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OfflineEpigallo
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Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative?
    #6829720 - 04/24/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

What potential do you see in the next 5-10 years for the effect of designer drugs on the basic factors you perceive as the human condition?

Keep in mind areas such as suffering, attitude, communication, pain, intelligence, etc. What about current problems with drugs such as addiction, tolerance, inconsistent effects, expense, side effects, unknown effects of synergies, etc.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831033 - 04/25/07 08:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I see no potential, as I have no understanding of or relationship with designer drugs. :grin:

What do you see?


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6831081 - 04/25/07 08:20 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

allot of promising research going on right now


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #6831130 - 04/25/07 08:36 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So what is the main thrust, that using these drugs will change these basic factors for us?


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6831151 - 04/25/07 08:46 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know, obviously there must be states of consciousness beyond anything we can imagine, even with our current psychedelics. Even if we want to live in the states produced by what is available now, there tend to be problems with the substances; we gain tolerance quickly with most psychedelics, they trigger fight or flight responses, produce body loads, etc.

I see no reason why as human knowledge progresses we can't have drugs designed to keep us in a state of love or ecstasy. Some people might think that is just too "rich", but then could our attitude also be modified biochemically to make us want to live with richer sensations and thoughts?

It seems to be a fact that if any stimulus is repeated on a system, the system seems to adjust to make the stimulus part of the system (tolerance develops). So it seems unlikely that one chemical can be continuously delivered to our brains to produce the desired effect. Precision of effect seems to be a problem, as everyone has a different physiology, and individuals constantly change as well. I'm leaning towards the notion that if human suffering can be greatly reduced biochemically, an artificial intelligence will be needed to map the human mind and body in extroardinary detail and design new substances as psycho-physiological changes occur to sustain a certain aspect of experience.

Ugh this is too complicated, makes my head hurt :confused:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831175 - 04/25/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradleycny said:
I see no reason why as human knowledge progresses we can't have drugs designed to keep us in a state of love or ecstasy.





Perhaps, but would the state of being have any meaning? Would it be with awareness, with understanding? I wouldn't mind being continuously happy, yet I don't want to be some moron walking around with a stupid grin on one's face. I realize that this might not necessarily be the case, but the point is that we understand and appreciate love for what it is because of the circumstance in which it arrives.

I mean, we already use all sorts of chemicals in an attempt to assist people with their mental state. From my general understanding, it doesn't seem to be the most effective approach - I know a lot of people here have said that on here. The thought that simply changing chemicals will change a state of mind is not an entirely substansial one.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6831202 - 04/25/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So what happens to free will? What about all the stuff that gives us the experience of being human? Drugs don't have to replace these things, they can enhance them. Think how psychedelics can let us see the different stages of evolution within us. Nootropics are a class of drugs which shows promising results for increasing symbolic intelligence. As long as drugs are designed to give us an experience of being more alive, with more "meaning", and greater control over our minds, I see no problem with the chemical route.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831285 - 04/25/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradleycny said:
So what happens to free will? What about all the stuff that gives us the experience of being human? Drugs don't have to replace these things, they can enhance them.




Thoughts can enhance them as well. Conscious thinking seems far more effective in facilitating a change within oneself than simple alteration of one's brain chemistry. Smoke marijuana and ten different people will have ten different emotional states and experiences. What could be a profoundly mystical experience for one on acid could be some sort of self-destructive hell for another.

Quote:


As long as drugs are designed to give us an experience of being more alive, with more "meaning", and greater control over our minds, I see no problem with the chemical route.




Is understanding and knowledge transferred through introduction of a new chemical into the brain? Sure, a certain chemical may help facilitate a certain emotional state of being, yet even the emotional state that it triggers is not defined by that chemical.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6831314 - 04/25/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Thoughts can enhance them as well. Conscious thinking seems far more effective in facilitating a change within oneself than simple alteration of one's brain chemistry. Smoke marijuana and ten different people will have ten different emotional states and experiences. What could be a profoundly mystical experience for one on acid could be some sort of self-destructive hell for another.

