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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: GoldenEye]
    #22631736 - 12/08/15 10:33 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
O come on, we can't classify political groups anymore?




Sure you can.  I didn't say you can't.  You can call them whatever you like for whatever reason you want.  I suggest you take care not to drink your own kool-aid, but even that is your prerogative.

edit - Also, the disparaging labels are politically correct.


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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #22631770 - 12/08/15 10:38 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

I have no idea what your point is.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: GoldenEye] * 1
    #22631801 - 12/08/15 10:44 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

I'm saying that only opponents of them label them as "far-right" to disparage them.  This is a politically correct disparagement.  They do not consider themselves to be fascists or neo-nazis.  You are free to label them as you like, but I suggest you take care not to fool yourself with dehumanizing or minimizing labels.  If you lie to yourself, or even exaggerate, enough you will begin to believe it.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: DieCommie]
    #22631832 - 12/08/15 10:48 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

They would not generally compare themselves to fascists and neo-nazis.





Its a disparaging comment done to minimize and dehumanize them.  The same thing is done when the Islamic State is referred to as "extremists" by journalists and politicians.





just a tip - i occasionally write into google - define: x

in place of x, i write whatever word i would like to see the correct meaning of.

ex·trem·ist
ikˈstrēməst/
noun
a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action.
"political extremists"
synonyms: fanatic, radical, zealot, fundamentalist, hard-liner, militant, activist; informalultra
"with little to gain from moderation, the extremists rule the day"

journalists who do their job properly are using the correct terms when they say far right or extremist. Daesh are also fascist.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #22631868 - 12/08/15 10:54 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
ex·trem·ist
ikˈstrēməst/
noun
a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action.
"political extremists"





I agree.  I see no evidence that they are committing extreme action or hold extreme views.  They are more mainstream than the politically correct journalists and politicians are willing to admit.  They are a popular movement that arose out of the power vacuum from the  Arab Spring and Iraq war.  They are no global majority, but they are closer to the middle than many people are willing to admit.  Even those who oppose them and flee from them due to being of a different sect hold views that are not much different from my perspective.  They are not extreme.  They are a sizable minority despite catchy headlines written by journalists.

Its pretty silly to claim that the definition of extremist must fit because they are extreme...  That is begging the question.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: DieCommie]
    #22631885 - 12/08/15 10:57 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Allright, so it seems you think I am led to believe the Party for Freedom is fascist (which you think they are not because they think they are not) because they are often called far-right; and not because they came up with an extra tax for wearing a hijab and wanting to deport all Marocans? I'm not lying to myself about that or beginning to believing anything. It's pretty damn obvious what's going on.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: DieCommie]
    #22631939 - 12/08/15 11:08 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I'm saying that only opponents of them label them as "far-right" to disparage them.  This is a politically correct disparagement.  They do not consider themselves to be fascists or neo-nazis.  You are free to label them as you like, but I suggest you take care not to fool yourself with dehumanizing or minimizing labels.  If you lie to yourself, or even exaggerate, enough you will begin to believe it.




im pretty sure it would not exactly be a marketing coup if they announced they were fascist. I am french and can tell you that the Front National have always been fascist sympathisers. They welcomed the nazis and turned in french resistance in exchange for autonomy in the south. Marine Le Pens father called the nazi gas chambers just a detail of history and went on trial for holocaust denial.

True though that his daughter "kicked" him out the party, because he couldnt keep his mouth shut. All the political parties united to go against him in the election because the father actually won the first round of elections. This time, there has been a make over and Marine is now a moderate face of the party because her father became a symbol for too much. Other people who couldnt keep their mouth shut were kicked out, but this certainly says something about the party. This is a PR move to become more populist and enter into the mainstream. She is doing well at it, but i give her vice president the credit for that, he has done well to change the image of the party.

Quote:

One FN candidate on Aveyron in south-central France had called on his Facebook page for the “destruction of the Jews once and for all”. Another candidate in Ardèche in the Rhône valley had posted a swastika and the message: “Marine, you are the reincarnation of Hitler. You are going to clean up France.”   

