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Birthright
    #7084821 -

Birthright is defined as a right, privilege, or possession, such as property, to which one is entitled by birth. In his article "Taking Luck Seriously" Matt Miller suggests that birthright results in the "inherited package of wealth, health, genes, looks, brains, talents and family." Approximately two-thirds {or more} of all wealth in the United States is inherited by birthright. In a recent study conducted at Ohio State University's Center for Human Resource Research, author Jay Zagorsky stated "Intelligence is not a factor for explaining wealth." Therefore, one may draw the conclusion that most business and political leaders are not intelligent. They did not earn their way into powerful positions but rather were manipulated into them because of birthright. This further begs the question: then why are they in charge? Why is it that our country is not run by the best and brightest? Does the merit system stop when one graduates from school? While intelligence is certainly not the only factor in determining who is most fit to lead our society, it is certainly a better measure than birthright. In over two hundred years the United States has failed at overcoming one of the biggest barriers to a just society. We refuse to find a way to limit the benefits of birthright and therefore make for a fairer {and better managed} society.

"A Decade of Executive Excess,'' the sixth annual survey of executive compensation by the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy, finds the ratio of top executive to factory worker pay has exploded this decade from 42 to 1 in 1980 to 419 to 1 last year. Why are we paying these people so much more if they don't have the intelligence and will to act in our best interest? What tangible proof is there that top executives contribute that much more to the successful attainment of corporate goals? Why aren't these executives {Enron} given longer prison terms than car thieves? If intelligence determined corporate leadership rather than birthright, the compensation ratio would be much lower because smart leaders would recognize it as the right thing to do whereas those that are there by birthright simply don't know any better {or care}. It is this ignorance perpetuated by birthright that is leading this country to collapse. Perhaps someday our society will be lead by intelligent people who see their own best interest as having promoted society's best interest.

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Re: Birthright [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7086431 -

What you are describing is "money talks". People with the necessary resources can buy anything, including other people.


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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Re: Birthright [Re: hummermania00]
    #7086533 -

I dont agree that Money can buy everything but it is getting dangerously close to becoming reality, some of us still have a minds yet even that is dwindling by the day.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION
in a well controlled and responable manner :crazy2:


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With a bit of luck, his life was ruined forever. Always thinking that just behind some narrow door in all of his favorite bars, men in red woolen shirts are getting incredible kicks from things he'll never know

Edited by Rats_are_Dancin (06/25/07 11:35 PM)

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Re: Birthright [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7087110 -

JOEBIALEK said:
Therefore, one may draw the conclusion that most business and political leaders are not intelligent.  They did not earn their way into powerful positions but rather were manipulated into them because of birthright.


If they weren't intelligent enough to manage their wealth, then they would lose it due to bad decision-making, duh. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Why is it that our country is not run by the best and brightest?


Apparently because the best and brightest choose not to play that game, or they do, and they do run the country.

Quote:
  Does the merit system stop when one graduates from school?  While intelligence is certainly not the only factor in determining who is most fit to lead our society, it is certainly a better measure than birthright.


This doesn't even make sense. Business leaders are either successful or they are not. Politicians are elected, not born into being a representative.

Unless you are proposing that individuals do not deserve the free choice as to who they will leave their wealth for, then all of this is a waste of time. :what:

Quote:
Why are we paying these people so much more if they don't have the intelligence and will to act in our best interest?


We? Do you mean the board of directors acting in the interests of their investors? Obviously they are free to pay their CEO's whatever the fuck they want, in the interests of their shareholders. :wtf:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Birthright [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7090453 -

If this is about inheritance taxes, to keep old money from getting out of hand, that's fine. I think property rights end at death. Like they say "You can't take it with you."

But the other kind of birthright is simply part of nature. Successful people are likely to be from good genetic stock, so their children will have good genes. These people will also have the ability, desire, and resources to care for and educate their children. Likewise a person born to an honest father with many friends will have more opportunities than a child born to a father with few, or to a non existent father. You cannot limit this kind of birthright because it is basic to human nature. That's just the way it is. Life's not fair.

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7091692 -

Really? I made my money fairly, I paid taxes on my money fully and I'll be good and goddammed if I won't give it to anybody I fucking well choose.


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Re: Birthright [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7091734 -

Yes, exactly. Freedom of choice. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Birthright [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7091889 -

Why do you feel the need to use foul language zappsigod? I suspect it is because you have difficulty expressing your opinions in a coherent and persuasive manner. Typing "fuck and "goddamn" in every post just makes you sound like an ignorant ass.

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7091899 -

Regardless of his language, why do you not address the content of his post?

