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OfflineSneezingPenis
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perspective, relativity, and measurement...
    #4387762 - 07/09/05 09:20 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Last night, as I lay still in my bed, I asked myself how fast I was moving. At first, I responded (to myself) "well, 0 mph", but then realized that that was only relative to my present surroundings, and was however moving extremly fast relative to the sun. Then thought about the micro side, and thought about how fast my body was moving on a subatomic level, which would be relative to a fiber on my sheets.
Then, i thought about how basically, all measurement is purely relative which makes it thusly infinite, or atleast as finite as there are possible perspectives and relativities.(word?)

Now, science needs measurements, some finite amount, but in by doing so, has cemented its present perspective and ignored the multitude of possible perspectives and objects used as relative.
example: if I was driving a car and moving on the road, my speedometer tells me I am moving at 60 mph relative to a point on the road, but actually, I am moving at 60 mph + 29.77 km/s + ??? (???=the unknown but possible speed our galaxy is moving) + (the possible, but unknown speed our universe is moving). This doesnt even account for direction, as if I was moving 60 mph east, yet the world was moving 30km/s west, you would subtract that, but then again.... direction is merely a measurement, and submits to the need of perspective and object/point relative for it to exist.
Just as we seem to "logically" think that we send a spaceship UP to space, and one could even say that since our solar system is lined up in a horizontal fashion, that going "UP" while in space, would constitute having the earth and sun "below" you, but then zoom out the relative point once more, and you could actually be going "left" or "west" in the galaxy, zoom out even more you could actually be going "down" in the universe.

So with all this uncertainty involved with measurement, something that is supposed to instill certainty, science can never define something as absolute. I am not trying to do away with science or invalidate it really, but just make a point that in its function it is no better or more accurate than our own opinions based on a single perspective (ourselves/mind being the relative point). Science is merely a tool to help describe the here and now on one shell or sphere of perspective, and only explains such. So while "logically" i may be driving 60 mph , that is actually false.


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Offlinefutant462
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Re: perspective, relativity, and measurement... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4387904 - 07/09/05 10:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well, it isn't actually false, its just cumbersome and over-obvious to label it as "the velocity of your car in comparisson to a car on the road moving 0 miles an hour right next to you." It's doesn't make measurement useless, it only limits its usefullness. By this I mean that a measurement is extremely useful as long as the guidelines of its effectiveness do not become an issue.

Also, your sentence: "Then, i thought about how basically, all measurement is purely relative which makes it thusly infinite, or atleast as finite as there are possible perspectives and relativities" does not make sense to me. I don't understand where you jumped to the assumption that it would become infinite? what would be infinite?


--------------------
"no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs; we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed, and love of power.?
-P.J. O'Rourke

What is a Quantum Particle?
The Dreams that stuff is made of!


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: perspective, relativity, and measurement... [Re: futant462]
    #4387923 - 07/09/05 10:22 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

well, relativity itself I think.

I think he was thinking in terms of absolutes, which he found wrong, and decided absolutes are useless, not science.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: perspective, relativity, and measurement... [Re: vampirism]
    #4387995 - 07/09/05 10:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

well, futant, measurement is actually abstract in nature. Does an inch exist? do grams exist? no, the actual object which is an inch exists, and the actual object that weighs a gram exists... (without getting existential of course).
So, im sure that in the 1400's the nanometer wasnt a measurement. As we find and realize that smaller and smaller parts make up matter, we make new measurements to describe or give perspective to them. How would you define an inch to someone who had never heard the term? you would have to give them substance or perspective.
saying something is infinite, is giving it the quality of absolute in a sense, so i gave the disclaimer that it could be finite in respect to the amount of perspectives and relative objects.
On the other hand though, since the one truly infinite thing in this world (IMO) is the abstract. Since measurment is abstract, therefor it can be infinite in theory, until maybe one day, we do find the fundamental/smallest building block of existence.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: perspective, relativity, and measurement... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4389057 - 07/10/05 05:00 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Why didnt any of our resident scientists like diploid and phluck hop on this?


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Offlinefutant462
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Re: perspective, relativity, and measurement... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4396194 - 07/12/05 04:33 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I see your point, and it is definately a grey area for sure. If yoru definition of 'exists' is meant in exclusively the physical sense, then I agree with you. But the abstract cannot be completely discounted I feel. And although our common system of measurement may be somewhat arbitrary (by that I mean metric, as opposed to english units which are complete hogwash) a system of measure could be composed based on something physical i.e. standard unit of measure = to the diameter of a proton or something like that, standard unit of time= to the amount of time it takes a photon to pass across an atom, or something in that regard, then it makes measurement more meaningful in the physical sense of the word.

your point is a strong one though, that nothing can be known at 100% certainty. Nearly every step forward in science is accompanied by an error or assumption that, while very accurate and fine for practical purposes, does not define EXACTLY what is going on on the most precise possible levels. This means that each level of discovery in a sense is less and less precise due to the countless approximations that came before it.

As for the fundamental building block of the universe, I personal don't believe it exists. But thats an entirely different argument in and of it itself.


--------------------
"no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs; we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed, and love of power.?
-P.J. O'Rourke

What is a Quantum Particle?
The Dreams that stuff is made of!


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