Another FN candidate in Puy-de-Dôme in the centre of France was dropped after it emerged that he had had been convicted last year of trying to run over a pedestrian while shouting racist insults.




from here


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: DieCommie]
    #22631975 - 12/08/15 11:14 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Tipote said:
ex·trem·ist
ikˈstrēməst/
noun
a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action.
"political extremists"





I agree.  I see no evidence that they are committing extreme action or hold extreme views.  They are more mainstream than the politically correct journalists and politicians are willing to admit.  They are a popular movement that arose out of the power vacuum from the  Arab Spring and Iraq war.  They are no global majority, but they are closer to the middle than many people are willing to admit.  Even those who oppose them and flee from them due to being of a different sect hold views that are not much different from my perspective.  They are not extreme.  They are a sizable minority despite catchy headlines written by journalists.

Its pretty silly to claim that the definition of extremist must fit because they are extreme...  That is begging the question.





how is Daesh not extremist? did you just ignore the definition of the word?

they are not "close to the middle"? Waat?

Quote:

A number of specific political characteristics distinguish IS as a fascist organization in contrast to other militant salafi groups including al-Qa’idah; the first of which is its territorial claims and the second is state-corporatism. Fascist ideology is inextricable from statism and territorialism and IS goals have been to institutionalize and regularize their fascist perversion of political Islam within Iraq and Syria. What we know of state building of al-Dawlah al-Islamiyah seems clearly based on corporatist, capitalist mechanisms, where the “state” and its war machine monopolize revenue through the oil infrastructure, extorted taxes, and tariffs. This corporatism is enforced by a security apparatuses and “Islamic” courts that administer a severe penal (not legal) system in order to coerce compliance.

The forced “marriage” (i.e., rape and abduction) of Muslim and non-Muslim women (whether they be Christians, Kurds, Druze, Sunni Arabs, Assyrian, or Yazidis), taken as “brides” or war “booty” is hardly inspired by pre-modern Muslim armies. The IS’s practices of abducting, forcibly “marrying,” and raping underage girls and women are more akin to Nazi “joy divisions” and the Imperial Japanese Army’s brigade of “comfort women.”

The accusation of “anti-Semitism” has been used far too liberally in the recent decade to dismiss genuine criticism of Zionism and the policies of the State of Israel. However, the fascist Islamic State is truly anti-Semitic. Its call for death of Jews in France and their use of “Jews” as a trope in their political speeches unambiguously places anti-Semitism as central to their ideological worldview.

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/isis-fascist-movement#sthash.fiuH8Xl7.dpuf




Quote:

The execution of Musallam, in March 2015, embodies a number of fascist practices of IS. It confirms the conscription, militarization, and indoctrination of children into paramilitary groups. The intense ideological indoctrination used with children in military brigades distinguishes from other forms of child slavery and forced child conscription and is consistent with the Hitler Youth. This is not to mention the reports of enlisting children to commit acts of execution. The IS youth groups demonstrate the Islamic States’ intent is not “home guard” but, rather, to reengineer Syrian and Iraqi society, just as it was the desire of the Nazis.

The public executions of Musallam, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, and Jordanians, as well as Americans, British, and Japanese, are examples of the Islamic State’s mastery of fascist spectacle. Spectacles are arranged around executions, demolition, and book burnings. Their chain-sawing a three-thousand year old monumental Assyrian lamassu in the Mosul Museum and the bulldozing of Nimrud and Palmyra clearly demonstrate that, for all the claimed iconoclasm of the group, they have as full command of the power of spectacle as did any fascist regime. Their public executions of Sunni and Shiite Arabs and foreigners are carefully scripted, choreographed and staged. Likewise, the Caliphate itself is another perfect example where Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi speeches and rare public appearances carefully manage and craft the cult of a personality that is more ideology than theology.

Legal judgments, which are carried out publically, violate procedures of even the strictest school of Islamic jurisprudence, any of which provide an equivalence to due process and protection against hearsay evidence and false-accusations. Al-Dawlah al-Islamiyah creates these fascist spectacles to establish power, fear, and order within their territory while simultaneously using them as psychological operations against their domestic and foreign enemies. The Islamic State is fascist because it intentionally misapplies Islamic hudud codes, shar’iah and holy script in order to establish its social and political order. In the process, it has collapsed religiosity into the trappings of a hyper-exaggerated, even Orientalist, and Islamophobic, parody of political Islam.

