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Guilt
    #7291487 -

inherent or learned?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7291494 -

Learned :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7291495 -

Learned. The hard-wiring that guilt programming plugs in to is our drive towards survival. A helpless infant quickly learns which behaviors are pleasing and which are not, and attempts to adjust accordingly. They usually do not have the self-discipline necessary to do so all the time, and then they experience guilt.

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Re: Guilt [Re: Veritas]
    #7291502 -

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Guilt [Re: Icelander]
    #7291508 -

The weirdest thing is feeling guilty to yourself. Like, 'I really let myself down.' This has to be an effect of socialization because it would be about the most useless thing for an infant to be hard-wired with.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Guilt [Re: Lion]
    #7291513 -

"When I hear the word culture I reach for my revolver.":tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7291753 -

Learned for sure. I can't believe that you didn't already know that. You should be ashamed.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Guilt [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7291768 -

:nono:  :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7291923 -

:lame:


--------------------

-::- Moonglue's Mushroom Tea -::-Moonglue's Cannabis Chocolate Peanutbutter Toasties-::-

Quitting Weed FAQ

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Re: Guilt [Re: Veritas]
    #7292954 -

Veritas said:
Learned. The hard-wiring that guilt programming plugs in to is our drive towards survival. A helpless infant quickly learns which behaviors are pleasing and which are not, and attempts to adjust accordingly. They usually do not have the self-discipline necessary to do so all the time, and then they experience guilt.


So if we assume that your philosophy on the cause of guilt, then how do you figure that it is learned?

If it is an instinctual response to strive for pleasing behavior, how do you know that the feelings associated with performing inappropriately are not?

Sounds to me like you are confusing the behavior with the response.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7293080 -

Guilt is a useless waste of our personal power. It is a feeling of self indulgence that we use to try to atone for judgments we render upon ourselves. It is completely learned self defeating, dysfunctional behavior. It is no more than self importance.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7293131 -

Guilt is not something we're born with, it's something we learn.
Guilt is self destructive and none of us are born with a self-destructive program.
Otherwise, our self-preservation instinct would be meaningless.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7293434 -

It is learned when our caregivers express disapproval of our natural behaviors. We primitively interpret this disapproval as a risk of being abandoned, and react emotionally as though our life is threatened. Once we've reached young adulthood, we have internalized this set of "rules," and will react with extreme fear when we break those rules.

I say that guilt is learned because what we want is to survive, not to behave correctly. When our caregivers teach us to associate the two, we learn to generate guilt. If you've ever spent time around young children, you would know that they do not feel guilty about their natural behaviors prior to being exposed to disapproval.

I've cared for children my entire life, beginning with my younger brother (I was 3 1/2 when he was born), and I've seen a broad range of learned guilt reactions. I've met toddlers who seemed to feel guilty about all of their normal, exploring, messy behaviors. Their parents had extremely tidy homes, with everything locked up and put away. It was clear that these children had been exposed to excessive parental disapproval.

On the other hand, my own boys were allowed to explore my house freely, and encouraged to make noise, create messes, climb over the furniture, look in cabinets, etc. Rather than protect the house from the kids, I was pro-active in protecting the kids from any dangerous objects in the house. In my own, admittedly biased, judgment, they have an appropriate amount of self-discipline (the up-side of guilt) and seem to reserve guilt for major infractions.

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7294026 -

Senor_Doobie said:
inherent or learned?


Both... I'm tired of scummy postmodernists thinking there is some drastic dichotomy between nature and nurture. If there was not some sort of pre-wired neural circuitry to produce the emotion we call guilt, it could not exist at all - but that does not mean it is uneffected by our experience. Our mind cannot develop without a context.

Edited by MushmanTheManic (08/14/07 01:54 PM)

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Re: Guilt [Re: Veritas]
    #7294139 -

Veritas said:
It is learned when our caregivers express disapproval of our natural behaviors. We primitively interpret this disapproval as a risk of being abandoned, and react emotionally as though our life is threatened. Once we've reached young adulthood, we have internalized this set of "rules," and will react with extreme fear when we break those rules.

I say that guilt is learned because what we want is to survive, not to behave correctly. When our caregivers teach us to associate the two, we learn to generate guilt. If you've ever spent time around young children, you would know that they do not feel guilty about their natural behaviors prior to being exposed to disapproval.

I've cared for children my entire life, beginning with my younger brother (I was 3 1/2 when he was born), and I've seen a broad range of learned guilt reactions. I've met toddlers who seemed to feel guilty about all of their normal, exploring, messy behaviors. Their parents had extremely tidy homes, with everything locked up and put away. It was clear that these children had been exposed to excessive parental disapproval.

On the other hand, my own boys were allowed to explore my house freely, and encouraged to make noise, create messes, climb over the furniture, look in cabinets, etc. Rather than protect the house from the kids, I was pro-active in protecting the kids from any dangerous objects in the house. In my own, admittedly biased, judgment, they have an appropriate amount of self-discipline (the up-side of guilt) and seem to reserve guilt for major infractions.


I agree that you do not feel guilty before you have learned what behavior is acceptable and which is not and that those lessons are learned differently by different people.

But I fail to see how this proves that an emotional response to such behavior is learned. That emotional response is how I would define guilt.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Edited by Senor_Doobie (08/14/07 02:18 PM)

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Re: Guilt [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7294168 -

Quote:
guilt /gɪlt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gilt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, esp. against moral or penal law; culpability: He admitted his guilt.
2. a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.
3. conduct involving the commission of such crimes, wrongs, etc.: to live a life of guilt.


You are referring to two different things.
The feeling is real. The concept is fake, imprinted. We are talking here about the latter.
As you can even from the definition, it refers to committing offense, wrongs, crimes and like. All these are fabricated concepts. They are not real.
What was offensive let's say 100 years ago now is accepted and viewed as "normal". The same thing applies to the concept of bad or crime.
Guilt is socially imprinted and it it is also regulated by the "mass". Therefore it is learned. People feel guilty because they're taught that they should feel guilty.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7294169 -

You seem to be contradicting yourself.  You said:

"I agree that you do not feel guilty before you have learned what behavior is acceptable"

and then said:

"But I fail to see how this proves that an emotional response to such behavior is learned."

If you don't have an emotional response, you do not feel guilty.  If you do not feel guilty, you do not have an emotional response.  :confused:  This is what I said, and you agreed with me.

The feeling (emotion) is a new-brain interpretation of our old-brain fear response.  We associate this fear response with the learned thought that we have done something wrong, and then we experience guilt.

Am I misunderstanding your distinction between a feeling and an emotion?  :confused:

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7294394 -

I think guilt is learned. I'm not so sure about regret.

I think one can do something, especially in the heat of a strong emotion, and later wish he hadn't done it without necessarily feeling guilt.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Guilt [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7295176 -

You highlighted all the wrong words. The only definition that we are dealing with here is the second one.

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

2. a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.






That is all I am referring to.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: Guilt [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #7295203 -

Yes and I already explained that too.
offense, crime, wrong are socially regulated. A group of people "decide" what's right/wrong crime and offense.
Ohhh and yes, responsibility is also a social imprint.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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