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Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6834776 - 04/25/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradleycny said:
Please define or describe the difference between a high and a low.

More desirable and less desirable.

On the cotrary. If all the universe were fire, it wouldn't be hot. Fire is not hot if you live on the surface of the sun. But if you spend time on the sun and then in the cold vacuum of space you are aware of the difference.

For us on earth, fire is always hot. Green is only green in contrast to other colors, but grass is usually green. The polar nature of the universe doesn't mean that both polarities must exist within one locale.




Did you just totally ignore my example that if all the universe were uniform (fire) than heat would lose it meaning? You yourself are acknowledging the polar nature of the universe than are turning around and saying that if we made the human experience of life totally uniform than we would still derive pleasure from one of the poles (joy).

If you felt the same all the time, you would experience no joy. Joy is not a chemical you can feed yourself. This is what I'm saying. Joy results from your conciousness experiencing something that brings joy relative to the lack of joy that you have experienced. In a similar sense if you dosed yourself with lsd 24 hours a day 7 days a week, eventually it would no longer be a psychedelic experience. Tripping would just become your reality.

As I've argued before the drug itself is not what deepens your conciousness, it is that the drug makes you experience reality in a totally different light that deepens your conciousness.

I think perhaps it is important to stop and note that I see a big difference between physical pleasure and joy. Clearly you can make someone experience physical pleasure for the rest of their lives just as easily as you could make someone experience physical pain for the rest of their lives. But joy and suffering are not simply the products of pleasure and pain. In fact they can exist quite separately. Many experience joy from pain and participate in S&M. Many others dedicate their lives to the pursuit of physical pleasure (hedonism) only to end up depressed and dysfunctional.

Those who chase the notion of the hedonistic imperative thinking that joy can be found in a pill don't understand the nature of joy itself.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6835838 - 04/26/07 07:36 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

If you felt the same all the time, you would experience no joy.

Good, but I never made any argument that we should feel the same all the time. Just as suffering is a category of different experiences, so is joy. I think there is a lot of potential for a substance to be specifically designed to instill gratitude for life, and many do tend to interact with people to bring about such an effect (such as ayahuasca).

Did you just totally ignore my example that if all the universe were uniform (fire) than heat would lose it meaning? You yourself are acknowledging the polar nature of the universe than are turning around and saying that if we made the human experience of life totally uniform than we would still derive pleasure from one of the poles (joy).

I didn't ignore it, I replied that both polarities need not always be present within one locale, and that we only need one experience of [pain to experience a lifetime of pleasure] or [suffering to experience a lifetime of joy].

Do you want humanity to do better? Do you have any better alternatives stored away?


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6842424 - 04/27/07 06:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradleycny said:
Do you want humanity to do better? Do you have any better alternatives stored away?




Come to the conclusion that life isn't perfect all the time, you have to take the bitter with the sweet, but that all in all it just makes life that much more beautiful and you should celebrate the finer things whenever you can :shrug:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisibletoastdth
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Posts: 138
Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6842459 - 04/27/07 06:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I predict nothing at all will happen.

Designer drugs will come along just like every other drug has. Nothing fundamental about the human condition has changed in the multi-millenia history of drug use, and I doubt it will change.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6850945 - 04/29/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Also, the problem with Hedonism is that it offers an illusory temporary fix for happiness. When you get old and ready to pass away, physically unable to live the hedonistic lifestyle... what is left, then? An emptiness that you will continue to search to fill.

In my eyes, moderation and mental clarity are of the utmost importance when it comes to happiness. Both of which are not very popular ideas to hedonism and drug usage.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: psyka]
    #6850966 - 04/29/07 08:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm old and ready to pass away. I can still enjoy the sun on my tired old face. Hedonism is a lifestyle that can last from birth to death. It's very different then the popular conception of it. It's all about loving life and experiencing it as much as possible. Not indulging in unhealthy (physically and emotionally) harmful habits.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Icelander]
    #6851001 - 04/29/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What does Hedonism mean to you and how do you practice it?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: psyka]
    #6851051 - 04/29/07 09:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I actually call it enlightened hedonism. It's appreciating being in a body and enjoying all the pleasures of it with an eye to honestly enjoying things rather than being addicted to them or hiding from something in so called exciting activity. I described it fairly well in the above post. Look at a cat, hear the purring? That's hedonism. Doing what comes naturally. That purring sound can heal and relax you. Just let that cat lay on your chest and breath in the vibration. Life is for enjoyment. I grew up Baptist and have been learning this the hard way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: psyka]
    #6851062 - 04/29/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Buddhism is a hedonistic philosophy, as it holds Happiness as the highest achievement of spirituality.

Any practice which seeks to relieve emotional suffering, and thus free us to enjoy being alive, is hedonistic.

Epicurean hedonism is the most balanced philosophy which actually calls itself hedonistic.

Quote:

Let no one be slow to seek wisdom when he is young nor weary in the search of it when he has grown old. For no age is too early or too late for the health of the soul. And to say that the season for studying philosophy has not yet come, or that it is past and gone, is like saying that the season for happiness is not yet or that it is now no more. Therefore, both old and young alike ought to seek wisdom, the former in order that, as age comes over him, he may be young in good things because of the grace of what has been, and the latter in order that, while he is young, he may at the same time be old, because he has no fear of the things which are to come. So we must exercise ourselves in the things which bring happiness, since, if that be present, we have everything, and, if that be absent, all our actions are directed towards attaining it.
~Epicurus



http://www.epicurus.net/en/principal.html


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Icelander]
    #6851103 - 04/29/07 09:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, laying the cat on your chest is very warm and compassionate towards the cat... it brings happiness to many beings who understand that, especially those who extend that wisdom to all living things. Theres nothing wrong with exciting activity in moderation. Over-indulgence (obsession) is always a bad thing.

There is a way between masochism and hedonism, that is the path of moderation. Perhaps, that is the one you actually practice.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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