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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Diploid]
    #4704652 - 09/24/05 10:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Consciousness is not a form of energy; it is an arrangement of neural connections. Or at least that's what the currently-available data suggests.



How so? And what are they defining as "consciousness"?


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Asante]
    #4704808 - 09/24/05 11:37 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How will it be NOT you when it exactly replicates the definition of you. Thats like saying a glass of water can never be a glass of water.




If someone made an exact clone of you, and both of you were walking the earth, would that clone be you? Evidently, a clone may be an exact replica, but not you.

Of course, here we'd run into some major philosophical debates that would only derail this thread. For example, if a teleportation device teleported you by slicing you into billions of pieces, copying you molecule by molecule to another location but destroying your current body, would it be you? You yourself would be dead and destroyed, but there'd be an exact copy of you born at the same moment. Depends on what "you" are; are you the exact molecules that make you up, or the pattern of molecules that make you up? In the former, you die every second; in the latter, you could make an infinity of "you" but still only exist in your subjective reality.

Quote:

If you were alive yesterday but dead today, you are today alive yesterday. We are not in yesterday anymore, but the deceased still is. At one point after all his clock stops while ours ticks on, and that is where we part. Our watches get merely out of sync.




So what's the point of the present and time? The dead are just a memory from yesterday; yesterday has already passed and gone. Are you saying there's an infinite number of timelines going on? If so, what evidence or logic are you bringing this from?

The deceased isn't in yesterday, because yesterday has already collapsed into the present. You can only exist in the present, not in the past; even memories only exist in the present.

Quote:

Objective time, no. But perhaps we create time with our brains.




Create, or interpret?

Your infinity argument still makes no sense to me, and I'm wondering where you're pulling it out of. It didn't take me an infinity to go from nothingness to birth, so why would it take an infinity to go from death back to nothingness? Time would pass as always, even if our brains didn't interpret it subjectively due to the fact that they're shutting down.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Edited by Ravus (09/24/05 12:55 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4705058 - 09/24/05 12:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I love this guy.  :heart:

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4705278 - 09/24/05 01:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

To me this is a ludicrous idea, that conscious beings randomly pop into being without ever being before and without previous cause, and then out of being again into nothingness. It completely violates the conservation of energy.

Eh? What evidence do you have that conciousness is a kind of energy in itself? How do you know it's not a system through which energy flows?

Science shows nothing can be truly destroyed, it just takes another form.

Can I truly destroy a system so that it no longer functions? Of course. You can't eliminate matter or energy. You're assuming that conciousness is a kind of matter or energy, and that it's not COMPOSED OF matter or energy.

Why is your assumption so right that anyone who thinks otherwise is arrogant?

Is the assumption that conciousness, the essence of ourselves, is a pure state of matter/energy not kind of arrogant?

Why assume that conciousness is so important?

Yet you toss out a bunch of personal insults at anyone who thinks differently from you.

Naturally, if someone were to think that the essence of themselves wasn't the most pure and important thing in the universe, they'd have to be arrogant and beligerant, right?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4705314 - 09/24/05 01:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The analogy is that the mind is like 'Clear Light' it is transparent and it doesn't do anything, it has no characeristics of it's own.

It's only an analogy. A feeling. It doesn't necessarily have a basis in reality.

"I feel that my conciousness is a pure mystical thing that exists separate from the functioning of my brain, therefore it is."

That's not logic, that's assuming that the sense that something is true makes it true.

I don't sense that to be true. It seems silly to me.

So what if two people have opposing sensations?

Are you going to tell me that you're feeling it more strongly that I am? That I don't understand, you're not just feeling it, you're knowing it with the very core of your soul, etc...?

Why does that matter? The more right you think it is, the more right it is?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Phluck]
    #4705318 - 09/24/05 01:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yep. Reality is subjective. Thought creates reality.
We are spiritual beings having a human expeirence.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4705327 - 09/24/05 01:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Who cares what happens when you die? You focus on that too much, and you may forget to live.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Ravus]
    #4705464 - 09/24/05 01:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If someone made an exact clone of you, and both of you were walking the earth, would that clone be you? Evidently, a clone may be an exact replica, but not you.




Thats common sense. And nobody said common sense applies.

It is extremely probable we have not had an instance of two identical brain being present at once. That means it is a field of observations entirely unexplored by science. If such occurs you might just as well experience to be in both bodies ast once, even if they were physically apart. The left Potassium is just as Potassium as the atom to the right. Similarly the Ravus to the right may exactly be as Ravus as you. In fact the definition of consciousness given earlier (a neural pattern is all you are) dictates that this is the case.
You are trying to fit something into common sense which probably never has been in contact with it to interact.

If:  YOU = PATTERN
then: PATTERN x2 = YOU x2

if you follow logic.

Quote:

The dead are just a memory from yesterday; yesterday has already passed and gone.




A memory TO US. Passed away FROM US. What they are is not present today. That may well mean the timeline has split.

Quote:

The deceased isn't in yesterday, because yesterday has already collapsed into the present. You can only exist in the present, not in the past; even memories only exist in the present.





Says Ravus who, like the rest of the Human Race, does not know it all :smile:

Time might be a property of the mind which distorts the universe we perceive. Our soul or essence, if there is one, might be Time Itself.
That is exactly as probable as that the universe generates time.

Quote:

It didn't take me an infinity to go from nothingness to birth, so why would it take an infinity to go from death back to nothingness? Time would pass as always, even if our brains didn't interpret it subjectively due to the fact that they're shutting down.




You're imposing common sense on the universe again. Perhaps a localized fragment of time (which is you) arose from infinity and will return to infinity. "In your own time" may be exactly true.

Perhaps we all individually make time happen. Some seconds seem to last an hour. We say "seem" because it doesnt check out with consensus time. But perhaps, for you, it DID last an hour.

The "Closed minded materialism" of the thread might be synonymous with nihilism. After all you can use logic, which is just as good as other logic, to paint a beautiful picture. Why is science typically used to describe a half empty glass and spirituality used to typically describe a half full glass.
Science by no means equates to nihilism.

DNA and the genetic process is a beautiful, awe inspiring thing!
DNA and the genetic process are a binding chemical thing and thasts all there is.
Aren't both equally true? Why does science bring out the nihilism in people?

Bam! On topic!


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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: Asante]
    #4705513 - 09/24/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
If: YOU = PATTERN
then: PATTERN x2 = YOU x2




After you were split, your configuration of neurons would only be the same up to that point in time which you were split. After the split, You-1 and You-2 would be having seperate experiences.

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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Re: Closed Minded Materialists/Atheists pissing me off [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4705609 - 09/24/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If that were true for your core then you would be too transient to exxist and the debate is moot, and nothing more.

Diploid posed that YOU are a specific configuration, meaning you are someone else all the time.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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