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OfflineHerbanShaman
I am the Walrus

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 233
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
The Bible's History
    #2993658 - 08/12/04 12:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I was brought up going to church like a lot of people. Like other people I was always taught that the bible was the word of god, and believed that for a long time. Enter history. Since biblical manuscripts were first written down they have been subject to constant change and manipulation. From the first writings around the turn of the first millineum writings were changed to empower the current preists and retain pegan rituals that people were yet unwilling to relenquish. Many people fail to realize that most early christians were polytheists. Later emperor Constantine used the bible to tighten his grip on a failing empire and changed the bible to meet his demands. As time went on the catholic church, Martin Luther, St. James, and others went on to reinvent the bible in new manners that suited thier own devices. Why has no one questioned this? Why do most not wonder about the lost books of the bible? There is no doubt that the bible is one of the most driving forces in history and that its content is spritual. To what degree are we willing to follow a book whose validity we can never be sure of? Would an almighty god really believe that all we needed to know about him was in just one book? To what degree should we question the integrity of this holy book, or any holy book? I do not think of this question as one of blasphemy, but as one that could actually bring us all closer to understanding who god really is, and what he's all about.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #2993771 - 08/12/04 01:04 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

There is a verse in the Bible, Revelations I believe, that condemns in advance anyone who changes a word of the text. Now why would they add that if it had never happened before?


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #2993870 - 08/12/04 01:22 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The Bible was written over the course about 1,000 years by many different writers, often writing about things that had happened hundreds of years before them. They say that the Book of Genesis is the composite of four different authors compiled over a couple hundred years. Most of the events described in that book are supposed to have happened between the years of 3000 and 1100 BCE, and yet most of the book dates back to 700 BCE. Most of the early bible stories had been passed down and changed through hundreds of years of oral tradition and where seen as metaphorical rather than literal or factual. If you want to read any of the OT Apocrypha you can buy a Bible with Apocrypha included.

The New Testament however, was written between 10 (the Eptistles) and 100 years (the book of John) of Jesus' death. In the fifth century AD at the Council of Nicea the official Christian cannon was created. Before that there were many different Gospels and an alternate version of Christianity know as Gnosticism. However, in all fairness, the gnostic gospels were written often one or two hundred years removed from the time of Jesus. The cannonical Gospels were overall far more accurate than the Gnostic Gospels, which often had very drastic theological departures.

Of the lost New Testament books only two are of any signicance in understanding the truth of Jesus' life and early Christianity. The Gospel of Thomas, sometimes thought to a 'proto-Gnostic' Gospel has been said to be the oldest, and probobly most authentic record of Jesus' life and sayings. It is very different than the other Gospels because of it's Buddhist-like slant, but also shares some of the same sayings as the other early Gospels like Mark and Matthew.

The Gospel of Peter has been mostly lost but the manuscripts left show some subtle differences from the cannonical gospels, and a more creative account of the Resurrection.

However, besides Thomas, Mark is the only book that was written within 30 years of Jesus' death, and contains the most accurate account of Jesus' life.


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Offlinemyshroom
Apprentice ofthe mushroom
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 1
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #2996604 - 08/12/04 06:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Before I begin, I would like to make it inherently clear that I am not a biblical scholar or expert of any kind, but I would like to point out that when questioning the truth and validity of the Bible, you are merely questioning the literary works of men. How can any man (or woman) claim to be relaying the word of God through his or her own communications? I mean, for me to accept something as the word of God, I need to hear it from God, not a man whose credibility (or lack therof) lies in the fact that he exists as a man, not as God. I am not calling the various authors of the Bible liars, I am merely acknowledging that the Blble was written by man, manipulated by man, and interpreted by man. I am not one to decide if the words of the Bible are true and accurate or not, but I can say with confidence that it was written by men and not by God himself or any other diety or supernatural being, so by accepting the Bible's validity, we are merely accepting what we have been told by other men. Not one of us can "proove" the accuracy of all parts of the Bible, and therefore it cannot be proven to be fact or fiction. That is something that we may not understand for ourselves until we meet our maker at the end of life's journey.

