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OfflineSeussA
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Free Speech vs Religion
    #8047343 - 02/20/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This just in...

Quote:

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon reaffirmed his predecessor's line on cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad on Wednesday (2/20/2008), saying free speech should respect religious sensitivities.

"The Secretary-General strongly believes that freedom of expression should be exercised responsibly and in a way that respects all religious beliefs," his spokeswoman Marie Okabe told reporters.




I'm confused? Why should I care if a bunch of idiots living in the dark ages become upset because I make fun of their irrational belief in a fictitious god? I think U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon should affirm the importance of free speech and let whatever gods worry about any disrespect I might show towards them.

Yet again religion trumps freedom.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Posts: 14,794
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Seuss]
    #8047395 - 02/20/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I'm confused? Why should I care if a bunch of idiots living in the dark ages




Obviously if you don't want to care then you don't, regardless of Ban Ki-moon's decision.
Yes, it sucks, I don't like it and I don't believe in any form of obstructing free speech. It is old, rusty and stands against progress.
BUT obviously he doesn't seem to think so and apparently so do a large group of people, otherwise they would just grow out of it.
What I am trying to say is that I prefer not to feel bad about mentalities like these and just live my life the I want and think whatever I want. Sure that it would be nicer if the world was in a place where we could all drop all these superstitions and fears and start to actually learn, grow and enjoy life, but it isn't happening. And life can still be great if I choose to make it so.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Seuss]
    #8047396 - 02/20/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think it's quite so black and white. You believe that their beliefs are irrational. You believe that their god is fictitious. They believe that their beliefs are reasonable, and that their god is real.

It's the same age old issue: one belief vs. another belief. All conflict and division in this world comes from this. And everyone has been in the same boat.

You and I hold up free speech as an ideal, and others hold up not-mocking or whatever as an ideal.

Would it be the right thing to do to favor either side? Why is one more "right" than the other? It's a value judgment.

I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from. I think using free speech wisely and compassionately is the best thing to do, and I think that's what Ban Ki-moon is alluding to.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
    #8047424 - 02/20/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Your position sounds quite balanced, but what if someone's beliefs become more and more intrusive (as if the War on Drugs is not intrusive enough)?

Where do you draw the line then? Should you stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians? Did you know that sex toys are still bannned in some southern states because it offends the sensibilities of puritanicals?

Where does it end?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
    #8047463 - 02/20/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You and I hold up free speech as an ideal, and others hold up not-mocking or whatever as an ideal.




I believed in a christian god for quite a while due to the christian education I received as a child. And I used to get offended when someone was mocking "my god". Yes, it was "my god", that's how far the delusion and indoctrination can attack the human mind. I would take it personal and would make a purpose out of getting back at that person somehow.
Can you observe the psychological issues in all that?
Now I don't know if there's a god or not, even though I tend to think that there isn't. But since I personally and willingly admitted that I could be wrong once, I am also taking to account that I might suspect wrong this time too.
The difference between those two is not a matter of "right" or "wrong", but one of what seems to show more constructive and healthy results.
Now, from what I know, humor has never injured anybody. Resisting to it did. And so did (and does) blind faith.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8047480 - 02/20/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What has always cracked me up is how a mere speck of cosmic dust called a 'human' feels the need to defend the most powerful being in existence. I 'believe' if God exists that he can handle himself in a street fight. :box:


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8047484 - 02/20/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quite the fighter it is.:box:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8047487 - 02/20/08 02:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We're pretty comic little fuckers :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8047613 - 02/20/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, I don't think it is reasonable to stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians. But I think it is reasonable to simply refrain from saying something if you know that it's going to offend and hurt someone else.

The lines are subjective and have no substantial reality, but can be useful for living together in a world with such an amazing and awe-inspiring array of ideologies and value systems.

