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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22635422 - 12/09/15 08:48 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I have no issue with employers facing serious fines and criminal charges for hiring illegal workers.

Is globalization natural market forces?  Yes, but tariffs can change that equation and create a better market for labor.

There was a time in the US when low skilled manufacturing jobs paid very strong wages, I want to bring that back, so does Trump.




:whathesaid:


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22635456 - 12/09/15 08:53 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

There was a time in the US when low skilled manufacturing jobs paid very strong wages, I want to bring that back, so does Trump.



That's never going to happen, though.  There is nothing that anyone can do to change the fact that the world has gotten smaller and it will always be cheaper to rely on foreign labor.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22635517 - 12/09/15 09:03 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

I have no issue with employers facing serious fines and criminal charges for hiring illegal workers.

Is globalization natural market forces?  Yes, but tariffs can change that equation and create a better market for labor.

There was a time in the US when low skilled manufacturing jobs paid very strong wages, I want to bring that back, so does Trump.




my point was that is it natural market forces if you intervene and put tariffs etc? i'm not saying at all that i am for natural market forces. It sounds pretty fucked but i dont pretend to know much about economics.

how would trump do that? surely it would just make it cheaper to automate everything? i dont see how it makes sense. the incentives for companies to stay in america will have to be very big.

like i say, economics is my weak spot.

i listen to MIT linguists for my economics understanding.....



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22636449 - 12/10/15 12:26 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
times haven't changed.  We've already discussed this.



The labor market was not tight all the way from the 50s' through the 70's, and it was not loose ever since.



Depends on how you define the labor market, less than 10% of the labor market had a college degree in 1965, that created a very tight labor market for educated workers, today it's over 30-33%.  Corporate America has the pick of the litter.



Are you arguing that the more educated the workforce becomes, the LESS they'll make???

The labor market is back to normal.  Companies need workers, and they're making record profits.

What's different now is that real minimum wage is way down, allowing companies to pay less even for semi-skilled workers, so long as they are paying more than minimum.  And labor unions have all but disappeared, giving workers little power to negotiate better wages, regardless of how much they make for their employer.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil]
    #22636543 - 12/10/15 12:47 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
tariffs can change that equation and create a better market for labor.

There was a time in the US when low skilled manufacturing jobs paid very strong wages, I want to bring that back, so does Trump.



So does Bernie.

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's never going to happen, though.  There is nothing that anyone can do to change the fact that the world has gotten smaller and it will always be cheaper to rely on foreign labor.



I wouldn't say "nothing". As qman noted, tariffs are one solution that can help restore wages, for example.


--------------------
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22636731 - 12/10/15 01:34 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Tariffs won't help.  All tariffs are reciprocal, so that just raises the cost of our exports as well.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil]
    #22636921 - 12/10/15 02:50 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Tariffs won't help.  All tariffs are reciprocal, so that just raises the cost of our exports as well.



Not on all countries, but on those that pay low wages that we can't compete with.  Those are the ones that couldn't afford a whole lot of our stuff anyway.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/10/15 03:32 AM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22637629 - 12/10/15 11:04 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
times haven't changed.  We've already discussed this.



The labor market was not tight all the way from the 50s' through the 70's, and it was not loose ever since.



Depends on how you define the labor market, less than 10% of the labor market had a college degree in 1965, that created a very tight labor market for educated workers, today it's over 30-33%.  Corporate America has the pick of the litter.



Are you arguing that the more educated the workforce becomes, the LESS they'll make???

The labor market is back to normal.  Companies need workers, and they're making record profits.

What's different now is that real minimum wage is way down, allowing companies to pay less even for semi-skilled workers, so long as they are paying more than minimum.  And labor unions have all but disappeared, giving workers little power to negotiate better wages, regardless of how much they make for their employer.




The college graduate is making much less after graduation today because there's more educated people in the workforce, graduating more lawyers brings down the wages and doesn't create more legal work.

"Companies need workers"

Yes, but there's more workers relative to openings, that drives wages lower.

"they're making record profits"

Thanks for stating the obvious, that's because of globalization, productivity gains, and lower wages due to the excess pool of labor.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #22638444 - 12/10/15 03:05 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Are you arguing that the more educated the workforce becomes, the LESS they'll make???



The college graduate is making much less after graduation today because there's more educated people in the workforce, graduating more lawyers brings down the wages and doesn't create more legal work.



Empirical evidence proves you wrong:



And attorney salaries are not trending down either:


^^^First Year Attorney salaries by Firm Size

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Companies need workers



Yes, but there's more workers relative to openings, that drives wages lower.



