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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Right speech
    #6859653 -

Personally, I've found this to be one of the most difficult parts of the Eightfold Path, and one of the great obstacles to my own spiritual growth. I don't think I'm a particularly malicious person, but gossip and other negative speech just seem to come so naturally, and even when I try to avoid initiating it, I find myself getting dragged into it by others. It seems so harmless, but it does a great amount of psychic damage to us by generating negativity in our consciousness. Has anyone else had this problem and had success in overcoming it?


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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #6859747 -

Thich Nhat Hanh says you can't touch red ink without staining your hands.

I generally tend to not associate with people who talk about mundane things, all the time incessantly.... family guy this and beer that and this is how drunk i got and etc

they are kind of comedy central heads if you will, the borg got to them so to speak

yet it seems worse to deny them company at all should you find yourself in it

really right speech is quite difficult because wrong speech includes talking about sports, politics, wars, guns, beers, cars, and a lot of other things.

I clearly understand hwy, because it's all pointless and does not lead to an establishment of love or positive feelings, perhaps the worst and most heinous of all politics (to me)

the only thing you can do is resonate in your heart and wait to find a partner, then you should be able to engage in right speech


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Right speech [Re: leery11]
    #6859775 -

Quote:
really right speech is quite difficult because wrong speech includes talking about sports, politics, wars, guns, beers, cars, and a lot of other things.


I disagree. Wrong speech is simply speaking negatively of others and/or yourself. What you're talking about there is simply topics that you personally prefer not to talk about.


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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #6859858 -

I struggle with gossip as well. It's not something that I've overcome in a terminal sense; it's something I have to overcome every day.

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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #6859859 -

When there is negative speech I find myself moving into my surfer mentality where I just kind of laugh and go along with it and try to point out positives about the individual in question. It is not very difficult not to talk negatively about people, but the temptation is strongest when you really feel the giggle behind it all.


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #6859878 -

Right speech for me is simply speaking the truth. The subject matter is important of course but if your speaking truthfully about the subject , the subject doest matter. Engaging in judgment about others, trying to impose your views on someone, pointing out the wrongs someone committed in a malicious manner, dragging out disagreements and such are in my view wrong. So long as your truthfully trying to help the situation without unbalancing someone is right to me. Gossip is largely talking negatively about someone who isn't around, which in it self is wrong speech, and unbalances yourself. If someone does something wrong, there is always a way to point this out to the person without creating conflict.
Most of the time if I'm with someone that like to hear themselves speak about whatever is on their mind, so long as I'm present and balanced there isn't much I have to say. Of course this doesn't mean i don't talk, but largely if the subject matter is of no importance just staying mindful of my deeper self the conversation leads itself and whatever response is necessary seems to arise of its own accord.

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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #6859914 -

Silversoul said:
Quote:
really right speech is quite difficult because wrong speech includes talking about sports, politics, wars, guns, beers, cars, and a lot of other things.


I disagree. Wrong speech is simply speaking negatively of others and/or yourself. What you're talking about there is simply topics that you personally prefer not to talk about.


i spoke of them because i saw them tallied in a suttra on e-sangha.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #6859951 -

It certainly can be difficult. It's our conditioned way of speaking. Once you bring mindfulness to your speech though, it becomes painfully obvious (usually) when you're engaging in 'wrong' speech. To me, that consists mainly of speaking of other's faults and of praising self at the expense of others (arrogance in other words).


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Right speech [Re: leery11]
    #6859967 -

leery11 said:
I generally tend to not associate with people who talk about mundane things, all the time incessantly.... family guy this and beer that and this is how drunk i got and etc

they are kind of comedy central heads if you will, the borg got to them so to speak


You seem like an open person, so I feel comfortable suggesting to you that this is wrong speech right here. I think wrong speech consists of promoting the sense of separateness and division, and that is what I read here. Kind of an 'us' and 'them' thing.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Right speech [Re: dblaney]
    #6860036 -

i agree with you
maybe that makes me a hypocrite in some ways?

from the level of love it doesn't matter if one talks about family guy or bowel movements or sings praises to Shiva

but in the level of samsara these things matter immensely and only the latter is a vehicle out of suffering....... i'm working on the judging without judging thing, noticing and letting it go


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Right speech [Re: leery11]
    #6860703 -

I dig this thread.

