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Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice?
    #6424877 -

I find myself at a crossroads.

On the one hand, my spiritual practice has matured a bit since I originally started, and more and more I am seeing the value of a sort of 'pilgrimage' to find a suitable teacher.

On the other hand, I am still in college. I fear that if I leave now, I will not be able to support myself comfortably for the rest of my life. I fear I may end up doing some menial job that I don't enjoy at all. Given the choice, I would rather do something that I enjoy and that can benefit others.

However, I think that I could be of the most service to others by attaining that liberation which is no-attainment, and I think the best way for me to do that would be to find a good teacher.

So I've got a bit of a dilemma. Do I give up the materialistic world and scholarship in order to find a teacher and find liberation? Or do I continue school (in order to be qualified for an enjoyable, beneficial job) while practicing in my free time (which is made difficult by being surrounded by temptation and almost no individuals who also are in pursuit of liberation)?

I post this here because I have a deep respect for most of the posters here. Any advice or suggestions or anecdotes would be greatly appreciated.

:heart:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6424999 -

Can't you just finish your college and then go find spiritual fulfillment?
I say that because, in this way, you are able to chose freely. Maybe you won't want to return to the materialistic world... but maybe you will, so in that case you have a diploma and can work something you like.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6425101 -

MushroomTrip said:
Can't you just finish your college and then go find spiritual fulfillment?
I say that because, in this way, you are able to chose freely. Maybe you won't want to return to the materialistic world... but maybe you will, so in that case you have a diploma and can work something you like.



So... I am in the same predicament. I have changed my major to religion, and I plan on doing some study abroads before college ends for me. I am currently a 2nd semester sophmore so I have two years left. After college I plan to travel a lot, maybe do some Peace Corps. I think this time between finishing college and my travels I will find what I need. Currently though I am attaining what I need in my self and not looking for the guidance of others. I am attending meditation/yoga classes and talking with other people - I find that is my best way.

Here is what we all know, but are afraid to face... even me so I am not saying this like I am there yet. But, it was shown to me once so I somewhat know the ways...

It is in us all. We do not need the help or mentoring from another. When did Buddha finally find his peace? When he went out leaving the old ways and did his own thing. Do your own thing man. I have been wondering about finding a teacher as well. I don't think you can go out there and just find a teacher like people say... they will come to you. When you are ready it will come to you. You do not need to "seek" just be. Do some intense meditation. Try and free yourself from attachments. Do not seek, just let be - that is the thing we all have trouble with.

That is what I have trouble with at least. I seek to find enlightenment when it is already here. I am trying to allow it to be in me without trying if that makes sense. It is hard and not fun. Though, I know it is right.. I have my faith in God, who is me, and you, and everything, and nothing.

This is my path, the pathless path.

---

Side note - I am wondering what good it does to learn about things like this. Should we all not find it in ourselves? Learning certain techniques is alright I guess, but everyone is different and has another way of getting there. I think I may cut off practicing learned ways, and do what feels right to me. Constructive criticism?

Oops don't mean to steal the thread. :hug:


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6425148 -

Well it's not so much a matter of finding spiritual fulfillment outside of myself. For me it's more that I'm looking for an environment and a community that's more conducive to peace and awakening.

As it is now, my environment and community is very busy, filled with people seeking fulfillment through all sorts of means: drugs, sex, knowledge, possessions, power, admiration, beauty. But as for me, though my mind often leans towards those things, ultimately I don't think I'll be able to find lasting fulfillment or satisfaction or peace in those things which are by their very nature transient.

So I really don't know what to do. I don't mean in any way to try to escape from the world of man or run away from it, as that would itself be a form of aversion and selfishness. I just think a different environment (perhaps a monastic one) would be more conducive to peace and awakening. Yet I also have a desire to spend my life doing something I enjoy, in the service of others. Without a college degree, I know my choices would be extremely limited.

I have considered and still do consider waiting until I graduate before setting out, but I figure that if I seriously want to do this, and have it as my highest goal, then why postpone it in favor of a worldly goal?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6425163 -

According to the Kabbalah, when are ready for your Tzaddik(enlightened teacher), they will come into your life. It's not a matter of looking. You must simply continue to work on perfecting yourself until the time is right. Interestingly enough, it says the same about one's soulmate.