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Re: Birthright [Re: Redstorm]
    #7091941 -

There's no content to address. "I earned my money and I'll give it to whoever I want". OK fine, what does that have to do with birthrights, or even inheritance taxes?

If he's speaking to inheritance taxes, which I'm not sure is the case, then he is just blathering. Either his estate will not be required to pay them because it is under the threshold, or his estate will pay them. That is the law.

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7091952 -

Well then let's discuss the validity of inheritance tax. Sounds like bullshit to me, honestly. That money had already been earned and already had taxes paid for it. Its just the government's way of fucking that money twice. :rolleyes:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7092073 -

shroomydan said:
There's no content to address. "I earned my money and I'll give it to whoever I want". OK fine, what does that have to do with birthrights, or even inheritance taxes?


Which is why, sometimes, it is of absolutely no value to even talk to, much less "debate", some people. I will refrain from using Ythan's link.

What I said was rife with content. Please explain to us all why legally accrued wealth, with the taxes fully paid for at the time it was accrued should be confiscated and given to YOU. Because that's what you're all about, somebody else getting it and not you. Blame your parents and then get up off your ass, stop making excuses for yourself and leave a fortune to YOUR kids.


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Re: Birthright [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7092136 -

Inheritance taxes, capital gains taxes, progressive income taxes, and the like are designed to prevent wealth from accumulating in the hands of a few, who would then use that power to oppress the many. Progressive tax laws are designed to ensure a large middle class against the tendency of unregulated free market systems to divide people into a small class of very rich and a large class of very poor. The laws originated as reactions to the human rights abuses of the early industrial revolution in Europe and America.

Interestingly, Old Testament Law contains a similar provision to protect people from being divided into these two classes. Every fifty years, all debts were canceled, and any land that was sold returned to its original owner.

If you have not read Marx's Communist Manifesto, I recommend doing so. Marx was reacting against the inescapable poverty and horrific working conditions suffered by the working class in Europe in the 19th century. Public schools, government regulation of industry, capital gains taxes, and inheritances taxes were all his ideas. Marx's idealism lead him into a ridiculous Utopian fantasy, but his assessment of the problem and some of his proposed solutions were dead on.

So inheritance taxes. If you have an estate over $5,ooo,ooo then the government takes about half. So what, your kids still get 2.5 million dollars that they did not earn. The vast majority of people are not affected by the tax at all, because their estates fall under the threshold. If it seems unfair to you because the government taxes the money twice, then tell me how it is fair that some people inherit money and land while others have to work for it. That does not seem fair to me.

The reality is that life is not fair.

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7092233 -

Quote:
So inheritance taxes. If you have an estate over $5,ooo,ooo then the government takes about half. So what, your kids still get 2.5 million dollars that they did not earn.


The gov't also did not earn it. At least in the kids' case, the deceased willed them the money. In that way, they did earn it, at least in the eyes of the deceased. the government has absolutely no claim on that money since it was already taxed once.

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Re: Birthright [Re: Redstorm]
    #7092287 -

The kids have absolutely no claim on the money because they did not earn it.

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7092310 -

I believe it is up to the subject of the will to determine if the kids earned it.

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7092312 -

I don't really mean that absolutely thing. I was just offering it in answer to your claim that it's absolutely wrong that money be taxed twice Are not the tax laws made by man? Maybe it's OK to tax money more than once.

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Re: Birthright [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7092351 -

Don't speak to me as if I am a child. I am probably older than you.

Tell me your theory on property rights, because it seems to me as if you somehow think they are absolute, which is wrong.

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Re: Birthright [Re: shroomydan]
    #7092356 -

Quote:
The kids have absolutely no claim on the money because they did not earn it.


Correct. The kids have no claim on it, presuming they aren't named in the will.

But while it is true the kids didn't earn it, it is also true that the government didn't earn it either. This isn't about the rights of inheritors, but about the rights of the guy who legally acquired his farm or factory or grocery store or car dealership or stock portfolio or house or yacht or whatever in the first place. It's his stuff and he can give it to whomever he wants.

Usually that's a family member, but not always. In fact, it is not unusual at all for family members (often ALL of them) to be excluded from the will, and all the guy's stuff goes to charity or to his University or church or a hospital.

You said earlier in the thread "I think property rights end at death."

Why do you say that? What is your argument supporting that position?



Phred


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Re: Birthright [Re: Phred]
    #7092431 -

The short answer is property rights laws are abstractions created by people in an attempt to find a fair way to share the resources of the earth. They are a good abstract entities as long as they serve the intended purpose, but if they fail to provide a reasonable way for people to share earth's bounty, then they are subject to revision.

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