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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off
    #4675088 - 09/17/05 06:58 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I keep encountering these people that insist there is nothing after death because we as living can't observe it with our sensory organs. To me this is a ludicrous idea, that conscious beings randomly pop into being without ever being before and without previous cause, and then out of being again into nothingness. It completely violates the conservation of energy. The only thing we know is consciousness, the one that is aware of ourselves and environment. So how can you say with certainty that the most basic fabric of our existence is unlike any other phenomena in that it is causeless, comes from total nothingness and is ultimately destroyed. Science shows nothing can be truly destroyed, it just takes another form.

And yet arrogant people who think that all their opinions are vindicated by "science" and "logic" argue tirelessly that death means the complete end of conscious energy and that nothing follows. That's like saying "Even though we know the earth is round, since I cannot see over that hill I am justified in presuming that nothing exists beyond it because I can't see it from here."

To me it's a very presumptious and belligerant view. I can't say with total certainty that anything happens after we die, but viewing the universe as causal and endless I can speculate that my personal death is probobly not the end. Yet the 'scientific' types insist that it almost certain that everything ceases to exist at death, as if you could have a present seperate from a past and future.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4675121 - 09/17/05 07:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

yeah, it's pretty retarded when they dismiss things for having no proof yet they have no proof for what they're so adamantly arguing either.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4675125 - 09/17/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

i know exactly what you mean, einstein showed that everything is energy and consciousness is just a form of energy. in my experience the entire universe is built on consciousness and being or awareness can certainly exist without a a body, mind and intellect. yet atheists seem to refuse to accept this as even a remote possibilty. they cling to their outdated materialistic world view just as strongly as a christian clings to their beliefs about the afterlife. one thing i learned from taking psychedelics was that its quite possible that nearly everything i think is wrong, i just dont understand how these people can be so sure they know everything, especially when modern physics opens the door for existances beyond the world we can sense.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4675128 - 09/17/05 07:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I keep encountering these people that insist there is nothing after death because we as living can't observe it with our sensory organs.

Do you believe in other things you can't see or detect in any way whatsoever?

It completely violates the conservation of energy.

In what way? What energy do atheists claim vanishes when you die? Information (the organization of neural connections in your brain) is not energy.

Science shows nothing can be truly destroyed, it just takes another form.

This isn't so. Information can be destroyed. From all available evidence, everything you are is the arrangement of neurons in your brain. Once that's destroyed at death, that information vanishes and so do you.

So how can you say with certainty that the most basic fabric of our existence is unlike any other phenomena

Those who do not believe in an afterlife say just the opposite. They say that the 'most basic fabric of our existence' is LIKE every other phenomena (not unlike) and so is destroyed at death. You are the one saying that consciousness is somehow different than the rest of the things we see around us.

Assigning special significance to consciousness is like how hundreds of years ago special significance was assigned to the Earth which was placed at the center of God's grand universe. Today we know this was the hight of arrogance and completely wrong. In a few hundred years, when the biochemical mechanisms that give rise to consciousness are found, we will look at the idea that human consciousness is somehow special the same way we now look at the idea that the Earth is somehow special.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Deviate]
    #4675134 - 09/17/05 07:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

einstein showed that everything is energy and consciousness is just a form of energy

Consciousness is not a form of energy; it is an arrangement of neural connections. Or at least that's what the currently-available data suggests.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4675161 - 09/17/05 07:31 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"Consciousness is not a form of energy; it is an arrangement of neural connections. Or at least that's what the currently-available data suggests. "

neural connections are made of matter and matter is a form an energy.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Deviate]
    #4675162 - 09/17/05 07:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
in my experience the entire universe is built on consciousness and being or awareness can certainly exist without a a body, mind and intellect.




You have been without a body, mind, and intellect?

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4675166 - 09/17/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"You have been without a body, mind, and intellect? "

yes, ive been in a state of pure awareness.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4675184 - 09/17/05 07:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Where did you come from then? There is a blank void of nothingness before my birth and first memories; I believe the same will happen after death.

It's obviously not a scientific opinion to say there's no life after death, as science hasn't verified it and there's no evidence either way. But I'd most definitely say it's a logical one, seeing as reality appears to be the sum total of our brain, and when the brain stops functioning, so will the individual reality. Consciousness doesn't require some special laws; the law of conservation applies to the neurons and matter making up your consciousness, but not the software itself.