Once again, unemployment is back to normal, even by 1970's standards:



Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
they're making record profits



Thanks for stating the obvious, that's because of globalization, productivity gains, and lower wages due to the excess pool of labor.



You said it yourself; part of the reason they have more profits is because they are paying their workers less.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22638518 - 12/10/15 03:21 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

phwoaaaar, nice graphs  :asianofapproval:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22638662 - 12/10/15 03:48 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Are you arguing that the more educated the workforce becomes, the LESS they'll make???



The college graduate is making much less after graduation today because there's more educated people in the workforce, graduating more lawyers brings down the wages and doesn't create more legal work.



Empirical evidence proves you wrong:



And attorney salaries are not trending down either:


^^^First Year Attorney salaries by Firm Size

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Companies need workers



Yes, but there's more workers relative to openings, that drives wages lower.



Once again, unemployment is back to normal, even by 1970's standards:



Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
they're making record profits



Thanks for stating the obvious, that's because of globalization, productivity gains, and lower wages due to the excess pool of labor.



You said it yourself; part of the reason they have more profits is because they are paying their workers less.




Why are they paying less?  Because they can, are you suggesting business is just meaner than before? 

We are talking about recent graduates, not a 32 year who has been in the workforce for potentially 10 years after graduation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/02/low-college-grads-salary_n_7484204.html

"wages for university grads are 2.5 percent lower than what they were 15 years ago, according to the latest edition of the Economic Policy Institute"

http://www.epi.org/publication/10-year-decline-wages-college-graduates/



http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/

"Half of lawyers are now starting at a salary of less than $62,000 per year"

"starting salaries have fallen 13% over the past six years...half carried more than $141,000 in student debt"


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #22639136 - 12/10/15 05:59 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Why are they paying less?  Because they can, are you suggesting business is just meaner than before?



I provided some reasons why - because of a much smaller real minimum wage, from which many other salaries are based, and because of the decline in unions.  The money is there to pay people.

Quote:

qman said:
We are talking about recent graduates, not a 32 year who has been in the workforce for potentially 10 years after graduation.



We were talking about whether the economy is in better or worse shape than it was when your uncle was working back in the 60's.  You tried to argue that educated people are doing worse because there are more of them today, but I showed educated people aren't making less.  I believe the economy is about the same, unless evidence is provided otherwise.

I agree that wages on the whole are going down.  The question is why is that happening when the market is doing ok?  I provided some reasons above.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/10/15 07:15 PM)


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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil]
    #22639479 - 12/10/15 07:41 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

qman said:

There was a time in the US when low skilled manufacturing jobs paid very strong wages, I want to bring that back, so does Trump.



That's never going to happen, though.  There is nothing that anyone can do to change the fact that the world has gotten smaller and it will always be cheaper to rely on foreign labor.




Unless we open all borders.

Everything is globalised. Consumption, production, economy, trade, information... Why exempt labor and migration?

Opening all borders will surely equal out wages.

Being on welfare in the Netherlands makes you part of the wealthiest 5% of the world. The extent to which your place of birth determines your wealth is completely ridiculous and downright criminal.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: GoldenEye] * 1
    #22642066 - 12/11/15 12:10 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

qman said:

There was a time in the US when low skilled manufacturing jobs paid very strong wages, I want to bring that back, so does Trump.



That's never going to happen, though.  There is nothing that anyone can do to change the fact that the world has gotten smaller and it will always be cheaper to rely on foreign labor.




Unless we open all borders.

Everything is globalised. Consumption, production, economy, trade, information... Why exempt labor and migration?

Opening all borders will surely equal out wages.

Being on welfare in the Netherlands makes you part of the wealthiest 5% of the world. The extent to which your place of birth determines your wealth is completely ridiculous and downright criminal.




"Opening all border will surely equal out wages"

So you want to compete with people willing to work for $1 per hour?  If you think bringing everyone into poverty is a solution, you're wrong.

"your place of birth determines your wealth is completely ridiculous"

So being responsible as a parent and only having 1 child doesn't deserve a higher standard of living?  Having children you or your government can't afford is stupid, yet people in poor areas still continue to do it.

Look at the birth rates in the EU and Japan, they are very low because the people are responsible enough not to have children when the economic conditions continue to deteriorate, the Muslims don't give a shit and have lots of children since the governments in the EU pay for everything.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22642078 - 12/11/15 12:14 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Edit: double post.