The Islamic State, like the Nazi racial program, is intent on eradicating any and all vestiges of impurity and heterodoxy, even within Sunnism. It sees itself not as Muslim, but as the only Muslims. Their emphasis on purity is a fascist trope, instrumentalizing the desire to wipe out Sunnis and Christian Arabs along with all Shiites, especially Hizbullah, who, along with the Kurds, have dealt the IS its soundest defeats in Syria.





--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


Edited by Tipote (12/08/15 11:16 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #22632021 - 12/08/15 11:23 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
how is Daesh not extremist? did you just ignore the definition of the word?





Your definition of the word just states having extreme views...  Again, appealing to that definition is begging the question. 


Quote:

they are not "close to the middle"? Waat?





Huh?  Is that a question?  No, I don' think their beliefs or action lie on the extreme end of the spectrum of muslims.  Muslims kill and oppress all over the world.  The Islamic State is not some crazy negligible minority that is different than the rest of the world.  They are a popular movement born out of a power vacuum.  They don't act much different than Saudi Arabia or Libya or Pakistan in many regards.  They are closer to the middle than the politically correct mainstream west is willing to admit to itself.

The muslim mainstream,
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Better than the Islamic State, but not much better in my view.  (Better of course means closer to my morals and views, like always.)


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: DieCommie]
    #22632112 - 12/08/15 11:41 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
No, I don' think their beliefs or action lie on the extreme end of the spectrum of muslims.  Muslims kill and oppress all over the world.  The Islamic State is not some crazy negligible minority that is different than the rest of the world.  They are a popular movement born out of a power vacuum.  They don't act much different than Saudi Arabia or Libya or Pakistan in many regards.  They are closer to the middle than the politically correct mainstream west is willing to admit to itself.

The muslim mainstream,
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Better than the Islamic State, but not much better in my view.  (Better of course means closer to my morals and views, like always.)




"extreme end of the spectrum of muslims"? muslims kill and oppress all over the world?

You either mean that Daesh is not extremist or that all muslims are extremist. i'm assuming you mean the latter because the former but both are wrong.

would you be saying this for Christianity or Judaism? because if you were it would be just as incredibly simplistic. Islam is not one big homogenous monolithic group. Neither is Christianity or Judaism. Shall we also say Jews are killing and oppressing people all over the world? CHristians are killing and oppressing people all over the world?

I agree Saudi Arabia promotes Saliffya internationally which is ultra-conservative, very strict and pretty fucking brutal, this is not all of Saudi Arabia and this is not all of Islam. Saudi Arabia is also funding Daesh. Interesting that Saudi Arabia and the US have such close ties then.

The Kurds are also muslim and are fighting Daesh. why do you think most of the worlds muslims have come out publically to condemn Daesh? Why do you think thousands of Muslims and Christians refugees have been flooding into Europe and other middle eastern countries fleeing Daesh-controlled areas?


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22632220 - 12/09/15 12:02 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22632232 - 12/09/15 12:05 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22632306 - 12/09/15 12:20 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:




A good video.  I hope people watch it.  :thumbup:

Quote:

Tipote said:




Ouch!  That was quite a mistake.  :shocked:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblenight_shift
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: DieCommie] * 2
    #22632760 - 12/09/15 03:31 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I'm saying that only opponents of them label them as "far-right" to disparage them.  This is a politically correct disparagement.  They do not consider themselves to be fascists or neo-nazis.  You are free to label them as you like, but I suggest you take care not to fool yourself with dehumanizing or minimizing labels.  If you lie to yourself, or even exaggerate, enough you will begin to believe it.