--------------------

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6425201 -

I see what you mean by finding a better place for you. And I see nothing wrong with that, but I also know that once you started something, that best thing you can do is finish it. Only in that way you can truly pass on to the next level with your lesson learned. Maybe your college years will help you in the future, not necessarily by having a career and a job well payed, but as forming you as a wise person. By leaving something unfinished you create a precedent so you're in the danger of repeating it, leaving many things started but unfinished.
Maybe there is an important lesson for you to learn along with your college experience, maybe the only thing you'll learn is patience but still it's something very important and something that you'll need in your life.
Anyway, this doesn't mean that you'll just have to settle with that. Evolution includes knowledge which leads to diversity. Traveling, having to know many types of life style, people, traditions and mentalities. And finding yourself in all these, completing yourself...
Take thins time to meditate and find your strength.
Al in all it is your decision and you should do what you feel, but don't rush into anything just because you believe that by being your top priority you have to give everything else up. That's a preconceived idea which leads to confusion.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6425234 -

I have heard the same thing. But I'm afraid it may breed a sort of passivity. Historically, almost all of the awakened ones went out in search of a teacher. They didn't just sit around doing whatever it was they did and hope for a teacher to find them. They left their homes and their 'comfort zones' in search of teachers.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6425251 -

if you want a community more mindful of spiritual matters 1) join an "intentional community." 2) move somewhere else, i recomend asheville nc, eugene oregon, denver colorado or seattle washington they have more 'real' things going on than most cities.

do what feels right, not what "is" right. i know of a guy who has a rocket science degree and hes a pizza delivery man. says he hates rocket science.

maybe take a semester off college? hitchike to burning man? join a community? be a mountain climber for a summer?

backdoorjobs.com is a good site if you want to 'get away' from the bullshit that life throws at you.

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: Maitereya]
    #6425268 -

Even if you finish college, you'll probably still end up at some crappy menial job that you hate. Go have some fun while you're still young. There's no law that says you have to go to college when you're 20.

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6425279 -

The material and spiritual are one. You might find that the place that you seek, seeks a different form of aversion

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6425316 -

It is not passive at all to work on perfecting oneself. If all you are doing is waiting, then you're not doing it right. What you should be doing is actively seeking wisdom from sources that are within reach. I have not found my tzaddik yet, but in the meantime, I find wisdom in several sources, by reading books that I find enlightening, as well as practicing daily meditation and prayer rituals.

Personally, I had a rather unfortunate experience in seeking a teacher. When I moved to Portland, I found a group here called "The Gnostic Academy." Initially, I was enthusiastic to find fellow gnostics, and looked forward to becoming an initiate into their order. I went to their classes every week. However, as time went on, I become more and more disillusioned with them, and eventually left in disgust from teachings that I found ignorant, arrogant, and hypocritical(ask Markos about their founder, Samael Aun Waer). So rather try to find the perfect teacher for me right now, I find wisdom in the books I read, and seek to perfect my mind from within, knowing that when the time is right, I will find the right teacher for me.

As far as the environment, I know what it's like to be in a materialistic dump(my college was preppy as hell). But it's largely about the friends you keep, and even in the preppy college that I went to, I found friends who were very much into spirituality, and in fact helped reawaken a sense of spirituality within me.

Ultimately, I'd say go with your gut. Into your intuition is really telling you that you need to leave college, then you've got to do what you've got to do. But realize that we have more of a duty than to simply seek enlightenment for ourselves. Each of us is charged with our own tikkun(mending of the world). Everyone's path involves something different, and yours may or may not include finishing college. That's for you to decide. But don't try to be a hero by forcing enlightenment all at once. Take it in stride, as your situation allows.


--------------------

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6427457 -

As I see it, one can forget about almost all human teachers. The really only best one is nature itself !
I have personally not found one actual or historical teacher with whom I could totally agree. Nature and contemplation teached me all I had to know.
And, yea, I stopped college 2 times and have now no degree. I didn't want a too focused perspective on a special subject, I wanted to do things in a more practical and common intelligent way. It works, but it is very hard, but at the other hand, the reward for what you can give people there is much greater and 'warmer'.
I constantly struggle and am constantly on the jump for an exodus, but my goal was to learn about the cave of the lion, the roots of earthly evil at its source and then, by being there, perhaps do something for a change, or at least write something about it.
Without that goal, I couldn't stand the pressure, but I also have to reactivate my spiritual path a bit more, but learning from nature is a quite easy and comfortable thing to do :wink:

I don't know if this helps, but it's a description of my momentary situation.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6427469 -

dblaney said:
On the other hand, I am still in college. I fear that if I leave now, I will not be able to support myself comfortably for the rest of my life. I fear I may end up doing some menial job that I don't enjoy at all. Given the choice, I would rather do something that I enjoy and that can benefit others.