Edited by GoldenEye (12/11/15 12:20 PM)


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22642101 - 12/11/15 12:20 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: GoldenEye] * 1
    #22642134 - 12/11/15 12:26 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
Immigration actually raises the wages of non immigrants:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2015/08/28/how-do-illegal-immigrants-affect-american-workers-the-answer-might-surprise-you/

http://qz.com/486484/the-numbers-show-why-donald-trump-is-totally-wrong-about-immigrants/

http://www.citylab.com/work/2015/07/more-immigration-means-higher-wages-for-all-workers/397766/




No offense dude, but you should be embarrassed to post such dribble.

If you can't see the rational and agenda for making this argument in the face of basic commonsense, then I can't help you.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22642574 - 12/11/15 03:06 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Why are they paying less?  Because they can, are you suggesting business is just meaner than before?



I provided some reasons why - because of a much smaller real minimum wage, from which many other salaries are based, and because of the decline in unions.  The money is there to pay people.

Quote:

qman said:
We are talking about recent graduates, not a 32 year who has been in the workforce for potentially 10 years after graduation.



We were talking about whether the economy is in better or worse shape than it was when your uncle was working back in the 60's.  You tried to argue that educated people are doing worse because there are more of them today, but I showed educated people aren't making less.  I believe the economy is about the same, unless evidence is provided otherwise.

I agree that wages on the whole are going down.  The question is why is that happening when the market is doing ok?  I provided some reasons above.




"because of a much smaller minimum wage, from which other salaries are based"

What does the decline of mid-level wages have to do with a lower minimum wage?  Nothing. If someone was making $35 per hour and now makes $20, that has nothing to do with someone making $9 per hour. It's called supply and demand in that particular labor market.  There's more skilled workers today relative to jobs, that lowers wages.

"The money is there to pay people"

That's obvious, so why don't they pay them more like they did before?  It's not the minimum wage, it's the excess pool of labor.

Why do you think so many work as a temporary worker status?  30 years ago no one had to, companies needed workers and before offered full-time employment with benefits, today they don't need to do so, just call a temp agency and get your workers and then fired them when your done.

Look at the history of health insurance, when the labor market was so tight, employers needed to add benefits to attract workers, they didn't do it to be nice. :lol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_United_States


Edited by qman (12/11/15 03:07 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22643018 - 12/11/15 05:27 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
because of a much smaller minimum wage, from which other salaries are based



What does the decline of mid-level wages have to do with a lower minimum wage?  Nothing.



If I'm making 1.5 times the minimum wage, and the minimum wage goes up 50%, do you really think that will NOT impact my salary?  Of course I'll get some kind of wage increase.  And if I get a wage increase, do you think that will NOT impact the people currently making more than me?  Granted, it wouldn't be a one to one raise (it will have less impact the higher you go), but it's still significant for middle America.

Quote:

qman said:
It's called supply and demand in that particular labor market.  There's more skilled workers today relative to jobs, that lowers wages.



I get the theory; I've taken plenty of economics courses.  But empirical evidence doesn't support the theory.  There was a time when wages for the entire labor force went up together:



As you can see, starting with Reagan it only went up for the wealthy.  Why?  There is a VERY strong connection with the decline in labor union membership:



Quote:

qman said:
"The money is there to pay people"

That's obvious, so why don't they pay them more like they did before?  It's not the minimum wage, it's the excess pool of labor.



I've already shown, there isn't a significantly greater supply of labor than there was in the past.

Quote:

qman said:
Why do you think so many work as a temporary worker status?  30 years ago no one had to, companies needed workers and before offered full-time employment with benefits, today they don't need to do so, just call a temp agency and get your workers and then fired them when your done.



Why not?  Unions used to prevent companies from doing this type of thing.  They're not there anymore.  :shrug:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: circastes]
    #22643241 - 12/11/15 06:30 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-idUKKBN0TO0SB20151206

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-analysis-idUKKBN0TQ25920151207

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-idUKKBN0TQ0VB20151207

Some interesting articles to read on the topic.

Pretty predictable outcome given the recent terrorist attacks and the unemployment and immigration disillusionment.

Sane, insane?

Something inbetween?

My 2c: Europe is for Europeans, multiculturalism is for nations founded on immigration, like Australia, U.S. & Canada. :justdontknow:




I do not think left-wingers are being reasonable on issues related to terrorism and immigration these days. I don't think right-wingers are either, and they never really have been. However, I think at this point in time, for security reasons, it is certainly understandable why people are embracing the right-wing approach, even in liberal bastions such as Sweden. I think this is one area where liberals have to be a little bit more rational, and a bit less 'bleeding heart'.

As a side note: I firmly believe it was conservative policy that led us into this predicament in the first place.


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