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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5406105 -

I've experienced THAT which is symbolized by the seed syllable OM. It is the finite dissolving into the Infinite. I have experienced the descent of the Infinite into the finite - that which is symbolized by the seed syllable HUM. The first is a 'peak' experience, the second is a 'plateau' experience upon which I live full time along with degrees of continual awareness of the Infinite. Sometimes I yearn for an "ascent towards Universality " [OM] as Lama Govinda worded it - Sahasrara - Kether - with the expectation of "descending towards Realization" [HUM] once again into my psychophysical abode. I'm not ready to ascend and not descend (i.e., 'die') yet.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Lama-Govinda.htm


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/16/06 03:37 PM)

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5406687 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I realize ego death is not really ego death. I just used the term to refer to what I consider being aware of the ego. It is a familiar term that others do understand.


You could also say that you're aware of the lack of ego...the fact that "something else" exists, the fact that you can condescend your current consciousness and look at it from another perspective.  That was insanely eerie the first time it happened to me  :tongue2:

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5407460 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
I've experienced THAT which is symbolized by the seed syllable OM. It is the finite dissolving into the Infinite. I have experienced the descent of the Infinite into the finite - that which is symbolized by the seed syllable HUM. The first is a 'peak' experience, the second is a 'plateau' experience upon which I live full time along with degrees of continual awareness of the Infinite. Sometimes I yearn for an "ascent towards Universality " [OM] as Lama Govinda worded it - Sahasrara - Kether - with the expectation of "descending towards Realization" [HUM] once again into my psychophysical abode. I'm not ready to asend and not descend (i.e., 'die') yet.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Lama-Govinda.htm


Want do you want Markos? Praise, recognition, a medal? What exactly was the point in your post?

Maybe this is precisely the kind of ego trickery Trungpa Rinpoche was talking about when he wrote the book "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism"?

"Ego is able to convert everything to its own use, even spirituality. For example, if you have learned of a particularly beneficial meditation technique of spiritual practice, then ego's attitude is, first to regard it as an object of fascination and, second to examine it. Finally, since ego is seeming solid and cannot really absorb anything, it can only mimic. Thus ego tries to examine and imitate the practice of meditation and the meditative way of life. When we have learned all the tricks and answers of the spiritual game, we automatically try to imitate spirituality, since real involvement would require the complete elimination of ego, and actually the last thing we want to do is to give up the ego completely. However, we cannot experience that which we are trying to imitate; we can only find some area within the bounds of ego that seems to be the same thing. Ego translates everything in terms of its own state of health, its own inherent qualities. It feels a sense of great accomplishment and excitement at have been able to create such a pattern. At last it has created a tangible accomplishment, a confirmation of its own individuality." - Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

If anyone really wants to know what real ego-loss is all about, i seriously recommend reading some of Trungpa Rinpoche's books. They are truly excellent. To read more of his book "Cutting Through Spiriutal Matrialism" click here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm

Edited by Sinbad (03/16/06 09:19 AM)

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5407503 -

yeah he was good but so materialistic.
and I mean that so you can use it in a good way.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5407610 -

Are you talking about Trungpa Rinpoche? In what way was he materialistic? Do you mean materialistic int he sense that he was a Nirmanakaya manifestation of the Buddha? In that he had physical/material form? Can you please explain. Im not much good with cryptic posts.  :wink:


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Edited by Sinbad (03/16/06 10:28 AM)

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5408844 -

please get better at cryptic posts.
shamballa has become almost as big a business as
chevrolet!
take no offense at this
one can find gems in sewage
and that is the mentality to cultivate
when learning the dharma.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5409027 -

I didn't know there was a medal for having had certain inner experiences  :smirk:. And I do not seek praise - not even a teacher-of-the-year parking space. No, I was responding to advice about being warned away from Kundalini-arousal type experiences. The OM experience of the Head Center, symbolized by the Wrathful Deities is a classic "Mysterium Tremendom" which, as I was saying, I had experienced in some measure. I had also experienced a positive secondary plateau experience symbolized by the Knowledge-Holding and Peaceful Deities - two phases. While I appreciate a cautionary concern, I sometimes yearn for another profound 'peak' experience, but (as I read in Dion Fortune's 'The Mystical Qabalah' today), one must be prepared NOT to return, and I said that I was not ready to die just yet. Does this clarify my intention any better?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5409056 -

BTW, feel free to project Buddhahood on Trungpa, but while at Naropa he hit on people's wive's, including the wife of a former friend of mine; he had people cut off Bhagvan Das' long hair while he slept off a drunk; and Trungpa himself was a serious alcoholic and cigarette addict. I've heard lots of rationalizations about peoples' expectations for an 'Enlightened' teacher being illusions, but despite the great books that his intellect spewed - the meanings did not seem to be embodied by him. He was quite a jerk.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5410445 -

Putting your harsh judgments aside Markos, i feel that maybe your mind is not very open, and as most peoples, very caught up in external appearances. Let me first direct your attention to Tibetan Buddhist History, particularly one famous Tantric master from the Karma Kagyu Lineage, called Marpa the Translator. With ones ordinary vision, one might mistake such an enlightened being for an ordinary flawed person because his harsh treatment of Milarepa (beating him, making him build various towers, getting drunk).