Let me ask you a quick question. How many years do you expect to live?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6427888 -

Realistically, there is no way for me to answer that, as in two minutes I might walk down the hall, trip on the stairs, break my neck and die on the way to the hospital. There is no way to know.

However, the 'average' human life span is 70 or 80 years these days, but with modern medicine, I suspect that without any unforeseen event, I will live to maybe 80 or 90 or so.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6428122 -

You can do both.

I say, stay in college. You need the education, the discipline, the experiences, the memories, the lessons. All of these are essential. To you.

You don't need to 'give up the materialistic world.' The materialistic world is only an illusion of one's addictions to materialistic things, but a materialistic world itself only exists in your head. But as long as you are open minded and aware and understanding of such things, you do not live in such a world.

The best teacher is yourself. You will hear this time and time again. The best lessons, come from your own living life. It's hard to learn from somebody else, when you really have no idea what it's like in their shoes. All your searching for is words that can help you consider new ideas and beliefs, but it's up to you to make sense out of it, and apply it into your life.

Life is just an empty shell waiting for you to give it meaning. Just live, love, and learn. The world is but a canvas -- Paint your world the way you'd like to see it.

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: lysergicide]
    #6428171 -

That's the easiest question I've ever answered.

Finish school. You can't be very old. Your life has so much time left. Finish school. Your spiritual practice isn't going anywhere and if it does then that in itself should tell you something.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6428234 -

Quote:
dblaney said:So I've got a bit of a dilemma. Do I give up the materialistic world and scholarship in order to find a teacher and find liberation? Or do I continue school (in order to be qualified for an enjoyable, beneficial job) while practicing in my free time (which is made difficult by being surrounded by temptation and almost no individuals who also are in pursuit of liberation)?


There are others on your path who share your pursuit, though perhaps they are farther back on the path and can't see what liberation really means.  (I regret not seeing you over winter break, I had no idea you were going back to school so soon - but I don't think it really matters in the long run.  :wink: :laugh: )

I have thought about this many times.  Many nights I've dreamt of stealing away and making my way somehow to the Amazon, there to seek out a wise ayahuasquero and become what I was born to be...

And yet here I am, doing the same things as you, going to school, getting drunk on the weekends, listening to music and hanging with friends, and still finding time to conquer my demons and face reality with whatever courage and clarity of intent I can muster.  It feels so lonely sometimes, wishing there was someone who would love me unconditionally, understand me fully, and guide me gently.  But I realize that I am not alone, that every human seeks liberation and some merely have no intellectual, spiritual, cultural, social, or familial framework for understanding the nature of their reality.  But it's all about love anyway, and love is a simple thing that you can communicate and build upon every day, wherever you are.

I have found my teachers in the words and books of great spiritual seekers of the past and present, in the revelatory sacraments of psilocybin and cannabis, and in people like you, man!  :laugh:  Speaking on a personal level, I would be lost on my path today without the guidance you've given me, whether you know that or not - not only through our conversations and interactions, but through the vibrations I sense emanating from you, from the wisdom I sense in the way you speak and carry yourself.

I know your path leads to liberation.  I know that in my heart. 

:sun: :mushroom2:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6428246 -

practice this pranayama for now
this is shivas pranayama

1. take three full deep breaths through your nostrils

inhale, exhale
inhale, exhale
inhale, exhale

2. close your left nostril with your right hand by reaching over your head
and take one deep breath through your nostril

inhale, exhale

repeat step 1
repeat step 2 with your left hand and your right nostril


do this until you have taken three complete breaths through each nostril

you will have taken 18 full breaths through your nostrils
and 6 through your individual nostrils


