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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: demiu5]
    #6088494 -

being "free" from morality means being a robot, or a reptile.
i suppose it's possible to live without any moral consideration in your heart or mind- but why, what benefit does that give?

freedom from morality is just an excuse to have no obligation or duty to respect life.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Telepylus]
    #6088510 -

wait, and what's wrong with being a reptile...?

Quote:
freedom from morality is just an excuse to have no obligation or duty to respect life.


Now are we talking Life, or the life that our kind lives?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: demiu5]
    #6088669 -

you cannot respect human life, and disrespect other forms of life-
life is life.
it's like the person who wants to save the whales or rainforest, yet has no regard for infants- they don't respect life, they just romanticize over ideas of love and respect when actually it's a totally selfish ideation.

i think sometimes people feel that acting without morality, disregarding other people, or life itself- being greedy, living without guilt.
they feel it makes them more powerful.

they lack the skills to actually be honest and loving, so it's easier for them to just say "fuck it", and to act with cruelty and no sense of sin.

but the truth is, that is weakness and ignorance.
it's weak because they can't express tenderness, compassion, self-sacrifice- and they ignore the fact that others value these virtues.

in my opinion, a person with high moral standards is important to my own development in this world.
while people with no moral standards, they are dangerous to me and my family.
and when i say that one is better than the other.
the man with moral standards is better than one without.
this is not a judgement or opinion, it's just clarity, it's fact.

artists with heart and soul are beautiful
while the immoral are generally disgusting to be around

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Telepylus]
    #6088733 -

I think that perhaps "morality" is something that reflects one's own understanding of the nature of reality and of life. Say that, possibly, the more you understand the mechanisms by which reality works, a deep realization into the far-reaching consequences of every action, the more one's "morality" develops.

Morality is a sense of how one will act, and why, correct? The reasoning behind one's actions? For some, its morality is a contemplation, and, for some, its a rationalization. :lol:

:yawn: I've heard of a phenomenon known as sleep. By what mechanism does it occur? :confused: :frown:

:lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6089219 -

Morality IS a social rule. Think about the use of religion to control vast amounts of the population. True, many religions have guidelines that make it possible to live with other human beings. But really, societies needed religion to police a lot of folks for it. Otherwise you would have one or possibly more officers for every other person, and then those officers would need officers, etc. Therefore, the only way to have a 'society' at all, is to make someone believe it is inherently wrong to do 'some' defined action. Therefore, I would go so far is to say that it is not 'wrong' to kill small children mercilessly. It is not 'wrong' to rape a woman to death, and then decapitate and piss on her body. It is not 'wrong' to blow up countless people in an act of rebellion. These actions are not wrong, they are simply the ends of your means, which you enacted. The reason they are not frequently done is not because no one has the desire to do them, but merely because a large amount of those people will tell themselves that they can't, that its impossible, untill we have our society functioning correctly. Thus, the formation of the grand set of agreements that are our reality. We are all connected only by death, so to keep mutually alive, we must simply agree, with a very massive set of rules, not to kill each other. But like any massive set of rules, they have loopholes, power structures, and so forth. Therefore, ultimately, the people are more powerful than the rules, they WANT the rules and agreements. MAybe not all of them, but in order to get the ones they like, they have to accept everyone elses.

The only thing anyone has in common is that we are going to die. We just have an agreement 99999999 billion tera-pages long, in size 1 font, with 9999999 billion co-authors, holding us to not killing each other. But there are gaps. Like war, execution, criminal trials. Etc. Capital punisment is essentially the only punishment. Jail takes away time you could spend elsewhere, which is kind of bad, in a relative sense, but look at our punishment system. It is entirely based on taking away life, because life is our only bartering tool, our only common thread. We spend life to work to make money to trade. Think about that next time you buy something. Time is money. But time is life.

Life is money. Trade wisely.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6089254 -

Isn't morality nothing more than your opinion of what's right and what's wrong, and how we use this to conduct ourselves?

it doesn't have to be one grand rule for everything, it depends on the situation and context.  some think the word FUCK is a bad word.  that's not the case,  it depends on how its used on whether it's bad or not (now I just left myself wide open here :smile:).

sometimes is goes into the realm of sense.  don't you think a speed limit was created for a reason? 110 mph is a good way to get yourself killed, and it doesn't even have to deal with your driving ability (or morals for that matter).  when a tire blows out (and this happens often) you have a much better chance of controlling the car going 65 than going 110. In this casee it has nothing to do with righteousness or guilt, but a mix of some sense and/or being able to judge properly.

