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Culture
    #5337157 -

I'm listening to an excerpt from a Terrence Mc Kenna discussion that is in a song off of the Mysterium Tremendum cd, and he refers to how we are to create our culture, not consume it. 

I think it is an excellent, crucial idea, and a beneficial concept to think through in terms of one's experience right now and that which we concern ourselves with, the actions we take and the behaviors we engage in.

We can transform our society and our interpretations of reality when we actively pursue creating our culture, as opposed to connecting through some media in order to obtain our culture. We can create a path and a course for ourselves to fully embrace and follow, and our walking of that path will naturally produce different effects in those who share that path in the moments we interact with them.

We can induldge our consciousness and our awareness in activities that benefit ourselves on every level, and we can alter our personality and our attitude towards our reality in ways that will create a more enriching, beneficial, dynamic experience for ourselves and for others.

We can develop ourselves from within to the point where we stand straight up, a complete expression of a human being, and begin to interact with reality and produce preferred change within it. We can experience life and our center within being in a direct, pronounced, intimate way, within every moment, from a higher level of consciousness.

:stoned:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Culture [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5337395 -

Terrence was the man.

We can transform our society and our interpretations of reality when we actively pursue creating our culture, as opposed to connecting through some media in order to obtain our culture. We can create a path and a course for ourselves to fully embrace and follow, and our walking of that path will naturally produce different effects in those who share that path in the moments we interact with them.


Absolutely! The only problem is that almost a majority of the population, at least of North America, are lazy and tend towards apathy. They don't vote, would rather not work, are content to sit on their couches and waste their precious holy moments away to some mind-numbing show, eat whatever they can get the fastest, etc. These people don't care a whole lot about culture, just as long as they can get their Whopper, and get it now. I suppose in this respect, as in a lot of other philosophies, it's a matter of individual action, not action on a societal level.

We can induldge our consciousness and our awareness in activities that benefit ourselves on every level, and we can alter our personality and our attitude towards our reality in ways that will create a more enriching, beneficial, dynamic experience for ourselves and for others.

I think just about everyone tries to do the first part of that: benefit themself on every level. Self-interest is a part of human nature. Thing is most people don't really give it much thought, they really just act in a hedonistic fashion, tending towards whatever will give them the greatest pleasure at the moment.

We can develop ourselves from within to the point where we stand straight up, a complete expression of a human being, and begin to interact with reality and produce preferred change within it.

Yes indeed, and I sincerely hope that every one of us is doing that. But of course this raises questions like how do we know what preferred change within it is? I mean granted that I think you and I both agree on what is morally good and bad, but what about someone like Charles Manson, he was morally certain he had to kill people, and that it would be a good thing. How are we to know for sure that he wasn't right? I suppose it could be a matter of getting rid of all opinions and preferences and then seeing if that possibility even arises (which I highly doubt it would).

McKenna made such a wonderful contribution to the world. He was a great man.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Culture *DELETED* [Re: dblaney]
    #5337426 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Culture [Re: dorkus]
    #5337543 -

Morally good or bad? What do you mean?

To produce change, one has to take something that already exists, such as archaic drug laws, and modify it towards an end (such as treatment and no mandatory minimums or even legalization, vs. stricter penalties). Morality enters the scene because one should raise the question, "what end should we aim for?" Which end is 'good'? And what is 'good'?

And what are we aiming for? The least amount of suffering?

Could be. I'm sure many people consider that to be what morally 'good' means.

Should we surrender to the flow and accept that everything is allright, or is it our responsibility as individuals to strive to change the world at large?

Good question, could you elaborate on that though? If you completely surrender to the flow like I think you suggest, then what motivation would you have to do ANYTHING? Wouldn't that lead to complete apathy and then, since you wouldn't work or eat or anything, wouldn't you die?

I would say that social action seems to go hand in hand with Wisdom and Knowledge. For instance, almost all of the Saints and Bodhissatvas have lived their lives helping others (as social activists).

What is wrong with the couch?

Nothing inherently. I'm of the opinion, however, that so long as one of my brothers suffers, then I suffer. While there is nothing wrong with Reality, there is still the illusion of suffering all around. I simply cannot waste my life away on the couch while this happens. Maybe others can. I can't.

Morality is an intriguing question.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5337793 -

dblaney said:
TAbsolutely! The only problem is that almost a majority of the population, at least of North America, are lazy and tend towards apathy. They don't vote, would rather not work, are content to sit on their couches and waste their precious holy moments away to some mind-numbing show, eat whatever they can get the fastest, etc. These people don't care a whole lot about culture, just as long as they can get their Whopper, and get it now.