Your argument is like arguing that Windows 95 will always run in a computer, no matter how rusted it is. Windows 95 once ran on the hardware, so obviously Windows 95 must turn into some other software. Well, not exactly; that's a twisting of logic, and is obviously false. The law of conservation only applies to the hardware, as the metals and chips become less of a computer and more of their natural constituents. But the software requires the computer to be in good, working condition; you can't argue a burnt, rusted piece of scrap metal on the ground is running some sort of program.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4675198 - 09/17/05 07:49 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

" Where did you come from then? There is a blank void of nothingness before my birth and first memories; I believe the same will happen after death.

It's obviously not a scientific opinion to say there's no life after death, as science hasn't verified it and there's no evidence either way. But I'd most definitely say it's a logical one, seeing as reality appears to be the sum total of our brain, and when the brain stops functioning, so will the individual reality. Consciousness doesn't require some special laws; the law of conservation applies to the neurons and matter making up your consciousness, but not the software itself.

Your argument is like arguing that Windows 95 will always run in a computer, no matter how rusted it is. Windows 95 once ran on the hardware, so obviously Windows 95 must turn into some other software. Well, not exactly; that's a twisting of logic, and is obviously false. The law of conservation only applies to the hardware, as the metals and chips become less of a computer and more of their natural constituents. But the software requires the computer to be in good, working condition; you can't argue a burnt, rusted piece of scrap metal on the ground is running some sort of program. "

no, see you are confusing your mind with consciousness. windows 95 may shut down but you agree that the computer still exists. now what if the mind sprung from a reality that is consciouss? in other words, what if an awareness is the basic substance of reality from which all else sprung forth? the unfed flame.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4675209 - 09/17/05 07:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You sound a bit arrogant and beligerant yourself. Other people's opinions should not "piss you off".


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Deviate]
    #4675217 - 09/17/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

neural connections are made of matter and matter is a form an energy.

But the information they represent is not energy.

If you write on a chalkboard, the information there is not energy, even though the chalk itself is energy and you expended energy to form the writing.

If you erase the board, the information you put there vanishes completely from existence. You can argue that it's still in your head, but that doesn't count because it was in your head already before you wrote on the board.

So if, from all evidence, you are the net sum of the arrangement of your neurons, and if those neurons are destroyed, it follows that you also are destroyed.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4675222 - 09/17/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

super, except you neglect identity in terms of the death of the brain. The brain interprets the passage of time, as that part shuts down- where, exactly, is death?

This brings to point that our current existence may be the perceived result of a previous death- which in a way it was-- our birth.

subjectivity completely trumps objectivity in something like death

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4675233 - 09/17/05 08:07 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

again you are refering to the mind/ego. i have no doubt that when i die i will lose this mortal sense of identity. i also have virtually no doubt that outside the mind there is a basic existance/ground of being type thing from which the mind springs. reality isn't linear.

Edited by Deviate (09/17/05 08:11 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Deviate]
    #4675247 - 09/17/05 08:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm referring to the only thing we know exists, the brain. Anything else is just a made up explanation giving some special significance to consciousness just like the special significance once given to the Earth by placing it at the center of the universe.

Neither the Earth nor consciousness are metaphysical and one day, when consciousness is explained and even recreated in a machine, people will look back at ideas that consciousness is more than ordinary biochemistry the same way we look back at the Earth-centered universe today.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4675255 - 09/17/05 08:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

" I'm referring to the only thing we know exists, the brain. Anything else is just a made up explanation giving some special significance to consciousness just like the special significance once given to the Earth by placing it at the center of the universe."

the only thing we know exists is experience.

"Neither the Earth nor consciousness are metaphysical and one day, when consciousness is explained and even recreated in a machine, people will look back at ideas that consciousness is more than ordinary biochemistry the same way we look back at the Earth-centered universe today."

so is a leg consciouss? what makes complex biochemisty ordinary?

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4675261 - 09/17/05 08:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

have you ever touched your brain? Touched it, licked it?

Really now, the beauty is that there is a fundamental uncertainty to the Universe.

You're speaking certainly about unverifiable things quite often.
Quote:



Neither the Earth nor consciousness are metaphysical and one day, when consciousness is explained and even recreated in a machine, people will look back at ideas that consciousness is more than ordinary biochemistry the same way we look back at the Earth-centered universe today.