Quote:
I think the concept and the actions done in the name of morality are useless.


you think that, but you act out of morality all the time.  it's a mechanism of thought. It not only keeps you from doing something stupid, but also is a good indicator to show others how you want to be treated and how much you have learned in life. 

As markos pointed out, morality coincides well with compassion.  How much do you care? If you care a lot, then you'd show it to others.  you'd be respectful and think f others jsut as much you would yourself.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: kaiowas]
    #6089268 -

The great thing about this discussion is that there is no way to logically argue it, until you think of an argument outside of your morality.

Half of you are sitting here chanting "morality is good!".... that statement is based on your morals.... you think having morality is a good thing.

Otherwise you are just using emotionally conditioned buzzword responses.... kind of like a Bush speech. Respect, care, compassion.... the conditioning goes so deep as to label and give good/bad "charge" to words.... ah, this word, it is good, a very righteous word, quite apt for the amazingly great deeds of SELFLESSNESS (another good one) you bestow upon your fellow man.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6089380 -

its not just the word, but feeling behind that word that you get when it is mentioned. yes it is conditioned..so what?

you still act out on these conditions, they still show up in this realm.

since it is the basis of your actions...they are still there are they not?

do you not still act on morals whether or not you chose to believe they exist?

regardless if they are good or bad, everyone acts on their own version of them, and therefore they exist.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6089484 -

How, then, does one decide what to do? In the absence of positivity or negativity, do not all choices hold equal weight?

I don't disagree with the concept of no objective good or bad, but I find the concept of good/bad useful in a specific context, namely, being sentient.

What are the rules/framework of social interaction based on in the absence of some sort of determining factor of what is good or bad? Or is it merely a knowledgeable self-perpetuating system, that a social framework cannot exist without rules supporting a social framework? Or does preference become the only determining factor?


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6089800 -

I think that the ultimate function of a beneficial set of rules is to aid us in creating a preferable experience of life.

If our moral beliefs do not guide us in creating a positive interaction within our own minds (i.e. those which promote unreasonable guilt and neurosis), then they are not beneficial.

If our moral beliefs do not aid us in interacting with others in a mutually enjoyable and harmless manner (i.e. those which promote persecution of non-believers, killing abortion doctors, genocide, racial or gender discrimination), then those beliefs are worse than useless.

While I do not follow religion-based morals, I do choose my actions based upon a set of rules.  I am aware of the results which I desire to produce, both within myself and in the world, and will refrain from or moderate my behaviors if I anticipate creating an undesirable experience.

As I am not considering punishment by *Insert your Deity Here*, and do not support the concept of "sin," I do not define my rule parameters as GOOD and EVIL.  The closest approximation of these parameters within my ethical system would be PRODUCTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE.

I'm not interested in getting brownie points from my imaginary friend, nor gaining admittance to Heaven--I want to continually create the life I want to live.  Guilt has no place within my ethical system, and  I really don't miss it.  :grin:

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Xanthas]
    #6090771 -

i think all too often people are caught up in what to do, instead of just doing. I also see many people here unable to grasp the concept of the absence of morality, you are still trying to evaluate what it would be like with your parameter of morals.
Im not saying society doesn't need morality.... society basically is morality.

I hate to even bring it up in this thread, but Casteneda made a characteristic in Don Juan which I really hated the first time reading his books: what casteneda referred to as "controlled folly". We are all individuals, and when we are alone, the rules of society dont apply to us, yet the far reaching consequences (guilt) of morality can. Mainly, Don Juan was trying to explain that you need to personally abolish your social conditioning and "rules to live by", yet be aware of them, and be able to conjure up "suprise" when your grandmother gets you a shitty birthday present, smile and nod when your boss is telling an egotistical story....etc.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6091231 -

I have faith in Compassion as a moral absolute, therefore I have no interest in perceiving outside of that chosen morality. It is absurd to use language as you have, perhaps you do not grok that Compassion is not merely a subjective feeling - it constitutes an act of 'Will' and is a better word than 'love' for conveying the reality in my estimation. Jealousy is an emotion which may secondarily give rise to 'jealous rage,' which like "malice" is also an act of Will. I do not place that specie of Will at my Center. That Place is reserved for Compassion, which as I've suggested, constitutes a metaphysic Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist.