In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
    #8047636 - 02/20/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No as it is non-constructive.
By restraining ourselves from saying something that might hurt someone's precious feelings we encourage people not to grow up and stop being such butt hurts.
I strongly believe in survival of the fittest and if some can't stand seeing their imaginary god in a funny drawing then I am asking myself: what else can't they stand, how "hurt" they will be and if at some point it is possible for them to become aggressive or threatening.

Quote:

In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.




No again.
Peace is a state of being, it is something that comes from our deepest selves and it is the result of the maturity of the mind.
How mature are those who get offended? How mature are those who think we should "behave" around those who are weak-minded? This is not the recipe for peace in my book.
I prefer to get my ass kicked any time I show lack of understanding or maturity thank you very much. :hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
    #8047661 - 02/20/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
No, I don't think it is reasonable to stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians. But I think it is reasonable to simply refrain from saying something if you know that it's going to offend and hurt someone else.

...

In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.




Agreed, but I don't think conforming to someone else's intolerant dogma is a constructive activity if mutual respect is our goal.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8047668 - 02/20/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yup :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8047699 - 02/20/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

with the right of free speech comes the right to self censorship.
it is unlawful to force you to watch something, or listen to something.
as long as the speech isnt libel or slander or inciting a riot... then it should be ok.
no one said the muslims have to look at the cartoons.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
    #8047704 - 02/20/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think ultimately we can coexist in peace and unity if we are able to understand where the other side is coming from.


If you really believe this then you haven't been around.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: Icelander]
    #8047823 - 02/20/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

'If you really believe this then you haven't been around.'

Great.
I really want to have been around.
Sounds positive.


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8047833 - 02/20/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Determining which side leads to more healthy and constructive results is always going to be based on value systems that are influenced by all sorts of things like culture, religion, politics, education, etc etc.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: dblaney]
    #8047867 - 02/20/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I never sustained the contrary.
This is why we can always make use of adaptability. :wink:
We change accordingly in order to meet our best interests any time it is necessary and as a result the world changes according to who we become.
Momentary the most preferable thing to do is to learn how to integrate freedom of expression in our lives and make more use of humor and laughter. It seems to make us more relaxed and ready to accept.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8047874 - 02/20/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That's pretty disappointing. Free speech should respect religious beliefs? Then it's not fucking free speech, God-fucking-damn-it.

GJ UN.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8047908 - 02/20/08 03:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

While there's nothing wrong with having ideas and standards of what it means to be 'mature' or what it means to 'grow up,' these ideals are simply not the reality. What you're saying is that you think people should conform to your standards of maturity, and you're not going to consider the way people are right now. You're going to act the way you want to act and say what you want to say, and if it hurts them, then that's okay, it's their own fault for not meeting your standards of maturity and being.

The reality is that we are all just where we are and just the way we are, right now...with all our hang-ups and boundaries and comfort zones and taboos and sensitivities.

In my mind, maturity is recognizing this, and opening your heart to the world as it is. In some situations it may be the appropriate thing to do to challenge tightly held beliefs and notions by violating cultural norms and insulting people. But most of the time, I think the appropriate thing to do is to respect that people have boundaries that aren't always rational, and to keep these in mind when acting and communicating; not just completely disregarding others and only considering your own wants and drives.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Speech vs Religion [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8047935 - 02/20/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
No, I don't think it is reasonable to stop eating meat because it offends some vegetarians. But I think it is reasonable to simply refrain from saying something if you know that it's going to offend and hurt someone else.

...

In the interest of living together in peace, some sacrifices are necessary.




Agreed, but I don't think conforming to someone else's intolerant dogma is a constructive activity if mutual respect is our goal.




Well if conforming is the only approach towards mutual respect, then I agree. I don't think you can work towards mutual respect and tolerancewithout being respectful and tolerant yourself, and I don't see how purposely disregarding their own beliefs and attitudes is respectful. So I think you need to be respectful and from that foundation of kindness and respect work towards mutual respect and tolerance for everyone.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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