Super, mr. nostradamus. What other prophecies are you full of? When when, explain it in the present. You're falling back on something currently useless; essentially using the same fairy tale policy you're voicing your disapproval of.

consciousness may or may not be explained. In terms of your lifetime, it probably won't; effectively this explanation will never exist in your perception of the Universe. What now?

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: vampirism]
    #4675288 - 09/17/05 08:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
super, except you neglect identity in terms of the death of the brain. The brain interprets the passage of time, as that part shuts down- where, exactly, is death?

This brings to point that our current existence may be the perceived result of a previous death- which in a way it was-- our birth.

subjectivity completely trumps objectivity in something like death




So if you're not there to interpret time, it doesn't exist? What about everyone else, for who time continues on as normal?

And how does this invalidate death being the end in any way? Death is simply the shutting down of the hardware, and therefore, the subjective software. While I haven't experienced it yet, I would venture to say death is the only thing with no subjectivity involved, since all the processes used to create subjectivity (your mind, perceptions, sense of time) are now off. Is the period before birth also "trumped by subjectivity", despite the fact that there was nothing there to create subjectivity in the first place?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: vampirism]
    #4675301 - 09/17/05 08:31 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

have you ever touched your brain? Touched it, licked it?

Eew! I've heard of food for thought but geez...  :tongue:

You're falling back on something currently useless

About as useless as speculating about what happens after death, eh?

essentially using the same fairy tale policy you're voicing your disapproval of

Not exactly. I'm using historical precedent to speculate about the future.

-At one time, rain was a 'special' gift from the Gods, today it isn't.
-At one time, the Earth was a 'special' creation placed at the center of the universe, today it isn't.
-At one time, it was believed that a machine that could beat the intuition of the 'special' human intellect at chess could never exist, today it does.
-At one time, it was believed that a machine would never be constructed that could understand the complexities of the 'special' human languages, today you can buy one at CompUSA.

From this and tons of other examples of things that used to be considered 'special' because we couldn't explain them at the time, and from the continuous flow of new discoveries in neurological science, I reasonably speculate that one day, this 'special' thing, consciousness, will be explained and even reproduced.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4675310 - 09/17/05 08:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


So if you're not there to interpret time, it doesn't exist?




That's right. From your point of view it won't exist. I imagine it's the same sort of effect as getting sucked into a black hole. Obviously dead people are dead from your perspective.

Quote:


And how does this invalidate death being the end in any way



Because if it's the end, it suggests you would stop at that point. But if the point doesn't exist on your timeline, where is your death?

The fact is that death is unpredictable from a subjective point of view. Absolutely unpredictable. All that stuff I said about death- bullshit. But it's just as good as any other idea about what happens.


Quote:

I would venture to say death is the only thing with no subjectivity involved, since all the processes used to create subjectivity (your mind, perceptions, sense of time) are now off.



I would venture to say the opposite. Super. Neither of us has any experience in being dead... I really hate the software analogy since it's horrible and inaccurate comparing computers to the human brain, but what would the software say about its own existence? On? Off?

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4675323 - 09/17/05 08:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

no, rain is still a special gift from the gods. Who cares about atmospheric pressure and such minor implementation details? It's really just a Western thing to suggest that explaining and knowing something somehow invalidates its importance.

as for
Quote:


From this and tons of other examples of things that used to be considered 'special' because we couldn't explain them at the time, and from the continuous flow of new discoveries in neurological science, I reasonably speculate that one day, this 'special' thing, consciousness, will be explained and even reproduced.





The problem is that some things will never be explained and reproduced ( by us at least ) because of the finite existence of our species. I'm not even going to touch on the idea that some things simply cannot be explained since its a futile argument in this situation.


and yes, speculating about death is stupid. but its fun.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: vampirism]
    #4675337 - 09/17/05 08:42 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

It's really just a Western thing to suggest that explaining and knowing something somehow invalidates its importance.

Where are you getting this? Explaining something has nothing to do with its importance.

The problem is that some things will never be explained and reproduced

Now who's speculating wildly?

At least my speculation is based on history repeating itself. Your claim that some things will NEVER be explained is absolutist and baseless.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4675373 - 09/17/05 08:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


At least my speculation is based on history repeating itself. Your claim that some things will NEVER be explained is absolutist and baseless.





