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 The_Clash_UK
Day Tripper
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,000
Loc: UK
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 The Bible - REVELATION 
#683507 - 06/17/02 08:39 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just wondered what your thoughts on Revelation are. Do you believe it fortells the end of the world?
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Crash a cig guvnor?
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 gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 9 days
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: The_Clash_UK]
#683527 - 06/17/02 08:49 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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well of course it fortells the end of the world...
now, as to whether the world will actually end according to the "prophecies" found in the book of the revelation of john, well, that's another story...
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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the_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist
Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: The_Clash_UK]
#683528 - 06/17/02 08:49 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm thinking it's a partial description of it, for sure. The Eschaton manifests itself imperfectly backwards through time so, something like the Revelations written by a single persecuted visionary nearly 2000 years ago, though grasping at the essential core of the "Apocalypse Experience" will naturally misinterpret some things.
I think Revelations is certainly significant, but not absolutely necessary to a full understanding of the "End of the World" as a concept or an actual event. "Wait and see" that's my approach! 
the Landotter
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Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal
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Anonymous
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: The_Clash_UK]
#683575 - 06/17/02 09:17 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am in line with these folk.. I believe Revelation does fortell the end of the world (as we know it) but in a symbolic way more than anything.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: The_Clash_UK]
#683779 - 06/17/02 11:07 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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METAPHOR METAPHOR METAPHOR
A world based in sensory experience... a personal reality...
A revelation of the end of this singular world explained in archaic archetypes from a culture that was lost long ago and replaced by new ones with new superstitions and new archetypes. And to think, there are many who actually try to apply this out-dated-end-of-the-world vision to their modern lives. No wonder so many assholes crammed their cupboards with canned goods and slept under their beds two years (and 6? months) ago. I remember that night vividly- I had eaten about 3 grams of the godflesh and my apartment was full of drunks. I plugged in extra lights in hopes it would cause a midnight blackout... it didn't, but I hit the breakers at the expected time of arrival of Armageddon anyways- you know, just for kicks.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: Sclorch]
#683798 - 06/17/02 11:17 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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No wonder so many assholes crammed their cupboards with canned goods ...
Hey, what's wrong with stocking up on Pork N Beans? Besides, they were on sale and I had plenty of storage space, so...
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The proof is in the pudding.
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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 Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: The_Clash_UK]
#683862 - 06/17/02 11:59 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Revelation
ॐ
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: The_Clash_UK]
#683928 - 06/17/02 12:25 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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It fortells the end of the world, but remember that prophecy is nothing more then a collection of future events which are agreed upon by men. Nothing is set in stone. Well, the ten commandments were but that's a different story..
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: The_Clash_UK]
#684384 - 06/17/02 03:52 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just as an equalizer of sorts, I thought I'd mention that before me is a book that I've had since 1978 by Edgar Henneke, entitled 'New Testament Apocrypha, Volume Two: Writings relating to the Apostles Apocalypses and Related Subjects.' This book contains several examples of apocalyptic writings that were available at the time that the canonical Bible was compiled, but intentionally left out. The Apocalypse of John's Revelation is but one. Generally speaking, they talk about the end of time, but not necessarily about the end of the historical process. In other words, 'The Apocalypse of Paul,' is about the afterlife, which is the end of time for each individual. In this book, an angel takes him to the Third Heaven, as well as to the place of sinners. Similarly for The Apocalypses of Mary, of Elias, of Stephen, of Zechariah, etc.
We've forgotten that it was a group of men, now dubbed Church Fathers, who decided which writings to include as orthodoxy - right view. Since it was forbidden for non-priests to read the Scriptures (if one actually could read), believers were forced to buy into only selected writings and the priestly interpretations. There was at least one agenda, and that was for priests to have all the power. Without them and their administration of the sacraments, one was excommunicado, banned and damned. The naively optimistic view would be to believe that these men (no women), above all others, were divinely guided by the Holy Spirit [Consciousness] to accept or reject all of these Christian writings, for the benefit of all believers. Their decisions as to what will be orthodoxy has created the main form of Christianity for two millennia, Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant. Most people look to temporality, to the end of history, to a great cosmic cataclysm. People also don't understand that visionary experience comes with great awe - the "Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans," and has mind-blowing psychological effects, not necessarily literal earth-shattering effects.
Lastly, we all know that stars die, and when Sol dies, the Earth perishes, unless asteroids blow us to bits first (Revelations does say 'stars will fall to Earth,' and 'aster' means star [asterisk * ]. 1st century people didn't know a star from an asteroid). So apocalypses intuit the end of creation, and suggest our spiritual conditions to follow in the language of mythos and Jewish midrash (story-telling tradtion). The moral predicament: don't wait to get straight [with God], one never knows when the end will arrive - individually or collectively.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Tell all that to Jerry Falwell. I'd like to see him agree with those posts... that'll be the day... yep, hell will freeze that day.
I bet Falwell would rather believe that a giant asteroid is coming and then the hellishly-hot magma core of this planet will be spread across the sky in the biggest pyrotechnic spectacular that the martians have seen since the ice age.
No Shroomism... that was not a concession that aliens exist.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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World Spirit
PNW
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Posts: 9,817
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Deleted by admin
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Sclorch
Clyster
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: World Spirit]
#685582 - 06/18/02 07:51 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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IYHO... whatever.
You know it isn't talked about, but Tiny Tim grew up into a strong lad with no need for his old crutches. I think it's a better story than some tale of three spirits scaring a man into changing. But that's just me...