Could a chemical, or set of chemicals not exist which has the effect of making us more conscious of our thoughts? Marijuana sort of does this, but it also tends to cause short term memory loss, inability to concentrate, and possibly other undesirable factors. The fact that something is great for one while bad for another is a good impetus for actively designing, rather than passively taking what is there.

Sure, a certain chemical may help facilitate a certain emotional state of being, yet even the emotional state that it triggers is not defined by that chemical.

True for psychedelics, but less true for drugs which act mostly on the emotional centers of the brain. High dose alcohol will probably make you aggressive. Ecstasy will make you loving. I admit is is a problem achieving specific effects. In areas of the mind such as decision making, we of course don't want total definition but simply more awareness, and thus more freedom.

Is understanding and knowledge transferred through introduction of a new chemical into the brain?

Sometimes. :shrug:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831388 - 04/25/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Two reasons why I think science should not seek a drug that could realize the hedonistic imperative:

1) If you want to expand your conciousness, there is no drug out there that you need to take. Drugs can lead to experiences which in turn expand your conciousness, but the bottom line is that if your mind isn't ready to interpret these experiences they become nightmares instead of conciousness expanding. The realization that all the answers are within your grasp at all moments is the ultimate experience, and requires no drugs.

2) There is no way that a drug could be invented that makes you happy all of the time because the nature of happiness is that it exists in opposition to suffering. Heroin makes people very very happy until they come off of it whent they experience suffering, and after a certain point the happiness that came with those first highs gets dulled and it just becomes an addiction.
I think even if there were a magic drug that made you feel "up" without any "down," it would actually end up driving you crazy. I think if you felt the same all the time you would lose your mind. We're not designed to be that way and I think that a life without any dynamic ups and downs would be very unhealthy and unpleasant.


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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6831443 - 04/25/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Was'nt there a ren and stimpy about that?


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6831480 - 04/25/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

1) If you want to expand your conciousness, there is no drug out there that you need to take. Drugs can lead to experiences which in turn expand your conciousness, but the bottom line is that if your mind isn't ready to interpret these experiences they become nightmares instead of conciousness expanding. The realization that all the answers are within your grasp at all moments is the ultimate experience, and requires no drugs.

So you see no use for psychedelics?

2) There is no way that a drug could be invented that makes you happy all of the time because the nature of happiness is that it exists in opposition to suffering.

Hot only exists in opposition to cold, but fire is always hot...

Heroin makes people very very happy until they come off of it whent they experience suffering, and after a certain point the happiness that came with those first highs gets dulled and it just becomes an addiction.

This has been touched on, but you are making an extreme generalization. Of course, a system will adjust to a constant stimuli as to incorporate the stimuli into the system. But this can be beneficial. Consider certain dietary changes; when the body adjusts, it is something very far from addiction. And don't think the diet is simply "natural", we are living longer than we used to with a poorer lifestyle.

I think even if there were a magic drug that made you feel "up" without any "down," it would actually end up driving you crazy. I think if you felt the same all the time you would lose your mind. We're not designed to be that way and I think that a life without any dynamic ups and downs would be very unhealthy and unpleasant.

Why not surf the highs and lows of waves of bliss?


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Offlineeuphoricpoison
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831552 - 04/25/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

check your PMs


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831635 - 04/25/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So you see no use for psychedelics?

On the contrary I find them to be extremely valuable because they make you experience yourself on a level that you don't usually. But the leave the work up to your conciousness. If you fight the experience, it becomes scary. If you only take psychedilcs to see trippy visuals, that is all you will experience. But if you use your conciousness to fully enter the trip than it is a deepening experience. I often find it is the days after the trip that are my favorite, when I reflect on what I learn and feel at peace.

Hot only exists in opposition to cold, but fire is always hot...

On the cotrary. If all the universe were fire, it wouldn't be hot. Fire is not hot if you live on the surface of the sun. But if you spend time on the sun and then in the cold vacuum of space you are aware of the difference.


This has been touched on, but you are making an extreme generalization. Of course, a system will adjust to a constant stimuli as to incorporate the stimuli into the system. But this can be beneficial. Consider certain dietary changes; when the body adjusts, it is something very far from addiction. And don't think the diet is simply "natural", we are living longer than we used to with a poorer lifestyle.

