|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
The Abstract Machine
#5319174 - 02/20/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
All human thought is based on the stimulation of our senses. The information we receive is manifested by our bodies as the physical conditions of fear and euphoria, and perceived by our minds as the polar abstractions of love and hate. It is from these two abstractions that all non-analytical thought is formed; language( history, culture, society), money( value, worth), and god( purpose, justice). From this perspective any action that assumes a reverse in the order of influence is not only false, but ultimately doomed to perversion.
"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." - J.L.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5319633 - 02/20/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I disagree. First off, I do not see love and hate as being polar opposites. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
To love something is to enjoy it and wish/seek to further its existence. 
To hate something is to disparage it and wish/seek to cease its existence. 
You love what is pleasant to you and hate what is unpleasant. The extent to which you do either of these is determined by your love/hate for the individual components of the subject being examined. Your values consist of these individual subjects of love and hate. Consider love/hate like emotional binary. Sure its only zeros and ones, but its these tiny bits we use to construct our world view.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5320355 - 02/20/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
My point is that these ideas are based on the physical world; the physical world is not based on these ideas. And yet, many seem to cling to the belief of mind over matter.
A really great example is how our daily lives are increasingly based around the concept of money when the concept of money should instead be based around our daily lives. Or how about the basing of national policy on the concepts of evil and righteous when their both based on the concept of god which is in turn based on the concepts of love and hate? At what point does reality come into consideration?
Contemplating existence may reveal the nature of god, but contemplating god will never reveal the nature of existence.
Anyone?
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5320399 - 02/20/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: All human thought is based on the stimulation of our senses. The information we receive is manifested by our bodies as the physical conditions of fear and euphoria, and perceived by our minds as the polar abstractions of love and hate. It is from these two abstractions that all non-analytical thought is formed; language( history, culture, society), money( value, worth), and god( purpose, justice). From this perspective any action that assumes a reverse in the order of influence is not only false, but ultimately doomed to perversion.
"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." - J.L.
What is it "to be based on"?
If all human thought is based on the stimulation of our senses how were you able to entertain a thought based on other thoughts?
|
blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Lakefingers]
#5320666 - 02/20/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
lakefingers, have you never had the lightbulb moment? when your looking at a toaster and all of sudden you see the two slots and BAM!!!! all of sudden your thinking of two, two, two, and WHAM!! all of sudden you realize everything is in two, right down to good vs. evil. That in fact the nature of the world has to be twos for there to be a balance. That if good sits on one side evil has to be on the other to keep the balance. That evil works against good drives good to new places. the world would be static and nothing could exist witout its opposite, something to antagonize it, evil if you will. Evil makes the world dynamic. Without it all things must be Good and if they are already completely good, then whats left?
All that came from looking at a toaster, thats how our senses drive our thoughts. Its not that it makes sense, its just how it is.
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
|
Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: blaze2]
#5322911 - 02/21/06 03:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Ah, well, if that's how it is, then I can't argue with you. That's just how it is and I'll always be wrong according to your standard.
"How things are" is the metaphysical thinking that I am here to challenge.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
|
> First off, I do not see love and hate as being polar opposites
So what is the polar opposite of love... wealth, perhaps?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
FungusMan
I81U812



Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 3,112
Loc: Everywhere
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Seuss]
#5322939 - 02/21/06 04:17 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Thats the biggest speedbump to philosophical disection. Why have "polar" ends? In my beliefs, all things are grouped in threes. Love, Hate, Greed...Its all emotions regardless. You could put numerous words as the "polar" opposite of "love". Wouldnt "Lust" be as feasable as "Hate"?
|
Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: FungusMan]
#5323062 - 02/21/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Which testicle is the good one and which is the evil one?
|
fresh313
journeyman


Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Lakefingers]
#5323102 - 02/21/06 06:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
the one that gives u cancer and kills u is that same one that got that 15 year old pregnant
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: FungusMan]
#5323204 - 02/21/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
> Why have "polar" ends?
Because we experience a reality based upon dualism.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Lakefingers]
#5323340 - 02/21/06 09:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
"If all human thought is based on the stimulation of our senses how were you able to entertain a thought based on other thoughts?"
