach, said the church members had a legitimate permit to demonstrate on a public street and therefore engaged in protected speech.
The appeal will be drawn out because of the emotional issues involved, Smith said.
"The judgment is apparently based on infliction of emotional damage as opposed to not having the right to protest," he said.
examiner.com
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
#7582482 - 10/31/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think thats good. That kind of stuff cant be tolerated. If someone disrespected someone in my familys funeral like that, i would want them destroyed in any way possible. That was a sacred moment, that those people tried to ruin, you cant put a price on that.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
#7582525 - 10/31/07 09:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The federal jury determined the Westboro Baptist Church, based in Topeka, and three of its principals invaded the privacy of the dead man's family and inflicted emotional distress.
Thank God that there now finally is precedent that you can't picket funerals like that.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Asante]
#7582542 - 10/31/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have mixed feelings about this.
On the one hand, it doesn't bug me one bit that this bunch of bigots lost the legal case, but on the other hand, the First Amendment protects all speech, including ugly speech.
That's the whole point of the First Amendment.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
#7582551 - 10/31/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I have mixed feelings about this.
On the one hand, it doesn't bug me one bit that this bunch of bigots lost the legal case, but on the other hand, the First Amendment covers all speech, including ugly speech.
That's the whole point of the First Amendment.
Ya, I'm generally a big first amendment proponent, but I wonder to what extent this is like yelling fire in a crowded theater. It might qualify as harassment, considering these protests are directed at private individuals, not public figures.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
#7582564 - 10/31/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Exactly. A funeral is not the time and place to promote your agenda by slandering the deceased. They can (ab)use the media all they want, but a funeral isn't the time or place.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Asante]
#7582726 - 11/01/07 12:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: Exactly. A funeral is not the time and place to promote your agenda by slandering the deceased. They can (ab)use the media all they want, but a funeral isn't the time or place.
well forget about time and place... I think it just matters whether they interfered with the funeral while it was going on, and/or on land they didn't have proper access to. I have no problem with these people standing on the sidewalk talking at normal levels, and having their signs.
I do have a problem with them yelling over the speakers at the funeral.
Either way (and I don't know what they did due to bad reporting) the issue is this is an insane amount of money. The fact that you can be maime someone as a drunk doctor and they can get economic damages plus a few hundred k in some states, yet you can get this amount for messing up a funeral is dumb.
I don't believe their needs to be equality between all jury awards, cuz thats imposible, but this is too much money by any rational measure
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
#7582732 - 11/01/07 12:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Craig Smith, director of Center for First Amendment Studies at California State University, Long Beach, said the church members had a legitimate permit to demonstrate on a public street and therefore engaged in protected speech.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
#7582735 - 11/01/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah, but you can still invade someone's privacy despite having a permit. They were allowed their speech, and the funeral was allowed to proceed. As long as they didn't substantially interfere w/ the funeral, I think this is wrong.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
#7582736 - 11/01/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well fuck me. That sucks. Where the fuck were the Hell's Angels when you needed them?
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
#7582741 - 11/01/07 12:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is supposed to be the Westboro Baptist Church Choir... Found on youtube while searching for information about this case. Weird... Seems really unchristian "god hate's the world" and "its too late to change his (god) mind" wtf? I hope this is a joke.
Edited by johnm214 (11/01/07 12:50 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
#7582792 - 11/01/07 01:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: I hope this is a joke.
It's not, but they are.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
#7582987 - 11/01/07 05:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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They deserve to lose some money, but not that much.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
#7583344 - 11/01/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Well fuck me. That sucks. Where the fuck were the Hell's Angels when you needed them?
You are confusing the hell's angels with the patriot guard.http://www.patriotguard.org/
No one needs the hells angels, unless you are looking to get chain whipped and gang raped.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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