This is a rather vauge, brazen generalization. You assert that you have reasonable consensus that this generalization is actually apt?

From what source has this understanding developed from? That is to ask, what media have you been accessing?

Quote:
I suppose in this respect, as in a lot of other philosophies, it's a matter of individual action, not action on a societal level.


What action on a societal level is not an action at the individual level?

Actions on a societal level do not manifest on their own.

Quote:
I think just about everyone tries to do the first part of that: benefit themself on every level. Self-interest is a part of human nature.


It is of human nature to hold interest. As oneself is an aspect of reality and reality is a necessity for oneself....

Quote:
Thing is most people don't really give it much thought, they really just act in a hedonistic fashion, tending towards whatever will give them the greatest pleasure at the moment.


"Most" people? By what right do you have to assume this is a trait of "most" people? What standard do you utilize in order to judge people's actions, in order to determine if they are hedonistic or not?

Quote:
Yes indeed, and I sincerely hope that every one of us is doing that. But of course this raises questions like how do we know what preferred change within it is?


Simple. The change we prefer to seek, is the preferred change.

Quote:
I mean granted that I think you and I both agree on what is morally good and bad, but what about someone like Charles Manson, he was morally certain he had to kill people, and that it would be a good thing.


How can you speculate as to Charles Manson's inner motivations and intentions, first off? Regardless, one can utilize reason and logic to determine the best course for one's preferences to follow. Taking into consideration the possible consequences is an aspect of developing one's preferences. :wink:

Quote:
How are we to know for sure that he wasn't right? I suppose it could be a matter of getting rid of all opinions and preferences and then seeing if that possibility even arises (which I highly doubt it would).


"Right"? Right doesn't apply.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Culture [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5337802 -

:thumbup:  Of course none of this is possible without loving yourself first :heart:


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Culture [Re: Cherk]
    #5337821 -

Smoker For Peace said:
:thumbup:  Of course none of this is possible without loving yourself first :heart:


Actively creating and giving form to one's culture is an exciting, fufilling prospect. :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5338144 -

dblaney said:
If you completely surrender to the flow like I think you suggest, then what motivation would you have to do ANYTHING? Wouldn't that lead to complete apathy and then, since you wouldn't work or eat or anything, wouldn't you die?


The flow to which one is surrendering implies continued motivation. The concept of a flow does not equate into stagnation and to cease to move, shouldn't this be obvious?

Perhaps the "flow" that you are taking into consideration isn't a flow at all. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Culture [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5338206 -

fireworks_god said:
dblaney said:
TAbsolutely! The only problem is that almost a majority of the population, at least of North America, are lazy and tend towards apathy. They don't vote, would rather not work, are content to sit on their couches and waste their precious holy moments away to some mind-numbing show, eat whatever they can get the fastest, etc. These people don't care a whole lot about culture, just as long as they can get their Whopper, and get it now.


This is a rather vauge, brazen generalization. You assert that you have reasonable consensus that this generalization is actually apt?

From what source has this understanding developed from? That is to ask, what media have you been accessing?



This understanding has developed from some of the great thinkers of the past, such as Kant and Plato, and my own observations that their assertions indeed do hold true today.

Quote:
Quote:
I suppose in this respect, as in a lot of other philosophies, it's a matter of individual action, not action on a societal level.


What action on a societal level is not an action at the individual level?

Actions on a societal level do not manifest on their own.



Indeed. Perhaps I worded my statement poorly? I meant to say that individual to individual interaction would be essential in effecting a significant societal transformation. So indeed I am agreeing with you.


Quote:
Quote:
I think just about everyone tries to do the first part of that: benefit themself on every level. Self-interest is a part of human nature.


It is of human nature to hold interest. As oneself is an aspect of reality and reality is a necessity for oneself....



Are you suggesting that self-interest is not part of human nature, or are you just affirming that it is, yet it is supraordinated by the general concept of interest?


Quote:
Quote:
Thing is most people don't really give it much thought, they really just act in a hedonistic fashion, tending towards whatever will give them the greatest pleasure at the moment.


"Most" people? By what right do you have to assume this is a trait of "most" people? What standard do you utilize in order to judge people's actions, in order to determine if they are hedonistic or not?



None. You're right, I got a bit carried away. I would consider a hedonistic action one that is only self-serving, in the pursuit of self-gratification. Would you consider it something else?

Quote:
Quote:
Yes indeed, and I sincerely hope that every one of us is doing that. But of course this raises questions like how do we know what preferred change within it is?