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that heroin, a drug known for producing deep pleasure, is linked very closely to extreme suffering. This is no coincidence. Joy and suffering spring from the same well. You can't have one without the other. I challenge you to prove that you can have pleasure without pain.

Why not surf the highs and lows of waves of bliss?

Please define or describe the difference between a high and a low.


--------------------
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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6831678 - 04/25/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that heroin, a drug known for producing deep pleasure, is linked very closely to extreme suffering. This is no coincidence. Joy and suffering spring from the same well. You can't have one without the other. I challenge you to prove that you can have pleasure without pain.

You argument seems to be that in any individual, an equal amount of pain is experienced for any amount of pleasure. If you think this is true, you can go happily give yourself third degree burns with the assurance that they will have a pleasurable counterpart later on. If you don't think so, then it makes sense to wire your body and mind for pleasure.

To understand and be grateful for a lifetime of pleasure, one only needs one experience of pain for comparison.


Edited by bradleycny (04/25/07 11:07 AM)


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831766 - 04/25/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Please define or describe the difference between a high and a low.

More desirable and less desirable.

On the cotrary. If all the universe were fire, it wouldn't be hot. Fire is not hot if you live on the surface of the sun. But if you spend time on the sun and then in the cold vacuum of space you are aware of the difference.

For us on earth, fire is always hot. Green is only green in contrast to other colors, but grass is usually green. The polar nature of the universe doesn't mean that both polarities must exist within one locale.


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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831853 - 04/25/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradleycny said:
The polar nature of the universe doesn't mean that both polarities must exist within one locale.




Interesting. :craven:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6831864 - 04/25/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Regarding your main topic, why the hell not? We've always evolved most as a species when we've entered into a symbiotic relationship with other life, chemicals, etc. We could really further ourselves and become more aware of the nature of our mind in the process. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6831948 - 04/25/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

:smile:

Right, I was trying to get at exactly what, and how. It does seem a little futile for me to discuss however, considering how little I know about neuroscience.


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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6833373 - 04/25/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Drugs by themselves offer nothing but the potential to perpetuate acts that keep us in the pool of suffering. It is the person who uses drugs that holds the potential to gain incite from alternative perspectives.

Some people use psychedelics to see things and do not gain anything from it... I cannot understand that at all... Like, whats up with people jumping off of bridges under the influence of shrooms?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6834776 - 04/25/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradleycny said:
Please define or describe the difference between a high and a low.

More desirable and less desirable.

On the cotrary. If all the universe were fire, it wouldn't be hot. Fire is not hot if you live on the surface of the sun. But if you spend time on the sun and then in the cold vacuum of space you are aware of the difference.

For us on earth, fire is always hot. Green is only green in contrast to other colors, but grass is usually green. The polar nature of the universe doesn't mean that both polarities must exist within one locale.




Did you just totally ignore my example that if all the universe were uniform (fire) than heat would lose it meaning? You yourself are acknowledging the polar nature of the universe than are turning around and saying that if we made the human experience of life totally uniform than we would still derive pleasure from one of the poles (joy).

If you felt the same all the time, you would experience no joy. Joy is not a chemical you can feed yourself. This is what I'm saying. Joy results from your conciousness experiencing something that brings joy relative to the lack of joy that you have experienced. In a similar sense if you dosed yourself with lsd 24 hours a day 7 days a week, eventually it would no longer be a psychedelic experience. Tripping would just become your reality.

As I've argued before the drug itself is not what deepens your conciousness, it is that the drug makes you experience reality in a totally different light that deepens your conciousness.

I think perhaps it is important to stop and note that I see a big difference between physical pleasure and joy. Clearly you can make someone experience physical pleasure for the rest of their lives just as easily as you could make someone experience physical pain for the rest of their lives. But joy and suffering are not simply the products of pleasure and pain. In fact they can exist quite separately. Many experience joy from pain and participate in S&M. Many others dedicate their lives to the pursuit of physical pleasure (hedonism) only to end up depressed and dysfunctional.

Those who chase the notion of the hedonistic imperative thinking that joy can be found in a pill don't understand the nature of joy itself.


--------------------
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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6835838 - 04/26/07 07:36 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

If you felt the same all the time, you would experience no joy.

