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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
math is a language.
    #5336095 - 02/24/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

math is a language, like english. it is a descriptive tool of the mind.
in the same way english has failed to describe the nature of reality. math has as well.
math, more so than english, is a system of measurement. it uses arbitrary intervals to describe relationships between observed phenomenon. enlish is simmilar but far more open-ended.
for a random example, if im standing on a street corner someplace and a car whizzes past i could say "wow that car went whizzing by". in this case im comparing my observed stillness with the percieved higher velocity of the car.

now with the help of math(and a radar gun), i can say that, i am moving 0 miles per hour. the car is moving 60 miles per hour.
oooh, NOW i understand the reality of myself and this car!! or not.

math, like other languages is a human tool. it was created by us, it cannot describe us.
it is arbitrary. it is conceptual. it relates only to itself.
math can be used to somewhat acurately describe physical relationships, but only in arbitrary terms.
something goes this fast, or is this hot, or this dense. the answer is 42!
why or how the electrons spin we dont know. but we can count the rotations@!

thats all for now.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlineminesstudent
Who knows?
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Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 400
Last seen: 11 years, 29 days
Re: math is a language. [Re: BleaK]
    #5336306 - 02/24/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Math is some of the craziest shit I know of. Although I like physics better, its like math on crack. Getting way blazed and going to physics is awesome. Unraviling the mysteries of the universe.


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"The universe is the way it is because if it wasn't we wouldn't be here to talk about it"


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OfflineBleaK
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Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
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Re: math is a language. [Re: minesstudent]
    #5336325 - 02/24/06 10:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

aaaallrighty then....


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: math is a language. [Re: BleaK]
    #5336482 - 02/24/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

math, like other languages is a human tool. it was created by us, it cannot describe us.
it is arbitrary. it is conceptual. it relates only to itself.


There is your error in thinking. Any such language, by definition cannot refer to only to "itself". What does the word "language" refer to? It refers to a method of communication - and any form of communication can only have referents to reality.

If math nor "English" did not succeed at describing reality and the nature of a given situation, they wouldn't be tools of communication, read: forms of communicating aspects of nature. "60 mph" refers to a movement in a situation at hand. If no motion existed, no such concepts would've arisen.
In essence, you are attempting to say that language fails to describe a nature of any given situation, because it is a method by which to describe such aspects of nature.

You seem to neglect the fact that nearly everything around us, including the very computer technology you and I are communicating through, evinces the success of mathematics and various other languages in their role of understanding reality.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
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Re: math is a language. [Re: BleaK]
    #5336637 - 02/25/06 12:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Math isn't like English. Math has words (such as numbers) to describe abstractions and only abstractions. English on the other hand has words which (are supposed to) describe actual objects, emotions and numerous other concepts which are inexplicable using math. Math is a piss poor tool for everyday communication.

All words are arbitrary (at the root), they originate often as grunts or vocalizations with some high level primate pointing to an object in his environment. Sure such symbols are originally arbitrary, but when those using the symbols agree upon a general meaning, they cease to be arbitrary in the sense that the association of the symbols with objects or concepts are agreed upon. If this were not so, communications such as your symbols transmitted from your computer and posted on the server for all to see, would have no meaning and would not elicit cogent response from others.

A symbol that relates only to itself would (I think) be rather useless for communication. If I tell you that a 'smeglebort' is a term to describe all the characteristics that make up a thing called a smeglebort, I would not have communicated to you any information that would help you to understand what a smeglebort is. However, if I tell you that a smeglebort is a red woolly four legged creature of the rodent family, averaging 30 pounds for a male and 25 pounds for a female, approximately 10 to 13 inches at the shoulder, that only consumes grass which grows in Andean plains, you would have a much better idea of what I am talking about... I hope.


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Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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OfflineBleaK
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Registered: 06/23/02
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Re: math is a language. [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5336704 - 02/25/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i agree with both of u my intent was to describe the futility of trying to explain the more full nature of reality, the hows and whys.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: math is a language. [Re: BleaK]
    #5337215 - 02/25/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

What is your background in math, BleaK?

Because, IMO, math is a pretty damn good descriptor of reality. You're attempting to suggests that there is some emotion behind mathematical interaction and I have to ask why? Why do electrons spin? Well they just do... its just what happens in our Universe. Why does h2o form water... well that's just what happens when those different interactions take place. Its the same reason that the notes E, B, G# harmonize.