No, not really. There are an essentially infinite number of things to explain ( let's see: the current position of every single subatomic particle in the universe, for example --. Hell, if they're non-deterministic, their specific movement will never be explained )

What? that doesn't count as an explanation of something? What does then? The bible supposedly explains absolutely everthing, just that it's open to interpretation.


Quote:


At least my speculation is based on history repeating itself



What history is this? I'm under the impression that for every discovery, people come up with more questions. ohshit. 1000 years ago there were how many ongoing scientific ( or equivalent ) questions? How about 100 years ago? And now?

bummer, I guess everything WON'T be explained after all. Your assertion is that we explain lots of stuff all the time, and you're right. My assertion is that we'll never finish explaining things since they're infinite from a pragmatic point of view. The only stretch in my argument is that the human race is infinite, and that's not really a stretch because our genetic code is deterioratating with time; eventually we'll evolve or die off.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: vampirism]
    #4676209 - 09/18/05 12:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with Deviate on this, the argument against consciousness being eternal rests on either a mistaken understanding or denial of the distinction between brain and mind. This is the difference between perciever and percieved. My brain is the electrochemical structure that organizes my experience, but the 'mind/consciousness' is what percieves these processes, gives them life. Mind is light in a dark room, like the beginning of the genesis myth, before awareness all is void and nonexistent. Without consciousness the brain could not exist because nothing would be aware of it's functioning. Without the capital 'M' Mind nothing would exist at all, because experience would be impossible.

I find the people that disagree with my argument in conversation also make no distinction between the validity of the experience of A.I. computer or machine and a living organism. Because if there is no consciousness beyond information, we should be able to make a machine who's experience is also real, or at least as unreal as our own. There is no distinction between automatons and living things.
I think unless somehow inanimate objects really are aware, there is a distinction between living and machine.

The process of information is NOT consciousness. Thought is NOT consciousness. Reaction is not and neither is action. Those are all functions of the brain. The Mind is what KNOWS the information, and by that I don't mean remember or retain, but brings the information into experience and being. You can program a machine to think, or to behave like a human, but as long as nobody is home to make it's experience substantial then it KNOWS nothing. Obviously that is not true of us.

Death is when the information and the programming end, but the Mind transcends all of those things and cannot die. It is the source of all existence.

BTW, I haven't even addressed the issue of causality.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4676331 - 09/18/05 12:52 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The Mind is what KNOWS the information, and by that I don't mean remember or retain, but brings the information into experience and being.

The available evidence disagrees with you:

Neurological science has shown that the comprehension of metaphors occurs in a region of the brain called the Angular Gyrus.

If you say to a neurologically healthy person "The walls have ears", they will comprehend two meanings: the literal one that doesn't makes sense because walls do not have ears, and the metaphorical one which does makes sense in that someone may be listening.

However, when someone with damage to the region of the brain containing the Angular Gyrus hears those words, he becomes confused because all he can grasp is the contradiction in the literal words; he knows that walls do not have ears. The metaphor is beyond his ability to comprehend, and even when it's explained to him, he persists in asking how walls could have ears.

It is obvious that the mechanism (the brain) is correctly delivering all four words to the 'being' or he would not ask how walls could have ears. Why, then, would the 'being' be unable to figure out the metaphorical meaning?

I'll tell you why. Literal and metaphorical comprehension of language are two neurological sub-processes inside a larger complex of processes in the brain, and nothing more.

If, as you suggest, the 'being' is separate from the brain, and the 'being' is unable to perform so simple a function as the comprehension of metaphor when the brain's Angular Gyrus is not functioning, how much more crippled will the 'being' be when the rest of the brain stops functioning at death? The answer is that the 'being' will be fully crippled; it will cease to exist just like the comprehension of metaphor ceased to exist in the damaged brain.