All thoughts are the direct result of physical stimulation. Entertaining a thought based on a thought is like adding one and two and then contemplating three. One, two, and three are all abstractions, but if you have three marbles in front of you then you can label them 123 and directly relate these abstractions to the physical world. On the other hand, if there is only one marble then the idea of two and three are meaningless.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
dr0mni
My Own Messiah


Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5324115 - 02/21/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I agree that there is no true polar opposite of love. Hate is just a different kind of love, malformed love. Hate arises only preserve something that one loves or in the absence of love (yearning, frustration, lonliness). But absence does not imply a polar opposite. Just like the polar opposite of chair is not no-chair. The truth is that all things exist on a spectrum, not a duality. Abstract ideas rarely have a true polar opposite but instead only contextual opposites. (is the opposite of sitting standing or lying down? If the opposite of chair was defined by it's opposing function would it be bed or ground?)
And it's the same with what you are talking about. You are viewing thought and reality as two different things, like cause and effect. But it's not that simple. Thought and reality are mutually dynamic, and they feed off of each other. Thoughts can move mountains and mountains can move thoughts. I won't argue for pure Solipsism but I will argue for a kind of psuedo-solipsism in which consciousness plays an integral part in the foundation for existence. This idea is becoming more and more reasonable in light of modern physics.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5324520 - 02/21/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
"Hate arises only preserve something that one loves..."
For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
"...or in the absence of love"
Polarity implies the possibility for neutrality doesn't it?
"...is the opposite of sitting standing or lying down? If the opposite of chair was defined by it's opposing function would it be bed or ground?"
Throughout your life you are constantly subject to the force of gravity. Even as you sleep you oppose this force with every breath you take. Sitting, standing, or lying down are just different ways to redistribute this force on your body. The idea of chair and bed are just abstractions of this fact.
"Thought and reality are mutually dynamic, and they feed off of each other."
Yes, observation of reality is the cause of thought which can lead to action which then affects reality, but I assure you that reality has never taken consideration of your thoughts before continuing with itself.
"Thoughts can move mountains and mountains can move thoughts."
Consider that the moon alone through its existence has had more affect on our planet than human actions ever will. What do you think about that?
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
dr0mni
My Own Messiah


Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5325541 - 02/21/06 07:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Talking about mathematical opposites like opposing force vectors is one thing. Talking about abstract opposites is something completely different.
The context in which you cite Newtons third law makes me think that you don't really understand what it's saying. "Equal and Opposite" simply means that the forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. It does not mean that for a kind of force there is an opposite kind of force.
Polarity does imply the possibility neutrality, but it still rests on the assumption of duality. That's still not the same as a spectrum.
When I say that hate may exist as an absence of love I mean that when when there is no outlet for one to express love then that energy may come out in a malicious form (ie. "hate") but it is still the same type of energy.
Quote:
The idea of chair and bed are just abstractions of this fact.
yes, and that's why we're talking about abstract opposites. There is no true opposite to these ideas, they exist in a dynamic system of interpretation. A multidimensional spectrum, if you will... it's just different forms of the same thing!
Quote:
Yes, observation of reality is the cause of thought which can lead to action which then affects reality, but I assure you that reality has never taken consideration of your thoughts before continuing with itself.
have you ever experienced a reality in absence of thought? Of course not! A reality without observation cannot exist. And if it does then no one has seen it, ipso facto! People talk about an object reality that exists independent of consciousness yet they have no empirical evidence of such a reality. We must accept the fact that consciousness and reality are not two seperate things affecting each other, but instead are ONE system interacting with itself.
does matter cause gravity or does gravity cause matter? Probably neither. They are simply one system and both gravity and matter are just characteristics of that system.
DesCartes believed that mind and matter were not dependent of each other as evidenced by the fact that a corpse could exist without it's mind and a mind could exist without it's corpse (in the form of ghosts). Well now we've thrown the notion of ghosts out the window in this modern age yet we still assume that because we see a body without consciousness that the two are independent. But this assumption is ignoring the fact that the observation of an unconscious corpse still requires the existence of consciousness.
Neither Determinism nor Free-Will truly satisfies the equation. There must be something else on the spectrum between them that does.
Quote:
Consider that the moon alone through its existence has had more affect on our planet than human actions ever will. What do you think about that?
and a single atom has more energy holding it together than you could get from exploding an entire oil refinery... what's your point? And how exactly are you measuring these effects? If you mean on a purely physical aspect then no doubt humans cannot turn the tides... but give our technology another century or two and terra-forming will likely become a reality. In the future we may be crashing comets into planets to create oceans.