Interaction [interference].

Why must there be a reason why? Can't it just be?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleshroomydan
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Registered: 07/04/04
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Re: math is a language. [Re: BleaK]
    #5337296 - 02/25/06 08:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

While I agree that math is a conventional language, what it describes is actual reality, not some arbitrary human convention.

Look at pie 22/7. This is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle, it is the same for ALL circles. An alien civilization would use different symbols to describe this ratio, but the quantitative principle behind the symbol is a fixed constant.

When we say that hydrogen consists of one proton and one electron, we are describing the actual reality of every hydrogen atom. Someone else might have a different name for hydrogen and a different word for one, but the concept behind the words represents an immutable fact of reality.

Other examples come to mind.

The speed of light- constant from any and all perspectives.

Natural logarithm- an equation found to govern everything from the way a radio active nucleus decays, to the way a flower grows.

Pythagorean Theorem- True for all right triangles.
BTW, Pythagoras taught that number was the only true reality. He even built a religion around this belief.  :wink:

There are innumerable examples...

Once you apply Math, you can see it is anything but arbitrary.


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OfflineDarcho
PhysicallyDetermined

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 426
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: math is a language. [Re: shroomydan]
    #5340602 - 02/26/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Any systematized set of symbols, that communicates information, is a language. A symbol being made up of two things: 1) the physical realization, or mental simulation of such a realization, that is designated to stand for a certain thing or set of things (sometimes called the vehicle, and 2) the thing or set of things that are being stood for (sometimes called the content).

There are, in the sense of symbols, two kinds of things: abstract and concrete. Languages such as English (what some may call a natural language), seem to have both abstract and concrete symbolic content. Mathematical symbolic sets, or languages which are not natural languages, seem to predominantly have abstract symbolic content. This is also why mathematics is said to be universal: it is highly applicable to reality due to the generalized nature of abstraction.

But yeah, I think that mathematics can be considered a language, and a good one too. However, mathematics and natural languages are not mutually exclusive; that is, they are not absolute languages and one does not take precedence over the other, for they both have their uses, as is evident by their existence. If a language is useless, then it will fade.


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OfflineBleaK
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Registered: 06/23/02
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Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: math is a language. [Re: psyka]
    #5342315 - 02/26/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
What is your background in math, BleaK?

Because, IMO, math is a pretty damn good descriptor of reality. You're attempting to suggests that there is some emotion behind mathematical interaction and I have to ask why? Why do electrons spin? Well they just do... its just what happens in our Universe. Why does h2o form water... well that's just what happens when those different interactions take place. Its the same reason that the notes E, B, G# harmonize.

Interaction [interference].

Why must there be a reason why? Can't it just be?




i have little background in math.

MAYBE, it could just be, but that throws cause and effect out the window.
it also throws free will out the window.

on all levels of observation 1 thing appears to effect another. what effects are causing the basic energy of the universe, by what means do positive and negative attract?
these are questions math cannot answer, because math is a tool of incremental measurement. it can say how much or how fast something is, but not simply how.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (02/26/06 11:56 PM)


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Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
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Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: math is a language. [Re: BleaK]
    #5343311 - 02/26/06 10:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

cause and effect should not be confused with CORRELATION. For most things in reality we can't really say which causes what, we can only describe correlated behavior, and that is the essence of math.

Math attempts to describe only the relationships between things, and in doing so reveals new relationships which, upon examination, reveal new relationships.

I think that it is profoundly interesting that one of the fundemental concepts of calculus is that when you have a mathematical relationship on a determined interval, as the interval approaches zero the relationship remains the same, even though the "numbers" being described have become infintesimal! And so when you are done all you have is a pure relationship being described, and no literal values need to exist to support it!


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InvisibleCowgold
Bullshit

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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
Re: math is a language. [Re: dr0mni]
    #5343540 - 02/26/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Everything can be represented mathematically. It is a medium through which we interpret the world. A fundamental building block used in every language.


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OfflineBleaK
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Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: math is a language. [Re: Cowgold]
    #5343661 - 02/26/06 11:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i am unimpressed. :wink:


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleCowgold
Bullshit

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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
Re: math is a language. [Re: BleaK]
    #5343723 - 02/26/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Noone is trying to impress anyone and take another hit because your thread is unimpressive.



Dude. Like... Math is a language, Maaaan!

You can use it to understand things n shit.


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