This is one example (there are many more I'll get into with you if you like) where neurological science has shown that what you call "bringing information into experience and being" is simply the action of a group of brain cells that have evolved to process patterns of sensory input into various aspects of awareness. There is no magic, no metaphysics, no ethereal super-entity involved. There is only a brain, and when it's gone, so will be the consciousness it manifested. :frown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4676351 - 09/18/05 01:01 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You are still not getting what I am saying. You are talking about cognitive process, I am talking about something much more subtle. The analogy is that the mind is like 'Clear Light' it is transparent and it doesn't do anything, it has no characeristics of it's own. It is utterly formless. It is impossible to get it if you are thinking only in terms of form.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

Edited by Divided_Sky (09/18/05 01:18 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4676360 - 09/18/05 01:05 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Question for you: Do you beleive that you will be able to understand metaphores in the afterlife?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4676381 - 09/18/05 01:11 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

If my conscious energy happens to inhabit another living being with the capacity to do so.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4676416 - 09/18/05 01:19 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

So, you agree that the ability to comprehend metaphors depends on neurology and so when your body dies (barring you being reincarnated) you will be unable to understand metaphors.

--

Like the comprehension of metaphors, both sight and hearing are demonstrably neurological functions. People whose visual or auditory cortex is damaged become unable to see or hear. In fact, they become unable to even imagine images or sound even though they became blind/deaf as adults. This is because the experiencing of images and sound occur in visual and auditory cortex and surrounding structures of the brain.

Next question: How about the ability to see and hear? Will you be able to see/hear in the afterlife?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4676436 - 09/18/05 01:22 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"The available evidence disagrees with you:

Neurological science has shown that the comprehension of metaphors occurs in a region of the brain called the Angular Gyrus.

If you say to a neurologically healthy person "The walls have ears", they will comprehend two meanings: the literal one that doesn't makes sense because walls do not have ears, and the metaphorical one which does makes sense in that someone may be listening.

However, when someone with damage to the region of the brain containing the Angular Gyrus hears those words, he becomes confused because all he can grasp is the contradiction in the literal words; he knows that walls do not have ears. The metaphor is beyond his ability to comprehend, and even when it's explained to him, he persists in asking how walls could have ears."

that is the same result you would expect under my view of consciousness which you obviously do not understand.

"It is obvious that the mechanism (the brain) is correctly delivering all four words to the 'being' or he would not ask how walls could have ears. Why, then, would the 'being' be unable to figure out the metaphorical meaning?

I'll tell you why. Literal and metaphorical comprehension of language are two neurological sub-processes inside a larger complex of processes in the brain, and nothing more.

"If, as you suggest, the 'being' is separate from the brain, and the 'being' is unable to perform so simple a function as the comprehension of metaphor when the brain's Angular Gyrus is not functioning, how much more crippled will the 'being' be when the rest of the brain stops functioning at death? The answer is that the 'being' will be fully crippled; it will cease to exist just like the comprehension of metaphor ceased to exist in the damaged brain."

again, is this not exactly what i stated? the brain is the seat of the mind, what makes you think i expect the mind to function the same way when they brain changes? the fact that you are bringing up these examples merely demonstrates your lack of comprehension or inability to imagine the alternative explanations which would yeild the same results in experiments.

"This is one example (there are many more I'll get into with you if you like) where neurological science has shown that what you call "bringing information into experience and being" is simply the action of a group of brain cells that have evolved to process patterns of sensory input into various aspects of awareness. There is no magic, no metaphysics, no ethereal super-entity involved. There is only a brain, and when it's gone, so will be the consciousness it manifested. "

that's like claiming that because we observe that the sun moves around the earth the earth must be the center of the universe and any other theories of the earth's position are logically flawed. obviously the problem with this assumption is that the theory of the earth moving around the sun also allows for the observation of the sun moving around the earth from an observer on earth.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Deviate]
    #4676444 - 09/18/05 01:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

" So, you agree that the ability to comprehend metaphors depends on neurology and so when your body dies (barring you being reincarnated) you will be unable to understand metaphors.

--

Like the comprehension of metaphors, both sight and hearing are demonstrably neurological functions. People whose visual or auditory cortex is damaged become unable to see or hear. In fact, they become unable to even imagine images or sound even though they became blind/deaf as adults. This is because the experiencing of images and sound occur in visual and auditory cortex and surrounding structures of the brain.

Next question: How about the ability to see and hear? Will you be able to see/hear in the afterlife?
"

of course you need a brain to see objects. why don't you read up on some of the non materialistic theories of consciousness before asking rediculous questions like this?

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4676525 - 09/18/05 01:50 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
So, you agree that the ability to comprehend metaphors depends on neurology and so when your body dies (barring you being reincarnated) you will be unable to understand metaphors.