But if you examine carefully, you will see that every action that he performed, was purely out of love and kindness. Such Vadyadhara's like Marpa, are completely beyond limitations and as such there actions may seem at times contradictory to Buddhist philosophy, but in fact, every action is only for breaking the limitations and preconceptions of the students,helping them to overcome there many diverse obstacles toward liberation.

For example, during the sixties when Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche came to teach a large crowd of hippie types, instead of wearing a traditional lama's clothes, he wore a suit. He then proceeded to hop up onto the throne with a six pack of beer and a packet of cigarettes and introduce himself. This action was purely to cut through peoples preconceived ideas, expectations and assumptions about how a Tibetan Lama should be.

The problem here was not with the teacher, but with the vision of the beings receiving teaching. The path of Tantra is about transforming impure karmic vision, into pure vision. In this respect Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was totally accomplished. His books to me reflect perfectly the deep realization of an accomplished Vajra master!

The truth about Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, is that he was an incomparable meditation teacher, artist, poet, translator, vajra master, and social visionary who, more than any other person, is credited with establishing the genuine path of buddhadharma in the West.

I cannot blame you for having some doubts about his behaviour. But know that until you have pure vision, and have some deep understanding and realization within Vajrayana, you are in no position to judge a teacher such as Trungpa, who has helped so many beings to liberate themselves from samsaric bondage through his knowledge and total integration with the western mind.

And as for your claim that he was not the embodiment of what he taught, i totally disagree, in the strongest of ways. To me, his his actions always seemed to be a perfect and intimate expression of his books. I suggest you pick up a copy of "Crazy Wisdom" sometime.

In short Markos, i fell that it may be your limitations and judgement on this matter that prevent you from seeing through superficial appearences. Also you need to understand a little more about the role of the Guru in Vajrayana Buddhism.

Edited by Sinbad (03/17/06 05:10 AM)

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5410519 -

i feel the same way about Ram Dass. ill have to check out that book 'Crazy Wisdom', thanks for sharing Sinbad.

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5411412 -

"...you are in no position to judge a teacher such as Trungpa, who has helped so many beings to liberate themselves from samsaric bondage through his knowledge and total integration with the western mind."

AS IF...you know that the above is the case. Your hero worship is touching, if not so touchingly naive. Apparently, writings of Trungpa's have opened you to an attitude toward Buddhist spirituality previously not held. That is nice. But your own 'splitting' of good-bad is also apparent here. You have held alternating opinions of me in the past, and there is no reason that I would expect that to change, but between your own criticism of my take, and your inordinately high evaluation of Trungpa (as a human being, not as a prolific author), I'd say that you should take notice of the extremes that you are torn between before you evaluate anyone else. I was studying Vajrayana Buddhism in 1973, btw, visiting Geshe Wangyal in the NJ Vajrayana center, among other pursuits. Were you even incarnate in 1973?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5411492 -

in order for the contemplation of the master to be of value, one thinks that one needs to respect the master.
this is bull shit.

this is the bullshit that this master (trunpa) is trying to teach you.

some meditations such as putting one's teacher on their head and envisioning their teacher's teacher on that head etc. can go pretty strange if you are suffering erosion of respect and you think respect is important in this context.

putting one's teacher on one's head needs to be transcended. taken out of context of respect , social power games, and put into the realm of dharma, and insight.

it is private.
no conversions need to be done to convince yourself of what you need as far as "faith" goes in this.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5411751 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
"...you are in no position to judge a teacher such as Trungpa, who has helped so many beings to liberate themselves from samsaric bondage through his knowledge and total integration with the western mind."

AS IF...you know that the above is the case. Your hero worship is touching, if not so touchingly naive. Apparently, writings of Trungpa's have opened you to an attitude toward Buddhist spirituality previously not held. That is nice. But your own 'splitting' of good-bad is also apparent here. You have held alternating opinions of me in the past, and there is no reason that I would expect that to change, but between your own criticism of my take, and your inordinately high evaluation of Trungpa (as a human being, not as a prolific author), I'd say that you should take notice of the extremes that you are torn between before you evaluate anyone else. I was studying Vajrayana Buddhism in 1973, btw, visiting Geshe Wangyal in the NJ Vajrayana center, among other pursuits. Were you even incarnate in 1973?


This is not matter of hero worship at all! Many people have a firm commitment to Shambala teachings. I happen to be very knowledgeable on both sides of the argument as far as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche is concerned, and what i have noticed is that many of his students, as a result of his teaching, are now very serious and dedicated Vajrayana practitioners. Those who were not so inclined to regard Trungpa as their teacher, often sought teachings elsewhere from teachers who more easily fitted into there view of how a Tibetan Lama should be and act, and that fine as far as it goes.