The only thing limiting the power of our imaginations is time!
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5327113 - 02/22/06 03:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
When I say that hate may exist as an absence of love I mean that when when there is no outlet for one to express love then that energy may come out in a malicious form (ie. "hate") but it is still the same type of energy.
And this is the beauty of the paradox we exist within... a reality based upon duality, yet at some level everything is the same.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5327489 - 02/22/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Hehe, you only can hate if you love. The bigger the (former) love, the bigger the hate will be.
Better example is, as said, love seen as the abstract opposite of fear. But then again, it is interesting to see, that some things, you can love and fear at the same time, for example g*d or any kind of '?ber'-parents or something 
(Sorry if OT. I just followed the flow)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Seuss]
#5327550 - 02/22/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: So what is the polar opposite of love... wealth, perhaps?
I don't necessarily see love as having a "polar opposite", but if there were to be one, it would not be hate, but, rather, fear.
Fear is ultimately responsible for any hate that exists. One would not form hatred towards another if one did not identify another as a threat to some aspect of oneself. Hatred is an emotional reaction as an attempt to dispel one's fear.
Beyond that, I see no reason to suggest that love even has a "polar opposite". As already mentioned, a chair does not have a polar opposite. Emotions aren't binary - if anything, they form a spectrum. 
There are those that would suggest that love is a natural state for human beings, which emerges when one is consciously centered within one's being, fully embracing reality as it presents itself. Negative emotional states such as hatred, fear, etc, can be seen as resultant from a progression of mental obstructions that seperate oneself from one's center within being. One can become further and further removed from love, but yet there is no polar opposite to love.
Kudos to Jiggy for some discussion that has assisted the preperation of this post. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
Edited by fireworks_god (02/24/06 11:54 AM)
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5327555 - 02/22/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
"have you ever experienced a reality in absence of thought? Of course not!"
I meditate, and meditation is observation without conscious thought, so yes, of course I have.
"A reality without observation cannot exist. And if it does then no one has seen it, ipso facto!"
No, a reality without the ability to observe it cannot, by definition, ever be proved to exist, but to contemplate such a reality requires the abstract concept of non-existence which is useful only to metaphysics, theology, and science fiction, and has no applicable function in the continued existence of life. If it doesn't exist than why consider it?
"People talk about an object reality that exists independent of consciousness yet they have no empirical evidence of such a reality."
If you were to fall asleep under an overpass and it collapsed and killed you while you slept, then it would be safe to say that any observer would have pretty concrete evidence of such a reality. Of course this requires the observer to consider your consciousness as independent from his own.
"We must accept the fact that consciousness and reality are not two separate things affecting each other, but instead are ONE system interacting with itself."
I agree. My intent was never to claim otherwise, but to say that consciousness is a developed function of reality and is governed by the same observed laws, and to point out that even abstract thought is based on the observed structure of the universe and must be scrutinized and defined in a similar fashion. Consider that the concept of god came about through the inability to explain such things as the weather which then became attributed to supernatural causes; pain and pleasure become love and hate (if wish to argue this than please post your personal definition so we can compare and contrast); the ability to recognize inconsistencies and misinterpretation in a given situation becomes humor, and the ability to communicate physically, visually, and audibly branches out into language, mathematics, science, and even economics. I personally make no attempt to explain or even define the original how or why for anyone but myself. What I do attempt to do is follow the progress as far back as I can to understand the correct order of influence for the phenomena of life in order to more accurately chart the possible progress from this point onward. Rather than masturbation, I prefer to make slow, sweet mental love.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
|
|
Love is Life is Force is Chi. Surrender/Acceptance equals Expansion.
Swimming upstream contracts.
The polar opposite of Love could be Death, but then again it is to be noted that death is the womb of life (making them two sides of the same coin). Love is all, love is One.
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (02/22/06 10:40 AM)
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
"Explicit Duality Expressing An Implicit Unity"
All those ones and zeros make up the pretty pictures on your screen.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5327572 - 02/22/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: pain and pleasure become love and hate
Pain is simply pain and it exists by its own accord. It is when one fears pain that one may begin to hate that which is responsible for the infliction of pain. The hatred would inevitably spring forth as a reaction to prevent that which one fears from occuring.