"You may call God love, you may call God goodness. But the best name for God is compassion." - Meister Eckhart

Incidentally, children act impulsively and dart out into traffic unpredictably. I no more wish to destroy a child's life by running one over than I wish to destroy my own life by being the driver who does that. I also have Compassion for me. That is healthy self-interest.

Thinking outside one's morality means 'being' outside one's morality. Unless I am willing to phenomenologically [bracket] a thinking mind devoid of compassion, say, in attempting to predict the behavior of a sociopath by thinking like a sociopath (in the service of the Good, for Compassion's sake), I can not even imagine why anyone would suggest thinking outside of Compassion-based morality...unless one is a sociopath himself.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: Veritas]
    #6091352 -

Veritas, I think your post is a great summation of morality. Perhaps there is more than one usage of the word, and I think morality is much more relevant and successfully applicable when it is a conscious system of motivations on how to act, and reflections on why to act in that manner, as opposed to simply conforming or adopting some definition of what is right and what is wrong. :wink:

I think that Markos has been addressing the transformation towards the former from the latter. Perhaps there is some tension in the discussion because there is some clashing of what exactly is being discussed? :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6092211 -

id rather be a sociopath than gain illusory merit points given by myself, in a system I created in my mind, to placate my delusion of reality... so that I can sleep better at night thinking about all the wonderful medals i awarded myself.....

I realize that this concept is harsh, and when i brought it up, i really doubted anyone would agree with me, or even attempt to see what I was talking about.... but it has merit, and I see no point of arguing it any further if you insist on saying "differentiating between good and bad is good".... to even argue this you have to step outside of morality.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6092836 -

"id rather be a sociopath..."

It's not worth reading any further. To begin a sentence thusly just indicates your total lack of understanding of the meaning of sociopath plus some adolescent rebellious attitude. I DO agree with your statement:
"differentiating between good and bad is good" but I don't think this is what you intended.

Incidentally, the last time I was confronted by the argument that good and bad are equivalent was with a 'friend' of my younger brother who was about to go to Rahway Prison in NJ for armed robbery (with a Crossman BB gun!). He phoned me to go out and buy some champagne for "some skinny girls with big tits." It didn't occur to me til after his phone call that it was HE who stole a bunch of cash from my bedroom. He had never phoned me before, and was trying to pay me back in some weird way. He did his time (I did not go out with him) - he even put an inmate's eye out with a fork while in prison. He died on the outside some years ago - fairly young. As he once said, he was robbing older women of their jewelry so he could afford tuition to go to chiropractic school. Everything about that guy was supported by the position that you proffer, and HE was a typical sociopath. Not something sociopaths themselves cop to. They're always placing blame on others, like Charles Manson blaming "society" for his actions, or Ted Bundy blaming "pornography" for serial rapes, murders and cannabalism. Lies, nothing but lies - the 'father of evil.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6093261 -

Half of you are sitting here chanting "morality is good!"

Well gee, the argument just verifies itself! :lol:

Value judgments can never be proven, unless you assume the existence of a higher power. It's impossible to verify that this behavior is 'better' than that behavior because which behavior you view as 'better' is based on subjective preferences. There is no objective criterion for determining what constitutes good and what constitutes bad. I think morality is only useful in the form of if-then statements. "If you wish to accomplish this then you should act like this."

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6093285 -

I guess after saying this I should admit: I frequently break into old ladies houses at night, steal their walkers, and feed their cats to fulfill my sadistic cravings.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6093801 -

A sociopath is merely someone who disregards the moral standards of society.

You can go ahead thinking it is some rebellious teenage angst, but I like to think I am fairly close to the concept presented in this thread (amoral), yet I own my own home, car, and have a profitable career.... I have no police record and my credit score is 760+.

For the third time in this thread..... To assess the topic of life without morality, you have to base your argument from an amoral assesment.
So far, your arguments are only furthering my point, that while you insist that your morals are good, and that value of "good" is based on your present morality is only an example of what I am talking about.... not a rebuttal.

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6093905 -

. Lies, nothing but lies - the 'father of evil.'

Praise the laud. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: becoming free of morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6094002 -

Quote:
"id rather be a sociopath..."
It's not worth reading any further.


What about starting out "I AM a sociopath". It's got a nice ring to it...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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