I would like to say that I personally was raised in the church and taught to accept the Bible as the word of God, and when I began to question the teachings of my church, I was more or less no longer accepted as a devout Christian for questioning what I was told. I, however, believe that the words of the Bible may or may not be true, and that the presence of truth within its words is not entirely necessary. I see the Bible as more of a guide to be interpreted individually and our thoughts and actions can be based upon conclusions drawn from the lessons in it, rather than blindly following and believing it word for word. My personal interpretations include the idea that the Bible is more like a fable or children's fairy tale that is not necessarily meant to be taken literally or as factual history, yet still holds value in that important lessons regarding morals (the moral of the story...) can still be learned from it despite whether or not the words hold direct factual truth.


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Invisiblefastfred
Old Hand
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #2996652 - 08/12/04 07:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Check out this bible's history!




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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #2996700 - 08/12/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I also was grown on the belife that the bible was the word of God. And most of me still holds to that because God has moved many times in my life in very big ways. but...a little history lesson on the origins of the King James bible, which almost all christins hold so dearly.

In the 15th century there was a king named James. Now James had a pretty calm life as king. His people were happy and there were no majior wars, no real panic of any kind. Things were good thru out his entire life.

Most kings before him were remembered for great conquests or huge finacial gains for his subjects. But he relized at a old age history wasn't going to remember him for anything but one thing.......

He was Gay and wasn't very public about it.  There was no way he was going down in the history books as a Homo!!!!

So he asked his religous leaders what he could do about it???

Of course they told him to turn from his ways and repent.

But he was confused about how being gay was wrong. so first got all the scrools he could find to research this homo thing in depth
What he found was a bunch of mixed up scrools, in a big shit pile of scrools.

What to do....hum....  HEY IF I THE KING PUT ALL THIS INFO IN ONE BOOK THEN PEOPLE ALL ACCROSS THE WORLD WILL KNOW ME FOEVER!!!

So him and his crew put it all toghter (Leaving out what they thought was wrong and leaving in what would profit them the most)

So that is the history of how we ended up with The KING JAMES BIBLE

Some gay guy wanted to be remembered for somin else besides being a pole climber.

Oh yeah he quit suckin dick and turned to God

P.S. Nothin against homo's :thumbup:

and no this ain't no joke it is real history :cool:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: The Bible's History [Re: fastfred]
    #2996718 - 08/12/04 07:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Very cool Bible The history of SHAROOOOOOOMS

What strain is that????


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 2 months, 22 days
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #2999330 - 08/13/04 08:25 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

historical note: dr martinus luthers did not "reinvent the bible" ...
he was a roman catholic priest and college professor in germany in the early 1500s...
using the best tools & texts available at the time (& he was THE professor on biblical studs at wittenburg university) & translating from the original greek & hebrew texts (& not the "vulgate" latin version commonly used) into the german language was his life's work - his translation is still used today in germany & austria, by roman catholics & lutherans alike...
he did translate the jewish texts commonly called "the apocryha" (which are scattered throughout "the old testament" in r.c. bibles) but they were commonly collected together & printed in smaller type sandwiched between OT & NT in many "protestant bibles"... (they were call "apocrypha" (meaning "hidden") because it was thought the the supposed original hebrew texts were lost, and available only in greek &/or latin versions, unlike all other OT scriptures --- & not apocryphal in the derivative definition of spurious or falsified terxts...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 2 months, 22 days
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #2999376 - 08/13/04 08:52 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

now, as to the historical veracity of jewish & christian scriptures (& the sacred texts of other relgious tradtions), & as to the various "agendas" of the authors, the compilers, the translaters, & editors through the ages... well, that's another kettle of fish, eh?
biblical sholarship can be a fascinating area of study - for professionals in the field as well as lay folk...
most other world religions ouside of the "religions of abraham" (the monotheistic big 3 of judaism, christianity, & islam) are able to embrace the concept of scripture as embodiment of myth... but much of christianity & islam (& to a lesser extent, some of judaism) insists that holy writ is 100% historical fact... (some are able to grasp joseph campbell's stance that a religious mythos can hold spiritual truths deeper than mere historic facts...)
there have been some pretty heavy-duty threads here about "the bible - whence & whither" here over the past couple/few years (as well as some decent suggested supplemental reading for studying the phenomenon of christianity...
hey hey hey...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinespooky123
Stranger
Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 18
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #3001262 - 08/13/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The Emperors, Papal Authorities, etc... didn't distort the Bible. They distorted their teachings and practices. The Bible wasn't mass produced until the printing press and was slowly translated. No one read the Bible but the Priest. You wouldn't know if he was lying or not because he was your only source... Their word was taken as the truth for no one knew any different since the Bible was a rare item to own. THe masses definitely weren't wealthy enough to own one


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: The Bible's History [Re: spooky123]
    #3001562 - 08/13/04 05:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Dude did you think I was tell a tall story about King James?????
The bible as we know it today came from the history lesson above. I was serious. In my second year at bible college I chose king James as a study subject
You are very wrong about the slooow translation, it happened over 4 years. You are right in the fact that people could not afford hand copies and therebye not really knowing truth.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: The Bible's History [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3001635 - 08/13/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

the King James version was just a flowery version meant to persuade..