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: dblaney]
    #6428696 -

Renunciation belongs to monastic traditions, pure and simple. I struggled with becoming a monastic in the Catholic tradition. I was attracted to Franciscans, like Thomas Merton was, but they didn't offer him the deeper contemplative life which enjoined silence. I was invited to join the Trappists (which is what Merton became, when becoming a Carthusian hermit became untenable in wartime France). One day, after at least two years of struggle, and after having met Benedictines, Franciscan Cappuchins, a Trappist (Cistercian), it suddenly occurred to me: "I love women!" Not only that, but all these monks I was meeting were Gay! Leaving women for life was no big deal. Moreover, I became suspicious of the one Trappist's friendliness. I once invited him to drop acid and I asked him what he thought would emerge during the session. He said: "My sexuality." So much for dropping acid with a virginal 40+ year old sexually repressed monk. I'm straight, and one doesn't have to be homophobic to have seen that we weren't gonna be after the same kind of Experience. I don't know your sexual orientation, but monasteries are not the optimal enviornment for a Gay lifestyle if one is Gay.

As to non-cloistered renunciation: a Methodist friend from high school thought that "the ultimate" expression of spirituality was to hit the road with little more than a Bible in hand, and practice that sort of wandering mendicant preacher path that the New Testament describes. It means relying completely on God and 'Que sera sera' - 'whatever will be will be,' which probably means a lot of trouble with both highwaymen and cops alike, being regarded as a nut, a bum, or both. Unlike India which is a culture built on spiritual stages of life: student, householder, renunciant and sannyasin. The renunciant is essentially a retired person (I am 9 years from this stage based on my contract). A retired person usually, well, retires from much activity in the world and may live on a reduced income, unless one's pension (rare), investments, social security or whatever else end up paying out more than work income. The sannyasin stage is not recognized in the USA and thus the social structure is antagonistic towards it. People will not gladly give you food in urban areas, and you'll starve or freeze in most regions of the USA (unlike India).

The Dharma is here and now. Your Karma has placed you within the USA and its social structures. I recommend that you screen the grain from the chaff of romantic notions as I had to do. I was Blessed with circumstances that allowed me to 'follow my bliss' in American universities and so I did. At the end, I did obtain employment in a school system which, with a Doctorate getting me  additional money on my base salary, and having to work only til 3:40 PM, M-F, 212 days of the year, after 20 years I have learned to extend my spiritual practices through every day, work or holiday [holyday]. That's just my trip, but if I had left college and NOT gone back in 1973, life would have been more difficult - I would have been more preoccupied with the denser aspects of life like survival (still driving a truck in NJ?!  :eek:)

Temptation is in our minds even more than in the world. The tall blonde on highheeled wedgies with huge implants spilling out of her tight top that I saw in Whole Foods yesterday, causing me to step on my own tongue (which still hurts  :smile:) is just another woman. That I have inordinate attachment to certain 'form' is my problem, that the blonde goes through life designing her appearance to elicit my type of reaction from men is her problem. I would rather she have the freedom to do so than be hidden under clothing as women in the Middle East are forced to do. Men over there are so spiritually primitive that they refuse to struggle with temptation, blame the woman (not take responsibility for their own minds) and physically assault women for showing a bare wrist!

Look, I would not have been able to wander around in my own country, let alone in India like Bhagwan Das did in the 60s and 70s. Wandering around Russia as the anonymous pilgrim did in The Way of the Pilgrim wasn't gonna happen, neither do I speak Hebrew or Arabic. I'm an American - this is the 'given' of my existential situation. You are too, Thank God for it! Be an American college student. There is nothing in that that is going to be any more preventative of spiritual growth. Learn to say no. I said no to more girls in college in the Quaaluded 70s than I said yes to, and those were mistakes. Lust isn't the monopoly of college life, it just seems that way because everyone is crowded together on a campus for a few years. Workplaces, the market place, the world at large is rife with lust, anger, laziness, worry and doubt (the Five Buddhist Hindrances to Enlightenment) - they abound everywhere. You've been dealt a good hand (relative to most of the world's population). Play it for Goodness sakes!

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/05/07 10:23 PM)

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Re: Pilgrimage / Renunciation / Home Leaving / Advice? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6428733 -

Silversoul said:
According to the Kabbalah, when are ready for your Tzaddik(enlightened teacher), they will come into your life. It's not a matter of looking. You must simply continue to work on perfecting yourself until the time is right. Interestingly enough, it says the same about one's soulmate.



I believe that whole-heartedly, and I'm much more relaxed and much happier because of that.


--------------------

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Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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