It is entirely possible to experience pain and to not begin to hate or fear anything at all. I do not hate or fear my boxcutter, with which I have cut myself a couple of times, and I do not hate or fear anything as the result of a loved one dying. Fear and subsequent hatred are mental reactions to a specific experience that, in my personal opinion, cause far more negative experience and suffering than one could ever hope to prevent by them. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5327577 - 02/22/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Love as the implicit unity expressed through the explicit duality ranging from fear to pleasure (bliss).
eta: Love is not a feeling. Love's unconstricted manifestation is expressed through feeling of joy.
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (02/22/06 10:50 AM)
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
I concede that love and hate could be further abstractions from even simpler concepts, but if hate comes from fear, than love comes from what?
How about: (+)accept---(+/-)---fear(-)
or
(+)-----------(+/-)--------(-) embrace---accept---fear
Thoughts?
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
|
Fear and hate together...make the explosion 
seeker: embracement, acceptance do make out love, yes. As well as interst, curiosity, benefit and much more.
Define it like: 'Turn towards' contra 'avoidance'. Definitly based as chemicals and brainfunctions, too.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5328140 - 02/22/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: I concede that love and hate could be further abstractions from even simpler concepts, but if hate comes from fear, than love comes from what?
How about: (+)accept---(+/-)---fear(-)
or
(+)-----------(+/-)--------(-) embrace---accept---fear
Thoughts?
I have some and I'll keep it easy to relate too.
FW equated love with being in your fullness. I see that as being in your full power.
Which is a full bank account of vital life force energy?
O++++++++++++++++++++++++->infinity
OR
O-------------------------->infinity
Negative numbers have zero power.
When powerless, were helpless , hopeless and afraid, particularly when faced wit a threat. Negative values have no cushion for accepting more negative values and can okay. They get worse and more in the hole.
If you are in your infinite positive power, the negatives can keep coming at you and you can keep fulfilling them from your infinite positive value power supply.
When powerful, we feel able to help the self and others, hopeful, and confident, even when faced with any threat.
That's love, being infinitely full of the positive. It has the power to accept and cancel out all negative values and even turn them into positive ones.
If your personal inner wealth account is in the negatives( no positive love), you are as weak as weak gets. To have power, you have to either, borrow and OWE, ask another to just give it to you, or steal it. Most people who are far gone into the spectrum of no positive love, opt to steal it, because their sense of confidence and hope is so shot, they are beyond believing one will even give it to them if they just ask for it or a loan.
The way to rebuild your personal power is through building up positive love resources from within.
This has nothing to do with equality balance.
What good is a bank account with $50 credit and a $50 debit? It's value is ZERO. Its useless.
What use is the equal balance of good and bad. Are you eating healthy and maintaining a vital body when you eat half fresh fruit(good) and half spoiled fruit (bad)?
Are you drinking healthy when you drink a glass full of half fresh pure water and half stagnant polluted water?
Are you breathing healthy reviatlizing air if you suck in half pure and fresh air and half pollutted air?
This idea of being in equal balance of half good/bad, right/wrong, positive/negative is not healthy or keeping one vital.
Are you in a healthy relationship when you get hit and abused only half of the time?
The balance to strive for and be in is the center of positive infinity moving in and out from you in all directions. Thats being in the power of love.
Love is just a label that to many people have tied up with romantic notions.
Positive power is what we are talking about here. Some call that the power of love.
There is no power in a negative. Some call that the powerlessness of fear. It can only get power from off of others, by asking for it, borrowing it or stealing it.
The rotten food will rob from your vital energy and eat away at you, the foul water will rob from your vital energy and eat away at you, an abusive person will rob vital energy and eat away at you and same with foul air , foul thoughts and foul feelings.
Negative states and negative people, rob from and eat away at life.
A negative person, out of positive power and moving further out of the power of love and further into fear begins to act like a black hole. Same with a negative bank account that never has positive numbers added to it. It just falls deeper into the proverbial hole.
There is no positive value or power in the negative. Why would any one want to balance it into their life equation?
Being all positive does not put one out of balance. One that is full of the positive whole (love) has nowhere to fall.
Being pulled away from your positive center into the negatives throws your balance off. Fear throws us off balance and into instability.