--

Like the comprehension of metaphors, both sight and hearing are demonstrably neurological functions. People whose visual or auditory cortex is damaged become unable to see or hear. In fact, they become unable to even imagine images or sound even though they became blind/deaf as adults. This is because the experiencing of images and sound occur in visual and auditory cortex and surrounding structures of the brain.

Next question: How about the ability to see and hear? Will you be able to see/hear in the afterlife?




Again, if I inhabit an body which sees and hears. Or rather to be less confusing, "I" will not inhabit a new body. "I" never existed in the first place, but the body and brain that are called 'me' or 'I' will cease to exist at death. "I" will not be reincarnated. The conscious energy and the causal potentialities on it however will remain, just as every moment we die and are born as a new self with consistency and continuity. Some people call this 'Karma'.

I do believe in rebirth, because I think the continium must always have forms to manifest. Just as one moment while I am alive leads to the next, so will 'my' last moment lead to another moment of birth or conception. Every moment is a product of a beginningless and endless stream of causality. It cannot begin out of nothing or disapear into nothing.

But in regard to your question, I think what you are asking is beside the point. You are talking about the shape of experience, so to speak, and I am talking about the substance.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

Edited by Divided_Sky (09/18/05 01:57 AM)

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Offlinewhite
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4678461 - 09/18/05 05:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Your claim that some things will NEVER be explained is absolutist and baseless.




G?del's proved and celebrated incompleteness theorems from 1931:

theorem 1: We can never find an all-encompassing axiomatic system which is able to prove all mathematical truths, but no falsehoods.

theorem 2;If an axiomatic system can be proven to be consistent and complete from within itself, then it is inconsistent.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: white]
    #4678515 - 09/18/05 05:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You misconstrue Godel's theorem. Incompleteness isn't about explaining, it's about proving. Some things are definitely true, but can never be proven to be true.

As it turns out, Incompleteness has actually explained quite a lot about the nature of mathematics.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (09/18/05 06:08 PM)

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Offlinewhite
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4701372 - 09/23/05 04:03 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Paralytic man rebuts scientific determinism:
sorry,there ain?t no Larry Flynt here
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/strings02/dirac/hawking/

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4702048 - 09/23/05 06:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So, you are intolerant of other people's beliefs? Just as surely as religious beliefs are spiritual beliefs, atheism and materialism are spiritual beliefs as well. To lack understanding and tolerance of these ideas is religious intolerance. To have this opinion seems just as closed minded to me.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4704496 - 09/24/05 09:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So if, from all evidence, you are the net sum of the arrangement of your neurons, and if those neurons are destroyed, it follows that you also are destroyed.





Oook Diploid, allow me to wow you.

1...You are a finite arrangement of neurons
2...The universe keeps generating finite arrangements of neurons.

See you under two stars and three moons :thumbup:

Another thing to consider: Suppose I have a beautiful ceramic platter, one of a kind.
Then I throw it to smittereens
The platter is not gone. It is merely displaced in time. Because a moment ago it still existed, and the only difference is that we're not  present in "a moment ago" anymore.

That would mean that to the dying man there is an INFINITY between his life and decomposed state. An INFINITY in which he is not dead because time stops before he ceases to be. He will NOT BE dead because Death is a state of BEING NOT which is incompatible with being a BEING. :evil:

That also means that cryogenically suspended people are not dead.

I love science. The moment you think about seemingly nihilistic concepts they smite you with awe :heart:


--------------------
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higher knowledge starts here

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Asante]
    #4704519 - 09/24/05 09:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

1...You are a finite arrangement of neurons
2...The universe keeps generating finite arrangements of neurons.




According to modern scientific theory, this is only for a finite amount of time. Not to mention, neurons are created by natural selection, so not only would another planet have to follow the exact same evolutionary path to arrive at humans, but would also have to do the almost impossible act of arranging all the neurons and their connections in the exact same way. And even then, it would just be a clone of you; you'd still be dead.

And how do we even know the universe is generating finite arrangements of neurons outside of Earth? Earth itself is extremely short-lived compared to the universe, so if humans only existed on Earth, we'd be closing the door to an atom of a crack for photons to slip out.

Quote:

Another thing to consider: Suppose I have a beautiful ceramic platter, one of a kind.
Then I throw it to smittereens
The platter is not gone. It is merely displaced in time. Because a moment ago it still existed, and the only difference is that we're not present in "a moment ago" anymore.