Enough is enough already. Political correctness is a cosy blanket that dilutes the meaning we put into words and, as a consequence, the way we think about things - it's essentially brain washing done with the voluntary participation of oneself. Calling fascists "fascists" and extremists "extremists" is not meant to dehumanize or minimize them, it is simply recognising the truth - or, if you prefer, expressing one's own opinion on what "truth" is. Any polishing of the way we speak (and, as a consequence, think) dilutes said "truth" and blurs our vision. Not to mention the enormous amount of discussions that get completely diverted from the main topic just to argue over semantics which is simply a waste of energy, especially since each participant knows very well what the rest mean when using one word or another but they just happen to dislike one word or another and act as if winning over which term to be used will resolve the stuff that really matters.

To hell with political correctness is what I think.

Sorry about the off topic.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: night_shift] * 2
    #22633180 - 12/09/15 09:56 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Learnt a little bit so far. Thanks all.


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My shield...
My armour...

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #22633360 - 12/09/15 11:16 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

qman said:
"people are not sick of muslim immigrants in Europe"

Yes they are, they didn't have a say for allowing that group of people to stay in their country. 

Why would the native population want a group of foreigners that commit a massive disproportional amount of crime, refuse to assimilate into European culture and are massive leeches on the social services?  They would be more than happy to see the vast majority of them gone tomorrow.





absolutely, some people are but you are missing my point that this is from ignorant fear mongering and prejudice against the "other". Just as you said...

Quote:

you can't mix primitive people into sophisticated cultures.




this shows you take that very simplistic, very old view which does not represent reality, rather just ignorant opinions.

muslims are well integrated into European countries on the whole, where there are problems this comes from ghettoisation, prejudice and poverty which breeds a culture of crime. This happens to all disenfranchised groups. if you have a muslim name, you are more likely to not get the job you apply for. prejudice encourages these discrepencies. these gaps are shown to be the case for second generation people who have no problem with the language. integration is a two way street and organisation is key. Language issues are a problem. So that is something that should be tackled. Rather than saying, they can't speak english so kick them out, maybe ask why second generation muslims who speak the language perfectly and often feel British/French/German before their families country of origin, still are discriminated against in the job market? I imagine you would think its because they are from a primitive culture...which gave us geometry, algebra, advances in sciences etc..  Language classes are important, absolutely, just as other means of integration. Ghettoisation does not provide the conditions for smooth integration to happen. Nor does hate speech against all muslims based on extremist activities of a few.


Muslims fought for Britain in WW2, they still fight for Britain and other European countries today, they are in police, they run small businesses, they are poets, writers, journalists, diplomats, lawyers, doctors, dentists, businessmen, boxers, politicians, lords in the house of lords....
or are we just going to ignore them? Most muslims have integrated well but you talk of people being happy if the "majority of them" are gone tomorrow?? As a european i can tell you this is not true. The people that would be happy are those who hate anything foreign and who fall for these lies that muslims are primative.

please see this List of British Muslims in the UK...

many of those commiting terrorist acts are religious noobs/converts/ mentally ill/assholes. every country, every group has them.

also your obsession with "native" populations is weak. The borders of all of Europe have been in flux over thousands of years, all different kinds of groups made up France, England, Germany etc. Actually, the only natives in the UK were the Celtic Britons I would imagine and they had to come from somewhere - "the fucking foreigners.....!" - say a lone tree.  There is a difference between violent conquest and natural population fluctuations through migration. Refugee families that come may just go back to their countries if they weren't being bombed the fuck out of and they had a chance to rebuild in peace.




"fear mongering and prejudice"

How is the Muslim population having a massive disproportional amount of crime and abusing the hell out of the social services due to "fear mongering"?  It's due to their behavior!!

"problems this comes from ghettoisation...prejudice encourages these discrepancies"

So Muslims refusing to embrace education, European culture and criminal laws is the result of "prejudice"?  No, it's the result of their own culture.

"your obsession with "native" populations is weak"

So someone from 5000 miles away with a completely different language and culture is the same as someone who lives 50 miles away from the border?  :facepalm:  You're getting very desperate now, common cultures can exist with bordering countries, that's not the same as mixing Euro and Middle Eastern populations.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 2
    #22633410 - 12/09/15 11:34 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"fear mongering and prejudice"

How is the Muslim population having a massive disproportional amount of crime and abusing the hell out of the social services due to "fear mongering"?  It's due to their behavior!!