If you catch it happening, add more positive to the negative account until you get back up into the positives again. Thats where your stability is found just like with money. Only here, apply your thoughts and feelings to negative and positive numbers and yourself as the generator of thoughts and feelings (positive or negative cash flow) being your personal wealth account that you draw from.
Thats where expressions like people being mentally, emotionally or spiritually bankrupt come from.
It's time to redefine what a healthy balance is.
Consciousness is going digital. We have no need for a negative to create a positive color print and it's time to ditch them. We never really did need them. The positive color print was always there. We just had to evolve and learn how to capture it with the use of the negative to realize it. 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
|
"...To have power, you have to either, borrow and OWE, ask another to just give it to you, or steal it..." [If one is weak, you say]
Hmmm..sorry, completely reedited my post due to structural mixation of content, still lacking words
|
Springs
Mine(d)


Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 330
Loc: sky hi
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5328337 - 02/22/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Im not to sure if its propper or essential at least to use energy outside of ones self, I think the individual has or is capable of all the energy and power need, the idea that power is or should be taken from someone is limiting, and perhaps takes away from ones own potential.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5328358 - 02/22/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: "...To have power, you have to either, borrow and OWE, ask another to just give it to you, or steal it..." [If one is weak, you say]
Hmmm..sorry, completely reedited my post due to structural mixation of content, still lacking words
You took that out of context. I said, that is the case when you are in the NEGATIVES and staying negative.
Of course when you are in the negatives, you can repower your own self with postives. I talked about that too.
In the sentence you grabbed, that was referring to those in the negative that REFUSE to be their own generating source of positive income (energy).
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
I have some and I'll keep it easy to relate too.

Not using that many abstractions you won't, but hey, thats exactly the issue I'm trying to explore, so, um, thanks, I guess.
I will write up a proper response to your post, but I'm going to need a little time, and maybe some drugs, to flesh out something that furthers the topic and doesn't come off as a simple 'Nuh uh'( though I do agree, I think, with some of what your saying), so, like, stay tuned.
And, by the way Blue Coyote:
Quote:
Define it like: 'Turn towards' contra 'avoidance'. Definitely based as chemicals and brainfunctions, too.
Any expansion on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Peace ..V,
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5328505 - 02/22/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
It's okay with me if you disagree and maintain the old mindset of duality balance being put into play. 
Be careful not to become like those people who start generating lots of good and go "OH this is to good to be true" and then self sabotage and balance yourself back to almost zero, zero or into the negatives, depending on how much fear arose in you when your lack of self worth (love) was showing via the comment/thought feeling.
I gave another view on positive, being in fullness balance, it's option and reasons for being in it. Take it or leave it. 
My first reply was regarding what FW said and your reply to that. I have no idea what you were meaning to say in your original post. My last reply wasn't addressing that.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
I feel insulted somehow. Oh well, fuck it.
What I'm attempting to do (with great difficulty) is break the thought process down to the simplest abstract concept, and how it relates to the development of human action. I think the (general) language, and thus the thought process, has become abstract in its relation to physical existence.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5329444 - 02/22/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
No need to feel insulted. Fuck that stuff is right! Laugh it off and love yourself and stay in your positive center. I was waiting for you to clear up the love hate stuff to understand where your first post was coming from better.
Why not break it down to the simplest abstract of Love or positive power. (same thing to me)
It's not that I am suggesting the negative just "disappears" . It becomes integrated and realized to be working for us, not against us when we understand its purpose, to show us where we are resisting life.
When we think things are working in opposition against us, it is we who are working against assimilating more of the self.
Like when something tries our patience. It isn't working against us, it is working for us in our best interest asking us to expand and accept more of the self to allow for what is happening and to make the appropriate positive change to be more giving.
Whatever we believe to be working against us or what seems to be is really just showing us where we have resistance put up to our own growth, the growth of others and the flows of life that keep things growing. When that force comes up against our own resistance to it, if we don't give way to it, it'll crush us. Best to give way and let it flow through and on and learn from it.
Positive power is a force we self generate, allow ourselves to receive and accept, through self love or positive self expression, thought and feeling. As it freely gives to us as income, we give of it as outflow through the love for all of life.
Fear is a force that self degenerates, as it denies and takes. Its the degenerating self that fears it's own positive/love power and the positive love power of life.
The only abstract worth working with is love/positive power.
