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Embarrassed of the relatives?
    #6955788 -

While high and thoughtful the other day I started thinking about and researching similarities in behavioural traits between chimpanzees and humans, some of which are so uncomfortably close that they highlight painful and appalling truths about our own species.

Look at our history. We are a world where genocides and atrocities are commonplace: think how many there have been in the last century alone. From Hitler and Stalin to General Idi Amin Dada of Uganda, organised and specific killing or “cleansing” occurs obscenely regularly for something that the majority of humanity views as hideously immoral and “inhumanly” evil. But this “inhuman” behaviour may be just the opposite, it is a very human attribute that is only observed in one other species out of the 10s of millions of life forms on our planet: chimps. Think about tales of native cannibals hungry for pirates merely 200/300 years ago. There no smoke without fire, regardless of how grossly exaggerated the stories have become. Much less than 200 years ago the majority of the “enlightened” white western world saw no wrong in the enslavement of black humans. Such seemingly primitive behaviour is widespread in our race today.

A small but ever-present percentage of our race are so “deranged” that they murder, rape and discriminate. But is “deranged” so accurate an analysis? Are these people simply not an aspect of our species that has been with us for all our history is undeniably human?

Chimps are well-known for their hunting and killing of colobus monkeys, but they are equally brutal to their own species. David Watts, who studies chimps in Uganda’s National Park says that “we've documented chimps killing at least seven infant chimps, four adult males, and one juvenile chimp. Other times, they have beaten up females pretty badly.”

In the 60s, a group of chimps studied by Jane Goodhall in Tanzania “split into two fractions, Kasakela and Kahama. The rivalry between the two turned in to a bloody "civil war". One by one the males in the Kasakela group killed every male and some of the females in their neighbouring group. Only a few years before the victims had been their constant companions.” In total a third of all male deaths at the area of study were at the hands of other chimpanzees.

Of course it is easy to portray chimps as bloodthirsty and violent, and we must take into account the impact of human interference on their behaviour, and the overcrowding in chimp population and threat to resources in some places. But even so, chimps in the wild with virtually no human contact have been observed displaying these behaviours. They are an aggressive breed, and recently females killing the infants of new mothers has been observed, believed to be a result of over-population for the food available.In one case the attack was so violent that “a baby chimp's head was bitten off” by the attacking female.

And while aggression is often sparked by the perceived threat of a similarly-sized rival group of chimps, the idea that chimps also kill and hunt for food is not such a strong argument. Chimps never eat the meat from killed adult chimps, although they do cannibalise infant chimps. Even with colobus monkey hunts, often the chimps eat very little of the meat.

With a shared common ancestor 5 million years ago, its seems to me that chimp killings mirror homicide and highlight it as an evolutionary trait that we seem unlikely to be rid of anytime soon. Education and socialisation may continue and progress, but we cannot deny our instincts, and it appears that for some people and species, instinct is a very horrible reality.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: mr_kite]
    #6955822 -

try not to identify with the meat and it's history that strongly

we can use our viewpoints to make civilized life more elegant and wise at every turn, but identifying with the whole mess wastes a lot of time.

the clear view is great
and adding beneficial bits here and there are great.
all the crummy stuff that is possible needs no particular extra attention.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6956009 -

But I find it very interesting to consider the nature of the meat, though of course I dont identify with all of it :wink:

And is the clear way not, in a sense, only possible with the full picture?


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6956034 -

Bologna.


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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: mr_kite]
    #6956216 -

We are chimps only if we look at ourselves as being chimps, and that happens when we observe the similarities between us and them and prefer to get stuck there, in the resemblances.
Obviously if we are able to observe those common points, it means that there is something, inside of ourselves, that gives us the chance to make those connections. That, in my opinion, is called awareness.
Now let me ask you something: do you think that a chimp would be conscious, in the same manner that we are, that some of our habits are the same as theirs? I think not.
Therefore, I think that yes, we are chimps in some ways, but not entirely. We can do so many other things with the awareness we possess, others then just finding similarities between "us" and "them". Let's focus on the the others part OK? :grin: :bongload:


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:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: mr_kite]
    #6956222 -

Quote:
Much less than 200 years ago the majority of the “enlightened” white western world saw no wrong in the enslavement of black humans.


Your statement is very biased. Despite the popularity of blaming 'Whites' (whatever that is), slavery was part of Africa and the Middle East for many thousands of years - and yes; Blacks kept more Blacks as slaves than Euro-Americans ever did.


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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6956267 -

The similarities between humans and chimpanzees are more than just superficial, and more than just imaginings of a human brain. We are certainly more aware and more intelligent than a chimpanzee, but those higher cognitive functions have been built literally on top of the primate brain.

Our social structure is obviously a primate one -- they're almost identical. And that awareness hasn't stopped us from carrying out the primate imperative to form close social associations where ingenuity and altruistic behavior within the group is rewarded, and an incroachment by another group is severely punished. In fact, anyone who has been paying attention for the last few years shouldn't have much difficulty arriving at the conclusion that our extreme intelligence with a chimpanzee's social imperative has only made things worse.

That's a big part of what intelligence is supposed to do. Brains are very costly to maintain, and predators with a social structure are some of the only creatures in the world who can afford to use them. They're also the only ones who can use the brain to its maximum utility by coordinating and planning attacks. That's why deer and cattle and rabbits can't do much more than run and eat, while dolphins, most primates, cats, dogs and pigs are much more intelligent by comparison.

We're chimps with nukes.

