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Offlinesirreal
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Einsteins thoery of relativity
    #2198574 - 12/23/03 10:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I have read this book twice. it is mainly about conceptualization of the theory. The mathmatics are secondary.

The implications of Einsteins special theory are amazing. It sheds new and deviant light on newtonion physics! The special theory allows for a more accurate portrayal of reality.


But, his general theory is mind blowing.It creates paradoxes galore. Such that it seems contrary to commen sense. Not logic, but commen sense!

His unified field theory failed. I am not that knowledgable, yet, about this subject to offer an opinion.

However the constant disagreements in this bizzare cosmological interpretation among top notch scientists has me lost in terms of where to begin. I really feel that it is accessible to my mind, I just am lost in terms of where to begin.

This is going to be an on going debate, so please contribute


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (12/23/03 10:25 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198600 - 12/23/03 10:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Just wait till you get into Quantum Mechanics...

For almost a century now, a very real and very disturbing problem has loomed over Physics. Most people have no idea it exists...nor what the implications of the problem are.

You see...we have two theories of the Universe right now. Both seem "correct" (yeah...right) and yet they are fundamentally incompatible with eachother.

These two theories are, of course, Quantum Mechanics and Relativity.

Relativity explains the gravitational force to an astounding degree...on large scales.

Quantum mechanics explains the other three fundamental forces (EM, weak nuclear, and strong nuclear)...on extremely small scales.

For the most part, we get by using one theory or the other. We use Relativity to describe the motion of planets, stars, star-clusters, galaxies, and up. We use Quantum mechanics to explain the interaction of sub-atomic particles at atomic scales and below. Either theory, when used in it's proper scale, gives us results that are consistently confirmed by experimentation.

However, if we try and combine the two theories - say to explain what happens inside a black hole - we get nonsensical answers (usually involving infinities - a dead giveaway that there is something wrong with the theory).

The problem comes from two entirely different views of what Spacetime is and what it looks like. Relativity describes spacetime as a smooth curved space (where the curvature is gravity)...but quantum mechanics states that at very small scales the fabric of spacetime is not smooth at all - it constantly ripples and even tears itself to peices. Thus the two theories are incomatible.

Einstein never bought into Quantum mechanics. He didn't like it's probabilistic nature - "God does not play dice" is his famous quote. He worked right until his death in an attempt to combine his field equations of Relativity (which actually combined the field equations for Gravity with Maxwell's field equations for the EM force) with what he suspected would be the field equations for the other two forces (strong/weak nuclear). He was unsuccessful in his attempt.

More to follow...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineTHATS iT!
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198602 - 12/23/03 10:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Begin at Planks length, constant and time then go from there. It is easier to comprehend once you understand the basics. After you have established these ideas then open your mind to unlimited possibility. If you want some mind blowing info read The Elegant Universe by: Brian Greene.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198605 - 12/23/03 10:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I want to add that there is still some debete on the enertial effects of newtonion physics that make Einsteins theory questionable.


Antimatter!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198615 - 12/23/03 10:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Enter String Theory!

String theory is my personal favorite of the GUT's (Grand Unified Theories). I find it's elegance to be...well...elegant.

String theory is able to combine Relativity and Quantum mechanics by smoothing out the small-scale spacetime disturbances predicted by quantum mechanics. It does so by setting a lower-limit on measurability, which is caused by the extended nature of the string (the most fundamental "particle" in String Theory). By replacing the point-particles of Quantum mechanics with an extended "string", the violent disturbances in spacetime become invisible (the disturbances only become apparent on sub Plank-length scales, and the diameter of a string is no smaller than the Plank-length).

String theory has made vast leaps and bounds in the past quarter century, and is now a working prediction-making theory. Unfortunately the mathematics behind string theory are not very well understood, and in some cases non-existent. We actually have a theory that we don't know the math for. This is the case because, to be honest, string theory was discovered by accident. We discovered some of the equations for the theory first, and have been working backwards from there ever since. This is completely opposite to "regular" science where experiment preceeds theory.

There's so much to talk about here...but I have to stop myself here before I go off on a rant :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinesirreal
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Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
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Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198618 - 12/23/03 10:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quantum phsyics is vague. Most of it is non-observational, based on pure speculation. Chemistry is as close as we can get to it. Using nonobservational methods to draw conclusions based on indirect observations.


Who knows what the future holds. I pray to whatever power that exists that I can be a part of that.


The tower of babel, maybe?


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinesirreal
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Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198625 - 12/23/03 10:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Enter String Theory!

String theory is my personal favorite of the GUT's (Grand Unified Theories). I find it's elegance to be...well...elegant.