Yet the difference between a plate and life is that life requires the arrangement of atoms to create that full plate. Try taking apart a sperm's DNA, scattering it all over the vagina and saying, "You're just not in the moment ago!" :wink:

Quote:

That would mean that to the dying man there is an INFINITY between his life and decomposed state. An INFINITY in which he is not dead because time stops before he ceases to be. He will NOT BE dead because Death is a state of BEING NOT which is incompatible with being a BEING.




Just because his brain is too non-functioning to perceive the effects of time upon his body, it doesn't mean time ceases anymore than when someone goes to sleep. And sleep is not, to my knowledge, infinite any more than dying.

Quote:

I love science. The moment you think about seemingly nihilistic concepts they smite you with awe  :heart:




:syringe:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4704541 - 09/24/05 10:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)




From: Toward the One. Two aspects of Eternity between which our space-time existence is both 'sandwiched' and permeated. What thinkest thou?  :smile:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4704550 - 09/24/05 10:08 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And even then, it would just be a clone of you; you'd still be dead.




How will it be NOT you when it exactly replicates the definition of you. Thats like saying a glass of water can never be a glass of water.

Quote:

Yet the difference between a plate and life is that life requires the arrangement of atoms to create that full plate. Try taking apart a sperm's DNA, scattering it all over the vagina and saying, "You're just not in the moment ago!"




You took a wrong turn in following the line of thought I believe.
Let me rephrase it:

If you were alive yesterday but dead today, you are today alive yesterday. We are not in yesterday anymore, but the deceased still is. At one point after all his clock stops while ours ticks on, and that is where we part. Our watches get merely out of sync.

Quote:

Just because his brain is too non-functioning to perceive the effects of time upon his body, it doesn't mean time ceases anymore than when someone goes to sleep. And sleep is not, to my knowledge, infinite any more than dying.





Objective time, no. But perhaps we create time with our brains.

Quote:

:syringe:




Great idea!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4704652 - 09/24/05 10:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Consciousness is not a form of energy; it is an arrangement of neural connections. Or at least that's what the currently-available data suggests.



How so? And what are they defining as "consciousness"?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Asante]
    #4704808 - 09/24/05 11:37 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How will it be NOT you when it exactly replicates the definition of you. Thats like saying a glass of water can never be a glass of water.




If someone made an exact clone of you, and both of you were walking the earth, would that clone be you? Evidently, a clone may be an exact replica, but not you.

Of course, here we'd run into some major philosophical debates that would only derail this thread. For example, if a teleportation device teleported you by slicing you into billions of pieces, copying you molecule by molecule to another location but destroying your current body, would it be you? You yourself would be dead and destroyed, but there'd be an exact copy of you born at the same moment. Depends on what "you" are; are you the exact molecules that make you up, or the pattern of molecules that make you up? In the former, you die every second; in the latter, you could make an infinity of "you" but still only exist in your subjective reality.

Quote:

If you were alive yesterday but dead today, you are today alive yesterday. We are not in yesterday anymore, but the deceased still is. At one point after all his clock stops while ours ticks on, and that is where we part. Our watches get merely out of sync.




So what's the point of the present and time? The dead are just a memory from yesterday; yesterday has already passed and gone. Are you saying there's an infinite number of timelines going on? If so, what evidence or logic are you bringing this from?

The deceased isn't in yesterday, because yesterday has already collapsed into the present. You can only exist in the present, not in the past; even memories only exist in the present.

Quote:

Objective time, no. But perhaps we create time with our brains.




Create, or interpret?

Your infinity argument still makes no sense to me, and I'm wondering where you're pulling it out of. It didn't take me an infinity to go from nothingness to birth, so why would it take an infinity to go from death back to nothingness? Time would pass as always, even if our brains didn't interpret it subjectively due to the fact that they're shutting down.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Edited by Ravus (09/24/05 12:55 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4705058 - 09/24/05 12:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I love this guy.  :heart:

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4705278 - 09/24/05 01:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

To me this is a ludicrous idea, that conscious beings randomly pop into being without ever being before and without previous cause, and then out of being again into nothingness. It completely violates the conservation of energy.

Eh? What evidence do you have that conciousness is a kind of energy in itself? How do you know it's not a system through which energy flows?

Science shows nothing can be truly destroyed, it just takes another form.