"problems this comes from ghettoisation...prejudice encourages these discrepancies"

So Muslims refusing to embrace education, European culture and criminal laws is the result of "prejudice"?  No, it's the result of their own culture.

"your obsession with "native" populations is weak"

So someone from 5000 miles away with a completely different language and culture is the same as someone who lives 50 miles away from the border?  :facepalm:  You're getting very desperate now, common cultures can exist with bordering countries, that's not the same as mixing Euro and Middle Eastern populations.





qman, we have been over this over and over again in other threads - clearly you won't accept it but thats that. according to you - black people, muslim people,  anyone other that white american or european christians/jews/athiests, are just lazy, want to live in poverty and are just babies to complain about discrimination. they just can't help but steal, right?  is that correct?

humans have common cultures all over the world. some aspects do cause friction but what do those cultures that are bordering do? how do they get on? maybe because they interact and learn and know the "other". You make statements like...

Quote:

you can't mix primitive people into sophisticated cultures.




which is very ignorant and simplistic, let alone harking back to days of colonial domination. who says the west is sophisticated? and they are primative? is it that sophisticated to make such general over arching comments with no consideration to nuance? i told you before this is orientalist. This is a very basic aspect of psychology - insider/outsider mentalities. We can make a group and demonise the other, dehumanise and pretend that we can never get on. If you honestly believe that people of different cultures cannot find common ground and live in peace, then i just think that is really sad - let alone ignoring the evidence that it is not the case.

Poverty and alienation has been shown to cause crime. Prejudices do cause discrepencies where people who have muslim names can't get jobs or sometimes are paid less, this happens regularly in France. Do you think muslims are just inherently lazy or something so they want to live in poverty? what argument are you even making? Muslim families are often surpassing white "native" british children in educational attainment at schools in the UK. There is often a stronger family structure and a high value put on education. What you say is just not true. You just ignore the issues and put it down to "THEIR" culture.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #22633464 - 12/09/15 11:45 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

I read an interesting book about poverty and basic income recently. I hope it gets translated to English so qman could read it. Poverty is not a choice and has nothing to do with lazyness. At all. Living in conditions of scarcity actually causes our brains to work differently.

Poor people are really good at making ends meet on the short term. They have to be. Their short term solutions are innovative and effective. They train this as they have to live from bill to bill and from paycheck to paycheck.

By living this way, their long term planning parts of their brain get downregulated. It becomes increasingly hard to make long term plans and strategize. To get out of their situation in other words. Add a welfare system to that which is completely belittling and not at all aimed at resolving the situation.

It's not a choice.

Here's a TEDtalk by the author Rutger Bregman:



The book is called "Gratis geld voor iedereen" ("Free money for everyone")


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: GoldenEye] * 2
    #22633624 - 12/09/15 12:30 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
I read an interesting book about poverty and basic income recently. I hope it gets translated to English so qman could read it. Poverty is not a choice and has nothing to do with lazyness. At all. Living in conditions of scarcity actually causes our brains to work differently.

Poor people are really good at making ends meet on the short term. They have to be. Their short term solutions are innovative and effective. They train this as they have to live from bill to bill and from paycheck to paycheck.

By living this way, their long term planning parts of their brain get downregulated. It becomes increasingly hard to make long term plans and strategize. To get out of their situation in other words. Add a welfare system to that which is completely belittling and not at all aimed at resolving the situation.

It's not a choice.

Here's a TEDtalk by the author Rutger Bregman:



The book is called "Gratis geld voor iedereen" ("Free money for everyone")




No one's saying poor people don't struggle in life, and some do have a very good work ethic, but the fact of the matter is, the US the EU do NOT need more poor people!!

You do realize both economies have a serious structural problem which makes employment very difficult and wages unlivable?  We can't even manage the poor we have in the US and people think more poor unskilled people is a good policy, that's stupid.

Our economies can't support more poor people, we already have too many poor natives with little hope in the future.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay] * 1
    #22633661 - 12/09/15 12:40 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Amerikkka doesn't have anything close to open borders based on the fact that you don't think they're tight enough




No, but based on the ability of thousands to stroll across the border, we do.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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