Not to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, but many of Einsteins cosmological models were very elegant. Yet they prove erroneous.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (12/23/03 10:48 PM)


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198637 - 12/23/03 10:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Einstein was never absolute in wether or not electromagnitism played a role. He never conceded that point. That leaves it wide open!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198642 - 12/23/03 10:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, very true! I didn't say that elegance is my sole reason for liking a theory :smirk:

However...I think that elegance in a theory is a strong indication of it's "correctness" (I use that term loosly here...)


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineTHATS iT!
mellow
Registered: 12/26/02
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198652 - 12/23/03 10:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

To quantify something would be to label mathmatics to the unseen. It is a mathmatical graph. Allthough there are 5 different graphs that work differently but not completely and in some instances sharing parts. The point I am making is the numbers work with the given variables. And to prove the numbers the additon of super-symmetry.


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Offlinesirreal
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Posts: 1,775
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198655 - 12/23/03 10:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Just wait till you get into Quantum Mechanics...

For almost a century now, a very real and very disturbing problem has loomed over Physics. Most people have no idea it exists...nor what the implications of the problem are.

You see...we have two theories of the Universe right now. Both seem "correct" (yeah...right) and yet they are fundamentally incompatible with eachother.

These two theories are, of course, Quantum Mechanics and Relativity.

Relativity explains the gravitational force to an astounding degree...on large scales.

Quantum mechanics explains the other three fundamental forces (EM, weak nuclear, and strong nuclear)...on extremely small scales.

For the most part, we get by using one theory or the other. We use Relativity to describe the motion of planets, stars, star-clusters, galaxies, and up. We use Quantum mechanics to explain the interaction of sub-atomic particles at atomic scales and below. Either theory, when used in it's proper scale, gives us results that are consistently confirmed by experimentation.

However, if we try and combine the two theories - say to explain what happens inside a black hole - we get nonsensical answers (usually involving infinities - a dead giveaway that there is something wrong with the theory).

The problem comes from two entirely different views of what Spacetime is and what it looks like. Relativity describes spacetime as a smooth curved space (where the curvature is gravity)...but quantum mechanics states that at very small scales the fabric of spacetime is not smooth at all - it constantly ripples and even tears itself to peices. Thus the two theories are incomatible.

Einstein never bought into Quantum mechanics. He didn't like it's probabilistic nature - "God does not play dice" is his famous quote. He worked right until his death in an attempt to combine his field equations of Relativity (which actually combined the field equations for Gravity with Maxwell's field equations for the EM force) with what he suspected would be the field equations for the other two forces (strong/weak nuclear). He was unsuccessful in his attempt.

More to follow...





Einsteins general theory of relativity is pretty all inclusive. It allows for many interpretations! The cosmological model is variant, allowing for all kinds of possibillities.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: THATS iT!]
    #2198656 - 12/23/03 10:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No offense...but that post made absolutely zero sense :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198663 - 12/23/03 11:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Please tell me you were not talking about me.


My self-esteem would be crushed! :lol:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198666 - 12/23/03 11:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No no! But even if I was...don't let anyone crush your self-esteem like that :smile:

I was talking about this:
To quantify something would be to label mathmatics to the unseen. It is a mathmatical graph. Allthough there are 5 different graphs that work differently but not completely and in some instances sharing parts. The point I am making is the numbers work with the given variables. And to prove the numbers the additon of super-symmetry.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198670 - 12/23/03 11:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Just out of curiousity, is the big bang or the steady state your model of choice?

Neither for me. But please , don't feel pressured. :tongue:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198672 - 12/23/03 11:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If I had to choose from the two, I would go for the Big Bang. The steady-state model has been fairly well disproven in my mind.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198679 - 12/23/03 11:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you. I feel better. :smile:


Einstein was unsure about alot of things. He had much more limited knowledge than we have today.

Yes, even the pee-ons on tha internet! :thumbup:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198687 - 12/23/03 11:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
If I had to choose from the two, I would go for the Big Bang. The steady-state model has been fairly well disproven in my mind.





If you understand Euclidian and non-Euclidian geometry(which I am sure you do) each argument has its strong points!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: sirreal]
    #2198692 - 12/23/03 11:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The question then is: is our universe Euclidian or not?

I don't think it is...especially not if Relativity is close to the mark (curved spacetime is NOT Euclidian).


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Einsteins thoery of relativity [Re: trendal]
    #2198701 - 12/23/03 11:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
The question then is: is our universe Euclidian or not?

I don't think it is...especially not if Relativity is close to the mark (curved spacetime is NOT Euclidian).





Why?

No boundries. Infinite demensions beyond that of space-time...

It is all inclusive. Nothing is impossible regardless of what model you choose.


BTW, I am fucked up! :stoned:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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