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6956400 -

MushroomTrip said:
We are chimps only if we look at ourselves as being chimps, and that happens when we observe the similarities between us and them and prefer to get stuck there, in the resemblances.
Obviously if we are able to observe those common points, it means that there is something, inside of ourselves, that gives us the chance to make those connections. That, in my opinion, is called awareness.
Now let me ask you something: do you think that a chimp would be conscious, in the same manner that we are, that some of our habits are the same as theirs? I think not.
Therefore, I think that yes, we are chimps in some ways, but not entirely. We can do so many other things with the awareness we possess, others then just finding similarities between "us" and "them". Let's focus on the the others part OK? :grin: :bongload:


You misunderstand me. All this talk of us being chimps and chimps being conscious of similarities, not true and irrelevant. I was illustrating the fact that the human race has a naturally violent condition in much the same way as chimps do, ie instinctual and evolutionary.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6956404 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Much less than 200 years ago the majority of the “enlightened” white western world saw no wrong in the enslavement of black humans.


Your statement is very biased. Despite the popularity of blaming 'Whites' (whatever that is), slavery was part of Africa and the Middle East for many thousands of years - and yes; Blacks kept more Blacks as slaves than Euro-Americans ever did.


I know it is biased, but that is irrelevant. I was merely giving an example of human nature, and your examples of slavery is just as valid. I also said that slavery is still widespread in the world.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: mr_kite]
    #6956601 -

Quote:
You misunderstand me. All this talk of us being chimps and chimps being conscious of similarities, not true and irrelevant. I was illustrating the fact that the human race has a naturally violent condition in much the same way as chimps do, ie instinctual and evolutionary.


We're being violent and behave like chimps because we barely exploit our potential. I'm certain that if we would train ourselves and reach that higher potential that we have, the similarities between us and chimps will get smaller and smaller. We've already done that shift a few times, but not enough, still this doesn't deny what we can/could do in the best conditions. I was not missing your point, I was explaining exactly that, what I am saying right now. We behave like chimps (being violent & shit) because we're unaware of the fact that can do so much better.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6956719 -

Anybody read 'Food of the Gods'??


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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6956895 -

backfromthedead said:
Anybody read 'Food of the Gods'??


Yup...
I find some points interesting and relevant to the discussion, but also some that are very controversial and kind of out of line. All in all, of taken with a grain of salt, interesting read.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6956939 -

I don't beliveve that because chimps are violent it means that it's inherent and inescapable in the human condition as well. That's a load. The use of violence is a choice. IMO violence is rooted in fear, and fear rooted in a dim understanding of life. This is what seperates us from apes; we have a much greater ability to understand life.

Now, if you were trying to show how a lot of humans haven't evolved their consciousness / understanding of life much past the ape stage, I'd agree. We have a greater deal of awareness in that we can weigh out the consequences of our choices much more than can our ape brethern...we have the potential but it is unrealized.


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Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

Edited by cilosyb (05/23/07 01:58 PM)

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6956944 -

I really found the chimp+fungus=human theory entertaining. My first trip ever I actually felt the exact same way about it before reading the book. The idea that psilocybin is THE evolutionary catalyst just has a ring to it. No?? What did you find to be out of line?? Very interesting indeed. I love that guy, don't care what people say, he hit the nail square on the head IMO. RIP. Question is what does human+fungus+time equal??


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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: Grok]
    #6956976 -

Quote:
Now, if you were trying to show how a lot of humans haven't evolved their consciousness / understanding of life much past the ape stage, I'd agree. We have a greater deal of awareness in that we can weigh out the consequences of our choices much more than can our ape brethern...we have the potential but it is unrealized.


Yes. That's exactly what I wanted to emphasize. We have so much more to evolve and it feels like we're just beginning to explore the unlimited potential of awareness. :mushroom2:

Now I can't really tell about chimps and why they they're behaving violent. In us, humans, I'll have to say that, from what I've observed, sometimes we choose to be violent while other times it feels like an instinct.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6957006 -

Mushrooms could play a role in our evolution but it's not something that I'm sure of. It just might be a simple supposition, it might be more meaning that it was one of the many determinant factors... :strokebeard:. We don't know for sure HOW :smirk:.
McKenna was indeed a very interesting person but some of his theories just feel kind out of line, and besides that fact that this is how they feel, they don't really have any kind of solid backup.
The search continues :sherlock:

Quote:
I love that guy, don't care what people say, he hit the nail square on the head IMO. RIP. Question is what does human+fungus+time equal??


I love that guy too :smile:
I just don't take as being real all his theories.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6957056 -

I'm more interested in freedom of thought than whats real sometimes. In that sense he is a shining example. Reality can be misery without this freedom to call it like YOU see it. Theories are theories... his just have a particular quality that resonates with me.


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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6957163 -

Quote:
his just have a particular quality that resonates with me.


I fully agree with you that freedom of thought is the most important, and that's the reason I like Mckenna too, I feel like his concepts resonate with me too. What I was trying to say is that I don't want to close my views just on McKenna because there are tones of other interesting things to explore with my own mind. :wink:

In the same time I want to be able to make the distinction between what is a simple delusion and what's "real"... one can keep his/hers freedom of thought even if ones also takes to consideration what's real. The middle path... :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Embarrassed of the relatives? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6957308 -

I hear that, keeping a hand on the wall is important and putting a lid on the box is not wise. Middle?? My path winds and wriggles around like a snake. I hope this guy can learn to fly.

I think the experience that he presented is very real, but like he said, very hard to english. It becomes a best guess scenario when science is behind the ball on the matter. So it becomes allegory and metaphor because we just don't know. What is it??


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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