Simple. The change we prefer to seek, is the preferred change.



Well yes that would be the definition of preferred change. But I was referring to it within the context of McKenna's statement. When I read "and begin to interact with reality and produce preferred change within it," I got the impression that he had some certain direction or change in mind, and in fact I think that was one of the major themes of his entire talk. However my question was more of a rhetorical one, seeking to find out what he considers a morally just action to be, and how they differ from modern society's view of what is morally just.

Quote:
Quote:
I mean granted that I think you and I both agree on what is morally good and bad, but what about someone like Charles Manson, he was morally certain he had to kill people, and that it would be a good thing.


How can you speculate as to Charles Manson's inner motivations and intentions, first off? Regardless, one can utilize reason and logic to determine the best course for one's preferences to follow. Taking into consideration the possible consequences is an aspect of developing one's preferences. :wink:



Actually I thought I had remembered reading that on an encyclopedia entry under his name, although now that I look for it, I can't find it, so it must have been a fluke of my memory. My mistake.

Quote:
Quote:
How are we to know for sure that he wasn't right? I suppose it could be a matter of getting rid of all opinions and preferences and then seeing if that possibility even arises (which I highly doubt it would).


"Right"? Right doesn't apply.



If being morally right doesn't apply at all to Manson, then I must be very confused, for I thought that society considers homicide morally wrong. He committed homicide. There are a few different speculations as to his motive, but whichever one may be the true motive, all of them involve murder as a means to an end. Since Manson presumably considered the end he sought to be a just one (we as society didn't and don't, however), it's no stretch to conclude that he considered the murders morally justified. So yes, I think it does apply.

I use Manson simply as an example to show the struggle of individual vs. society. Perhaps we as drug users would be a better example. Society considers drug use to be immoral, as demonstrated by drug laws and the War on Drugs. We, as individuals, consider this to be highly irrational and the prohibition itself immoral. Yet since we are a minority, the government finds it irrelevant to listen to us. This pretty much reinforces the notion that might makes right.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Culture [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5338233 -

fireworks_god said:
dblaney said:
If you completely surrender to the flow like I think you suggest, then what motivation would you have to do ANYTHING? Wouldn't that lead to complete apathy and then, since you wouldn't work or eat or anything, wouldn't you die?


The flow to which one is surrendering implies continued motivation. The concept of a flow does not equate into stagnation and to cease to move, shouldn't this be obvious?

Perhaps the "flow" that you are taking into consideration isn't a flow at all. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


Yes that is obvious, but when he said "and accept that everything is allright" I took that to mean one accepting everything just the way it is. Hypothetically, if one were to do that, then I think a logical question would be what incentive would there be to change or to act, such as to eat or to drink? If everything is alright just as it is, what need would there be to do anything?

I myself happen to believe that everything is alright just as it is, yet I have difficulty articulating a rational response to the above question. I eat simply because that's what I, as a physical form, do.

Perhaps I just answered my own question?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5338324 -

Everything is alright just as it is, but 'as it is' is not static, the present is constant change

Getting hungry is perfectly alright, wanting to eat something is perfectly alright, eating something is perfectly alright

the purpose of letting go of desires and attachments is to exist in an 'everything is alright mindset' without attachment to excess sensual gratification and indulgencies, so that 'just as things are' becomes one of little desire and attachment to the physical reality, as one progresses down the path they spend less and less time attached to this physical reality so one is attached to and desires things less and less (like the story of the dude who lived in the cave with little? or no? food or water in Dass's Be Here Now)


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

Edited by Smoker For Peace (02/25/06 03:32 PM)

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Re: Culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5338332 -

if one were to suddenly say "at this moment (9:15am on a tuesday) everything is as it is, i'm going to live in this moment (9:15am on a tuesday) for eternity" wouldn't that be the opposite of living in the here and now? change is a necessity to our existence


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

Edited by Smoker For Peace (02/25/06 03:42 PM)

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Re: Culture [Re: Cherk]
    #5338405 -

Everything is alright just as it is, but 'as it is' is not static, the present is constant change

Getting hungry is perfectly alright, wanting to eat something is perfectly alright, eating something is perfectly alright

Ok, I see that now, that's a good way of putting it.

If I have attachments and desires, what then, would be the purpose of trying to get rid of them, if everything is alright as it is?

To actually realize that everything is alright and to realize Nirvana? But what would be the point of seeking that if everything is alright to begin with?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5338443 -

dblaney said:
Everything is alright just as it is, but 'as it is' is not static, the present is constant change

Getting hungry is perfectly alright, wanting to eat something is perfectly alright, eating something is perfectly alright

Ok, I see that now, that's a good way of putting it.