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Re: Right speech [Re: Karmatron]
    #6860813 -

Perhaps I should also contribute to the original topic...
Anyhoo, yeah I find speech to be one of the most difficult aspects of my behaviour to control. Perhaps it's because i've always been that way, I am quite introverted at times and can get a borderline stutter. When in conversation, especially with friends, I can get into patterns of negativity. Often times it revolves around politics, both "big" politics and the politics we deal with on a daily basis, and it pretty much inevitably involves negativity.

Today was actually rather interesting, it was my first day back at work and I attended a meeting at which there was quite a bit of negativity and politics occurring. Later some parties confided in me and I found myself in an awkward situation: I agreed with their position but I found their focus on the negative aspects of the meeting to be disheartening. I tried to play for some laughs and remain "neutral" because I find that to be the best strategy in the workplace... but it was weird.

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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #7240243 -

I felt like bumping this thread and getting some fresh perspectives because I think right speech is very important and difficult to remain at one with.

When I go a whole day without talking I realize how much of what I say is inane blather.

What are the primary purposes of right speech? Does one attempt to speak in such a way that doubt is sown in order for new relationships with reality to emerge? Does one attempt to mirror another's insecurities, fears, irrational beliefs, etc., so that the other is forced to deal with them? Does one simply speak as honestly as possible and offer as little speculation or falsehood as possible? To the end of awakening others, or remaining free from the illusion of separateness which lies and slander promote so vociferously?

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Re: Right speech [Re: Silversoul]
    #7240251 -

Silversoul said:
Personally, I've found this to be one of the most difficult parts of the Eightfold Path, and one of the great obstacles to my own spiritual growth. I don't think I'm a particularly malicious person, but gossip and other negative speech just seem to come so naturally, and even when I try to avoid initiating it, I find myself getting dragged into it by others. It seems so harmless, but it does a great amount of psychic damage to us by generating negativity in our consciousness. Has anyone else had this problem and had success in overcoming it?


Yes hard to overcome. I do it less than I used to do. That will have to do for now.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Right speech [Re: Lion]
    #7240263 -

To the end of awakening others,

Can't be done IMO. To the end of awakening oneself.:thumbup:

Little children love to chatter about nothing. Mostly we continue this throughout life. It's mindless for the most part so I imagine the "cure" would be mindfulness. I don't think it would work as a "should." With mindfulness the chatter dies back of it's own accord, without struggle.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Right speech [Re: Icelander]
    #7240291 -

Quote:
With mindfulness the chatter dies back of it's own accord, without struggle.


With 13,472 posts, we are ALL waiting for the chatter to die. Should be anyday now...


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Re: Right speech [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7240296 -

13,473.

My mind is broken. I have given up attempts to fix the damn thing because I spent many years taking it apart and now I am missing many of the parts. The model is outdated and they no longer have replacement parts.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/30/07 03:09 PM)

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Re: Right speech [Re: Icelander]
    #7240322 -

A good technician ALWAYS has parts left over after putting a mechanism back together.


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Re: Right speech [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7240326 -

Yes, if the tech is missing any of his parts, he isn't being very careful.  :eek:

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Re: Right speech [Re: Icelander]
    #7240754 -

bug said:
I felt like bumping this thread and getting some fresh perspectives because I think right speech is very important and difficult to remain at one with.

When I go a whole day without talking I realize how much of what I say is inane blather.

What are the primary purposes of right speech?  Does one attempt to speak in such a way that doubt is sown in order for new relationships with reality to emerge?  Does one attempt to mirror another's insecurities, fears, irrational beliefs, etc., so that the other is forced to deal with them?  Does one simply speak as honestly as possible and offer as little speculation or falsehood as possible?  To the end of awakening others, or remaining free from the illusion of separateness which lies and slander promote so vociferously?


speak from Tao !
one time i was stoned and watching my friend give a long discourse about economic issues, all the while i had this big joy i wanted to give away. i saw him merging in a frenzy with the politician archetype and blurted out, interrupting him, YOU'RE A POLITICIAN and he laughed quite a bit with me.
Icelander said:
To the end of awakening others,

Can't be done IMO. To the end of awakening oneself.:thumbup:

Little children love to chatter about nothing. Mostly we continue this throughout life. It's mindless for the most part so I imagine the "cure" would be mindfulness. I don't think it would work as a "should." With mindfulness the chatter dies back of it's own accord, without struggle.


when it so happens that an individual is in a stage of learning they may come across someone that says something that assists greatly in a sense of awakening or the attainment of lucidity.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/30/07 06:15 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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