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: The Bible's History [Re: vampirism]
    #3001664 - 08/13/04 06:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Have you read any of it????
Or have you read any other teachings to make such a judgement????


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,321
Loc: On the Border
Re: The Bible's History [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3003203 - 08/14/04 03:01 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

King James did a major edit and rewrite...then he died an atheist...pretty funny...prophetic as well.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: The Bible's History [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3005453 - 08/14/04 10:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah and he died gay.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineHoodedForestDwellr
Terrorist/Musician

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 225
Loc: North West US
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: The Bible's History [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3006106 - 08/15/04 07:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

To really read the bible we should learn the old languages...my friend just started taking Hebrew lessons, and I wanna too...number 1 - so we can Really read the bible and unlock a few more things, maybe.


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--- "As your attorny I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine." - Dr. Gonzo


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HoodedForestDwellr]
    #3006413 - 08/15/04 09:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I wish I could learn the old tounge my self. One of my professors back in school told me reading the text as it truly was was like comparing night to day


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible's History [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #3006448 - 08/15/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

the bible is a social tool used for conditioning people


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinetnecseda
birther to none
Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 349
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
A little thing called love [Re: HerbanShaman]
    #3006680 - 08/15/04 10:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

we all have bibles,we just have a diffrent name.stop reading a book that you know has had some changes,i mean,read it,but stop following it to every damn word.And church,are serious about God wanting you to sit in a church for an hour of your day on what is it,umm,sunday?You know when you could be doing something else like helping everyone and loving everyone,and when you love everyone,you love god,just for short terms,we are god.if you don't see god in everyones eyes,your missing your heart.from what i've heard about jesus,he seems pretty cool,but i have a feeling he's not the "only son of god".Whoever came up with that one was gay and wanted to control people.I mean,how else to control people by telling them they can't be entirly holy?You know,start using your hearts and your minds,and if you don't have those,look inside yourself,you don't have to be so stupid all the time and dependent on words printed for power.I'm anti religious and pro-jesus.I mean,the concertual idea of jesus,a loving human being.I was at a fair the other day,and there where some christianity tents.So yea i went into one.THis guy sat down and talked to me about it,and guess what,they were handing out sticks with colored beads on them!!!YAY!But you had to be 21(damn).Well this guy explained the color of beads to chrisitianity,so i guess that means the blind,color blind,and retarded are to ill to understand the concepts of chritianity.This man,he prayed for me.It HURT ME!!!!*Wah*He said "Lord,if you exist....."WHOA....talk about understating your faith....i tell this guy how i feel peoples energy and how i can feel the earth and grass...and do you believe it,he looks at me like i'm nuts,LIKE I'M THE CRAZY ONE!!And i tell him pretty much all we need is love and not a book,and he just becomes bewildered.If you ask me,christianity is another word for satan.Maybe some of the people that wrote it thought it was pretty funny to put an ironic twist on things,like write aobut good and evil,and make billions believe in it,and turn them evil.It was probably just a joke taken way too seriously.Language is a barrier,get over that a look into your minds,hearts,and souls......and love.


Edited by tnecseda (08/15/04 10:23 PM)


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: A little thing called love [Re: tnecseda]
    #3007309 - 08/16/04 12:45 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You sound angry and confused?
Sometimes people who have been put in the postion of talking in public about things of God and the Bible should keep there mouths shut!
Because your anger is the result.
It is sad.

I hope you take the time to understand not to put the Bible and Christians all in one basket. You would be allowing yourself to be robbed.
The words of God can be found in the Bible but, so can the words of man.
The relationship you build with God, in private, gives you the understanding to tell the difference.
You must trust me when I say this...... It is God not people you must look to. And if you truly want to know the truth. You will find it alone reading and talking to the unseen.
I wish you peace and good feelings

The Nuckle :hippie:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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