But if you begin to insult a teacher because of your lack of  understanding of his actions, then the only fault lies with your own point of view. Because as practitioners of Vajrayana know, there is no need to raise fault, as all judegment is related to our own attitudes, considerations of point view, and what kind of vision we have. When you judge someone based on your own preconceived ideas, that is an action based upon nothing but ignorance. Examining the teacher means examining the teaching, because from a Vajrayana perspective, its impossible for someone to discover another's realization based upon external actions alone. Did you read up about "Marpa the Translator"?

I somehow knew that you were going to quote just that little section of my post as its the only section you can actually raise an argument with (a weak one at that). Personally i have no opinion about you at all anymore, as i no longer see the beneift in creating one. All i am doing is responding to your post as best i can.

P.S. Higher number of age, doesn't necessarily mean increase in knowledge. It is a myth that wisdom comes with age, mostly its only erectile disfunction that goes hand in hand. :lol:

P.P.S I enjoyed the way your post tried to exert superiority in age to suppress the views I presented to try and portray them as juvenile rubbish. It was quite disrespectftul but amusing at the same time!  :lol:

Edited by Sinbad (03/17/06 12:52 PM)

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5411806 -

Quote:
It is a myth that wisdom comes with age, mostly its only erectile disfunction that goes hand in hand.


While an older man may be less wise than a younger man, it is generally true that if you take the same man at 20 and look at him when he's 40, he will have gained more wisdom in that time.


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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Silversoul]
    #5411816 -

Yes that is true in some circumstances. But the very opposite has also been observed. Mostly with age comes pride and stubborness. As alot of older people stop asking questions and assume they know it all!


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Edited by Sinbad (03/17/06 09:17 AM)

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5412902 -

"As a lot of older people stop asking questions and assume they know it all!"

If they do that they where never wise to begin with

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5413263 -

Not always. You see many start off when they are young, slowly accumilating wisdom. Then due to this steady accumilation they have some kind of peak experiences associated with that wisdom. They then get attached to those experiences, and condition there minds with that, accumilating more and more intellectual knowledge to confirm those experiences.

In this way when they are conditioned with that, where once wisdom was increasing, now only pride and stubborness are increasing. Finally they feel bitter about not having those experiences repeated, and with the obstacle of "knowledge" they have aquired they reside to rest upon the "know it all" attitude.

In short, progress becomes blocked by attachment and ego. Where once there was openess and wisdom, now only pride and stubborn closed-mindedness remains.

"Beginners mind many possibilities, experts mind few!" - Shunryu Suzuki Roshi


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Edited by Sinbad (03/17/06 03:26 PM)

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5413549 -

Wisdom does NOT necessarily come of age, but I really need to hear some newbie to these things tell me how much I need to learn about something he just met and fell in love with. Not superiority...lad...common sense. You seem to have a problem with your elders, and the delivery of your opinion is obnoxious. I don't mind taking correction, as I still consider myself to be a student, and I frequently take correction from much younger humans than yourself (middle schoolers) when I am in error. As far as I was concerned, you were the rude one since you do not question further, but you are quick to criticize, while not taking criticism very well at all.

You exemplified exactly the point I was making about Trungpa - rationalizing his errant behaviors and projecting an exalted status on the man. I've read and own some of his books. Good author, simple and clear. My opinion is that Enlightenment translates into Compassion, and hitting on married women is not Compassionate to the husbands. No Vajra teaching in simple lust.

Puerile penis politics belongs to the late adolescent mentality that you still demonstrate, so please do not feign amusement at my comments. I never said "juvenile rubbish," I differed in that I withdraw all projections from 'holy men.' I am aware of Guru traditions. It is you who were attempting to be condescending, but I suppose Trungpa would tell you that it was just "Vajra Pride."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: Sinbad]
    #5413583 -

How open do you think you are Sinbad? I know I can look back 5 years into the past and see how much of a fool I was. What will happen in 5 years when I look back on the me of now? I cant say for sure, but I can make a intelligent guess from my past experiences...

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Re: No More Ego Death [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5414029 -

Im in no way a newbie, falling in love with Tibetan Buddhism. I was born into a family of Tibetan Buddhist practiioners, and have been associating with teachers and recieveing teaching since as far back as i can remember. I have no problem with elders at all, but maybe the way i presented my view could have come accross as a little obnoxious, for this i apologize.

However i find that many of your comments have been quite patronising and disrespectful, using age as an excuse to undermine my posts content. It seems to be a common occurance amoungst human beings for one to claim inncoence whilst pointing the finger elsewhere.

As far as the whole Trungpa Rinpoche issue is concerned, we must agree to disagree on this matter. I have said everything i wish to say on this subject, and see no reason to conintue debating.


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