Can I truly destroy a system so that it no longer functions? Of course. You can't eliminate matter or energy. You're assuming that conciousness is a kind of matter or energy, and that it's not COMPOSED OF matter or energy.

Why is your assumption so right that anyone who thinks otherwise is arrogant?

Is the assumption that conciousness, the essence of ourselves, is a pure state of matter/energy not kind of arrogant?

Why assume that conciousness is so important?

Yet you toss out a bunch of personal insults at anyone who thinks differently from you.

Naturally, if someone were to think that the essence of themselves wasn't the most pure and important thing in the universe, they'd have to be arrogant and beligerant, right?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4705314 - 09/24/05 01:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The analogy is that the mind is like 'Clear Light' it is transparent and it doesn't do anything, it has no characeristics of it's own.

It's only an analogy. A feeling. It doesn't necessarily have a basis in reality.

"I feel that my conciousness is a pure mystical thing that exists separate from the functioning of my brain, therefore it is."

That's not logic, that's assuming that the sense that something is true makes it true.

I don't sense that to be true. It seems silly to me.

So what if two people have opposing sensations?

Are you going to tell me that you're feeling it more strongly that I am? That I don't understand, you're not just feeling it, you're knowing it with the very core of your soul, etc...?

Why does that matter? The more right you think it is, the more right it is?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Phluck]
    #4705318 - 09/24/05 01:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yep. Reality is subjective. Thought creates reality.
We are spiritual beings having a human expeirence.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4705327 - 09/24/05 01:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Who cares what happens when you die? You focus on that too much, and you may forget to live.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4705464 - 09/24/05 01:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If someone made an exact clone of you, and both of you were walking the earth, would that clone be you? Evidently, a clone may be an exact replica, but not you.




Thats common sense. And nobody said common sense applies.

It is extremely probable we have not had an instance of two identical brain being present at once. That means it is a field of observations entirely unexplored by science. If such occurs you might just as well experience to be in both bodies ast once, even if they were physically apart. The left Potassium is just as Potassium as the atom to the right. Similarly the Ravus to the right may exactly be as Ravus as you. In fact the definition of consciousness given earlier (a neural pattern is all you are) dictates that this is the case.
You are trying to fit something into common sense which probably never has been in contact with it to interact.

If:  YOU = PATTERN
then: PATTERN x2 = YOU x2

if you follow logic.

Quote:

The dead are just a memory from yesterday; yesterday has already passed and gone.




A memory TO US. Passed away FROM US. What they are is not present today. That may well mean the timeline has split.

Quote:

The deceased isn't in yesterday, because yesterday has already collapsed into the present. You can only exist in the present, not in the past; even memories only exist in the present.





Says Ravus who, like the rest of the Human Race, does not know it all :smile:

Time might be a property of the mind which distorts the universe we perceive. Our soul or essence, if there is one, might be Time Itself.
That is exactly as probable as that the universe generates time.

Quote:

It didn't take me an infinity to go from nothingness to birth, so why would it take an infinity to go from death back to nothingness? Time would pass as always, even if our brains didn't interpret it subjectively due to the fact that they're shutting down.




You're imposing common sense on the universe again. Perhaps a localized fragment of time (which is you) arose from infinity and will return to infinity. "In your own time" may be exactly true.

Perhaps we all individually make time happen. Some seconds seem to last an hour. We say "seem" because it doesnt check out with consensus time. But perhaps, for you, it DID last an hour.

The "Closed minded materialism" of the thread might be synonymous with nihilism. After all you can use logic, which is just as good as other logic, to paint a beautiful picture. Why is science typically used to describe a half empty glass and spirituality used to typically describe a half full glass.
Science by no means equates to nihilism.

DNA and the genetic process is a beautiful, awe inspiring thing!
DNA and the genetic process are a binding chemical thing and thasts all there is.
Aren't both equally true? Why does science bring out the nihilism in people?

Bam! On topic!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Asante]
    #4705513 - 09/24/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
If: YOU = PATTERN
then: PATTERN x2 = YOU x2




After you were split, your configuration of neurons would only be the same up to that point in time which you were split. After the split, You-1 and You-2 would be having seperate experiences.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4705609 - 09/24/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If that were true for your core then you would be too transient to exxist and the debate is moot, and nothing more.

Diploid posed that YOU are a specific configuration, meaning you are someone else all the time.


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