Sure, it takes practice loving the self and generating positive power 24/7. We slip and fall. The key is to catch that and get back to love and generating positive power again. It's amazing how life starts to change the more you can stay in love (positive power) and keep giving way to flow by opening yourself up more.
Maybe this has something to do with what you were attempting to break through to. If not, carry on..........
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
|
> if there were to be one, it would not be hate, but, rather, fear.
Hmmm... better than anything I came up with. I will have to think on this one... we hate what we fear... ?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
The only abstract worth working with is love/positive power.
Well, thats a beautiful sentiment, but unfortunately the average daily existence is filled with abstracts like money and war and good and evil and honor and revenge and all the pretty little 'ism's that are sprinkled about. Now, all of these are built upon simpler concepts one of them being love, but to assume that love is all you need to understand the growth of human consciousness is to ignore the role fear played in Man's continued search for knowledge. He would have never learned balance with nature if he had not first tried to conquer it. You must remember that He outlived his environment (the ice age), his food supplies (whens the last time you ate mammoth?), and even his own relatives because he was a mean son of bitch. The chemical emotion as well as the mental concept of love has certainly played a vital role in man's relation to himself, but what about his relation to his environment? For example take disease. We hate it and constantly search to wipe it out whatever it may be. Whether or not this is "healthy" is debatable, but it certainly has an influence on the common language and thought. Some claim math is the language of the universe. Maybe, maybe not, but the idea comes from the fact that math is, for the most part, directly related to the physical world, and what you "say" with math, for the most part, can be directly applied to the physical world. Let consider, as a statement, the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance which every child (in the U.S.) is expected to mimic or recall by the age of ten.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation, under god, indivisible; with liberty and justice for all."
Now this too is a beautiful sentiment, but it doesn't reflect the fact that the U.S. is a secular, class based, plutocracy, and while these ideas are abstractions on par with allegiance, republic, god, liberty, and justice, the only concepts that a ten year old child is capable of grasping in full are stands, indivisible (assuming a proper course in mathematics), and all. When you repeat these over and over again you get the impression that the U.S. could never be a "secular, class based, plutocracy". This leads to a confusion over the concepts, and, I think, confusion in society.
Is any of this making sense?
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Seuss]
#5331202 - 02/23/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
we hate what we fear
Depending on what or how much we fear versus what or how much we love; yes.
Qualifier: I think.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5331294 - 02/23/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
What I said rolls with that. I said, it's not that negativity disappears, its that its assimilated with the positive.
Same would go with all the things life presents us to be afraid of. We can assimilate that fear and its derivatives with love and its derivatives.
When life appears to be working against us in fear, all we have to work with is love- understanding, appreciation, respect, consideration, acceptance, allowance, responsibility, care, compromise, goodwill, etc.
How does one work with fear alone and accomplish anything but being in that fear and becoming the cause of something to fear to others? Thats for manipulators, intimidators and control freaks who are running in the negatives as I discussed earlier. Thats being in a self degenerating state.
You had reiterated that you were looking for the one simple abstract to work with in life. I maintain that it is love/positive power.
I'm probably at an average of 80/20 love to fear ratio right now and as my love/positive power quotient keeps going up life keeps getting better! I don't want to be at a balance of 50% love 50% fear.
Like FW was saying and I followed, the full being is all love/positive power and has its center of balance is in that. Its when fear/negative suckage of power enters the picture that we get thrown off balance.
People keep saying "God/Source/Force whatever is both the light and dark".
Horse hockey. It's all love and light. The fear and darkness only enters the pictures when in forgetfulness or as it was said, in love lacking.
Some say, "Oh the dark forces do have power". Horse Hockey, they are degenerates-generate NO power of there own. ZILCHO ZIP. They are nothing more then the shadows of forgotten love.
The way they get power is by manipulating the positive power we generate from out of us and then use our own power against us. They do it with Fear and its derivatives like shaming, hate, negativity, intimidation, guilt, put downs etc.
What will happen when people stop falling for those suckers traps? They will loose all power if people stop giving it away out of fear. Without their own ability to generate power, they are just as dead/phantom like as they always really were.