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: World Spirit]
#685674 - 06/18/02 08:52 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Let me try to help you understand that the word 'spirit,' is an old word that has very vague meanings. Consciousness is a modern word that can include an entire spectrum of levels of 'awareness.' God, or Spirit can best be conceived of as BEING - not 'a' being, but the very infra-structure of existence. Theologian Paul Tillich called God the 'Ground of Being,' and more recent theologians like John MacQuarrie have constructed beautiful intellectual explications of this idea.
Since God is infinitely greater than His creation, he is not less conscious than we are, He is surely 'Super Conscious' (which is an attribute that Hindus have made much of about God). If we are persons, God is surely Transpersonal - beyond our comprehention of personhood, and has been symbolized by Tertullian (and all Christians since) as a Trinity - Una Substantia Tres Personas - One Substance in Three Persons. This IDEA (mind you, an idea is a pale reflection of Reality. We can represent atoms in two or three dimensions, but these are ideas about the reality of atoms. Likewise with God).
That Spirit is said to be synonymous with Consciousness in no way equates consciousness with an attribute of Man. Human consciousness [or spirit] is our participation in the Consiousness [Spirit] which is God. 'In God, we live and move and have our being.' God is the Ocean of Consciousness and humans are very momentary waves on the mere surface of this ocean. Most people believe they are separate identities, having existence apart from our Creator. From God we come, and to God we return. Our wills determine how we shall 'be' in our momentary existence, and further determine how That Light which is God shall be received. To the extent that we are 'in Christ,' that is, to the extent to which we are filled and transformed into Compassion and Love, the return to our source will be ecstatic - i.e., 'heavenly.' Conversely, the extent to which we have become selfish, isolated, even evil 'individuals,' there will be nothing of Christ in us to be received in the end. Only Love gets into Heaven, or God, hence the urgency to become like Christ. Everything else of us perishes, is incinerated in the Light of Unmitigated Reality. 'No one may see the face of God and live,' so our ego must die while our Love must increase.
I am not constructing this from my personal opinion. This is Christian theology with an Orthodox bent. I am influenced by Pseudo-Dionysus (Dionysus the Areopagite) and from ancient Patristic mystical doctrines.
You are also coming from certain schools of thought in that you are attempting to describe the 'movements' or 'motives' of the Divine Persons (the Divine Economia it is called) using social or 'governmental' language. I would recommend that we not take any of these constructs about God's Essential Nature too seriously. There are many Old Testament Names for God that were utilized and carried forth into NT writngs for some esoteric reasons that Gentile Christians never understood. Gentile Christians created their own esoteric doctrine of the Trinity which Jesus or Paul or John or anyone else in 1st century Judea never heard of, or believed. So please tread lightly in such matters. Thousands have died in battles between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, and the schizm created over The Filioque: does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son as in Catholicism; or does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son, who proceeds from the Father, as in Orthodoxy? WOULD YOU KILL A MAN OVER THIS QUESTION ???!!! For God's sake, this kind of debate is insane! Wars over this?! See what I mean. More of Man's utter presumption. God is Mystery, let's be humble about that.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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GRTUD
INFP
Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 270
Loc: United States
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Amen, Brother Mark. I love this stuff! It's the best show in the universe! Keep it going, we all need to hear this and be renewed by the power of God's love and word. What may seem a disagreement to you, is a lesson in dire need to me .
Thanks for sharing your knowlege! Everyone.
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"New shit has come to light..."
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
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Loc: South Florida
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Re: The Bible - REVELATION [Re: GRTUD]
#687895 - 06/19/02 08:04 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, thanks for the uplifting response GRTUD. I enjoy the interactions with other people on truly High matters, but I have rarely met any people over the past 30 years who enjoy the same. If joining a church could satisfy this need, I would have done so long ago. Alas, churches are the social 'thing to do,' and very little else, unless a certain social consciousness is there to collect food and supplies for the needy. Despite the need for this, neither church nor yoga group nor cult for that matter has ever been a format for my kind of exchange - until I bought my first computer some 3 summers ago and found The Shroomery, and a few similar sites on which to share.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 9 days
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greetings markos (& everybody else, heh...)
ahhhh, and for blood shed in western europe just between christians (setting aside pogroms and other social practicies against jews, moors, followers of "the old religion"(s), and miscellaneous heretics...) the roman catholic forces against the protestants (and the protestants against other protestants...) over (mostly) the nature of the communion elements --- what happens to the bread and the wine during communion ritual...
thrty years war in germany, st. bartholomew's day nassacre in france, execution of quakers in england...
and out of the same cauldron of history: angelus silesius, jakob boehme, many other protestant and cathiolic mystics (and jewish and sufi and secret and not-so-secert brothehoods and lodges and scoieties...
busy times...old worlds to conquer, new worlds to gain... old scores to settles, new ways of seeing and being... new places to go, fresh ways of thinkng... aboout some of the oldest questions, hehheh...
mmmmm, hey markos... always willing to take a peek at int'restin websites...
so... any suggestions for shroomerites who might want other places to talk (or just read) about... mmmm.... the "big questions" (for lack of a better phrase ...)
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be well, friend
be well friends
may all be well...
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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GRTUD
INFP
Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 270
Loc: United States
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In reply to:
neither church nor yoga group nor cult for that matter has ever been a format for my kind of exchange
Damn, there goes my Church + Yoga + Movie club, merger idea. 
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"New shit has come to light..."
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