Good, but I never made any argument that we should feel the same all the time. Just as suffering is a category of different experiences, so is joy. I think there is a lot of potential for a substance to be specifically designed to instill gratitude for life, and many do tend to interact with people to bring about such an effect (such as ayahuasca).

Did you just totally ignore my example that if all the universe were uniform (fire) than heat would lose it meaning? You yourself are acknowledging the polar nature of the universe than are turning around and saying that if we made the human experience of life totally uniform than we would still derive pleasure from one of the poles (joy).

I didn't ignore it, I replied that both polarities need not always be present within one locale, and that we only need one experience of [pain to experience a lifetime of pleasure] or [suffering to experience a lifetime of joy].

Do you want humanity to do better? Do you have any better alternatives stored away?


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6842424 - 04/27/07 06:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradleycny said:
Do you want humanity to do better? Do you have any better alternatives stored away?




Come to the conclusion that life isn't perfect all the time, you have to take the bitter with the sweet, but that all in all it just makes life that much more beautiful and you should celebrate the finer things whenever you can :shrug:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6842459 - 04/27/07 06:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I predict nothing at all will happen.

Designer drugs will come along just like every other drug has. Nothing fundamental about the human condition has changed in the multi-millenia history of drug use, and I doubt it will change.


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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Epigallo]
    #6850945 - 04/29/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Also, the problem with Hedonism is that it offers an illusory temporary fix for happiness. When you get old and ready to pass away, physically unable to live the hedonistic lifestyle... what is left, then? An emptiness that you will continue to search to fill.

In my eyes, moderation and mental clarity are of the utmost importance when it comes to happiness. Both of which are not very popular ideas to hedonism and drug usage.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: psyka]
    #6850966 - 04/29/07 08:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm old and ready to pass away. I can still enjoy the sun on my tired old face. Hedonism is a lifestyle that can last from birth to death. It's very different then the popular conception of it. It's all about loving life and experiencing it as much as possible. Not indulging in unhealthy (physically and emotionally) harmful habits.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Icelander]
    #6851001 - 04/29/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What does Hedonism mean to you and how do you practice it?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: psyka]
    #6851051 - 04/29/07 09:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I actually call it enlightened hedonism. It's appreciating being in a body and enjoying all the pleasures of it with an eye to honestly enjoying things rather than being addicted to them or hiding from something in so called exciting activity. I described it fairly well in the above post. Look at a cat, hear the purring? That's hedonism. Doing what comes naturally. That purring sound can heal and relax you. Just let that cat lay on your chest and breath in the vibration. Life is for enjoyment. I grew up Baptist and have been learning this the hard way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: psyka]
    #6851062 - 04/29/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Buddhism is a hedonistic philosophy, as it holds Happiness as the highest achievement of spirituality.

Any practice which seeks to relieve emotional suffering, and thus free us to enjoy being alive, is hedonistic.

Epicurean hedonism is the most balanced philosophy which actually calls itself hedonistic.

Quote:

Let no one be slow to seek wisdom when he is young nor weary in the search of it when he has grown old. For no age is too early or too late for the health of the soul. And to say that the season for studying philosophy has not yet come, or that it is past and gone, is like saying that the season for happiness is not yet or that it is now no more. Therefore, both old and young alike ought to seek wisdom, the former in order that, as age comes over him, he may be young in good things because of the grace of what has been, and the latter in order that, while he is young, he may at the same time be old, because he has no fear of the things which are to come. So we must exercise ourselves in the things which bring happiness, since, if that be present, we have everything, and, if that be absent, all our actions are directed towards attaining it.
~Epicurus



http://www.epicurus.net/en/principal.html


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Hedonistic/Ecstatic Imperative? [Re: Icelander]
    #6851103 - 04/29/07 09:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, laying the cat on your chest is very warm and compassionate towards the cat... it brings happiness to many beings who understand that, especially those who extend that wisdom to all living things. Theres nothing wrong with exciting activity in moderation. Over-indulgence (obsession) is always a bad thing.

There is a way between masochism and hedonism, that is the path of moderation. Perhaps, that is the one you actually practice.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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