If I have attachments and desires, what then, would be the purpose of trying to get rid of them, if everything is alright as it is?

To actually realize that everything is alright and to realize Nirvana? But what would be the point of seeking that if everything is alright to begin with?


To become closer to god. No matter how you live everything is alright, but wouldn't it be foolish to live in ways that propagate suffering?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Culture [Re: Cherk]
    #5338498 -

I like the way you think. :smile:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5340173 -

dblaney said:
Yes that is obvious, but when he said "and accept that everything is allright" I took that to mean one accepting everything just the way it is.


Naturally, one has to accept that this moment is inevitably the way it is before one can effectively bring the change one wishes to seek from that current state. One simply cannot disagree with reality - the resistance will tear you limb from limb.

Quote:
Hypothetically, if one were to do that, then I think a logical question would be what incentive would there be to change or to act, such as to eat or to drink? If everything is alright just as it is, what need would there be to do anything?


What incentive is there to act when you are refusing to accept various aspects of reality? Whether or not one accepts reality as it is presented lies seperate from the questioning of why one would act.

The simple fact is that change is constant, and we express ourselves through behavior in every moment, regardless of whether or not we accept the situation reality has presented or not. Acceptance does not equate into an inability to produce further change, and you have not demonstrated how it does.

Quote:
I myself happen to believe that everything is alright just as it is, yet I have difficulty articulating a rational response to the above question. I eat simply because that's what I, as a physical form, do.


If one truly realizes that "everything is all right the way it is", and one accepts reality and its nature as it is presented to us, then one inevitably also accepts that reality is in a state of constant change, and that we have the ability to exercise the means to change. Everything in reality is 'all right' the way it is, and it will be 'all right' in this next moment, after I move in this direction. The concept that everything in reality is all right now implies that reality will always be 'all right'. Reality is what it is.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Culture [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5735337 -

dblaney said:
Well yes that would be the definition of preferred change. But I was referring to it within the context of McKenna's statement. When I read "and begin to interact with reality and produce preferred change within it," I got the impression that he had some certain direction or change in mind, and in fact I think that was one of the major themes of his entire talk. However my question was more of a rhetorical one, seeking to find out what he considers a morally just action to be, and how they differ from modern society's view of what is morally just.


Not to be entirely late with this reply (:lol:), but it wasn't McKenna's statement that you were quoting here, it was mine. :tongue:

fireworks_god said:
I'm listening to an excerpt from a Terrence Mc Kenna discussion that is in a song off of the Mysterium Tremendum cd, and he refers to how we are to create our culture, not consume it.


That was all that pertained to Terrence McKenna in my original post, and it was simply his statement that "we are to create our culture, not consume it" that brought me to contemplate matters that led me to write that post.

It is great that my post passed as McKenna material, although I don't think it actually would, different styles... :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Culture [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5735483 -

There is no culture in the suburb where I live in. Its all generic, domesticated, hectic and boring. I guess you get a small sample of all cultures because it such a melting pot. Its mainly divided by economic income, small % of rich, upper middle class, middle are the majority, and the lower underbelly of society competing like wolves for the scraps. Everyone is very isolated by income and walls. Everyone has their own private island but some island may conjoin due to community involvements, but nothing really outflowing. To have any real culture the environment has to be more at peace which is rarely the case in America

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Re: Culture [Re: capliberty]
    #5736818 -

"we are to create our culture, not consume it"

I think what he is saying here is that happiness is achieved through constantly improving, not settling for the way things are and quietly "going with the flow," for lack of a better expression. I would say that he is speaking about the inactiveness of society in general to improve itself.

The problem is that the people that do want to change our culture all have different motives and this clash of ideas leads to stagnant society of declining morale.

I think that there are three main underlying motifs that cause a person to want to "create their culture", or change the world around them.
Those are the desire to help others, the desire to help oneself, and the desire to create. Different people have different ratios of these three driving forces withing themselves.

The only answer I can see to making your world a better place to live is to live among like-minded people.

As far as the Buddhist notion of letting go of desires and emotions, I believe that it is an effective tool for a peaceful state of mind, but to apply that logic to the world at large does not work. To reject earthly desires is to reject that which sustains life.


--------------------
A Good Substrate: Poo With Extras
Good Liquid Culture, Step by Step
Timer Modification
PM me if you are interested in buying 140ml syringes. $6 each + $7 shipping

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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