You want to understand how it works, I just explained it. You want a simple abstract to work with in life, I say its love/positive power. Be the generator of it in your own life and when the black holes come around, rise above them, steer around them and move on or gobble up the ghosts like pac man with your love. Waca waca waca waca waca
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
Whoa dude, I'm not talking about personal abstracts. As far as that goes, mine is beauty. I don't think the world is beautiful because I love it; I love the world because it is beautiful. What I'm talking about is how the external language and common concepts affect the internal thought process, and simplifying the external to clarify the internal. I think we'd have allot less "fanatics" of any sort if we better understood how our built up abstractions relate to the physical world from which they're constructed. I'd much rather construct abstractions that allow me simply and accurately state the complex rather than constantly having to deconstruct those that have become, or started out as, convoluted and misleading.
Am I becoming clearer now?
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
|
|
People keep saying "God/Source/Force whatever is both the light and dark".
Horse hockey. It's all love and light. The fear and darkness only enters the pictures when in forgetfulness or as it was said, in love lacking.
Fear and darkness are the backside of love (contraction). It is all the same spinning coin imo.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5331591 - 02/23/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
If you want to simplify your life completely down to the bare bone, google "deductive reasoning" and "Occam's razor".
Perhaps you are looking for the pure, unadulterated essence of life?
Some one here has to understand where you're coming from.
Its sounds like you want to cut through all of the bull of words, labels and forms, with more words, labels and forms.
The thing I have found that cuts through the words, labels and forms, is "quietly listening" to the inaudible of life.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
Are you some sort of school counselor?
Seriously, if you wanted to have a personal conversation on adjusted balance and positive life force you could have just sent a PM; it probably would have been a much shorter and fulfilling exchange.
I'm trying to discuss how the abstractions of common language and the thought process with regards to society and the individual have become disconnected from the physical existence. If you want to talk about emotional orientation and its affect on the mental process than start another topic and go for it, but stop posting off topic.
The human mind is a computer that is programmed through the binary sensations of pain and pleasure. Abstractions were formed through these and then further abstracted into complexity. So far love does seem to be the most direct abstraction, and maybe it has a polar opposite maybe it doesn't, but it is derived from positive and negative physical sensation, so, for the love of god, stop nitpicking.
Thank you, Peace ..V,
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
fresh313
journeyman


Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
|
Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
That's love, being infinitely full of the positive. It has the power to accept and cancel out all negative values and even turn them into positive ones.
If your personal inner wealth account is in the negatives( no positive love), you are as weak as weak gets. To have power, you have to either, borrow and OWE, ask another to just give it to you, or steal it. Most people who are far gone into the spectrum of no positive love, opt to steal it, because their sense of confidence and hope is so shot, they are beyond believing one will even give it to them if they just ask for it or a loan.
The way to rebuild your personal power is through building up positive love resources from within.
theres an ad in the newspaper today for an Apprentice Alchemist, it doesnt pay anything monetarily, it only teaches u to turn coal into gold.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5332075 - 02/23/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Seeker,
If you havn't noticed, the whole thread from the first reply was a discussion about the polar opposites of hate and love before I jumped in one THAT discussion going on here.
Perhaps it took all of that for you to gain better clarity on what it was you wanted to discuss. Go back and look at your first post and how the thread developed.
Don't blame me for waiting until page 5 to get your own thread back to where you want it, after you went in the direction it did with others before I even joined in.
And, you're welcome! 

-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
Why not break it down to the simplest abstract of Love or positive power. (same thing to me)
This is the only contribution you've made to the discussion, and thats all you had to say. So, unless you have something else to add on topic, please stop posting.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
Edited by seeker (02/23/06 04:05 PM)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5334760 - 02/24/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: He would have never learned balance with nature if he had not first tried to conquer it.
I disagree. It isn't necessary to attempt to subject one's will over nature in order to understand the concept of balance with nature. Your reference to "He" belies the fact that different groups of humans developed differently in different areas, and that many cultures understood and respected the concept of keeping a balance with nature.
It logically follows that, if one sustains their very life from the water, plants, and animals present within one's environment, and if one is interested in continuing one's survival within one's environment, it is thus necessary to maintain the quality and survival of these aspects of one's environment one sustains themselves from. No vain struggle agansit this reasonable understanding requied for realization. 
Quote:
For example take disease. We hate it and constantly search to wipe it out whatever it may be. Whether or not this is "healthy" is debatable, but it certainly has an influence on the common language and thought.
We hate it? I personally realize the nature of disease and fully accept its reality, and prefer to not ruin my emotional experience and blur my direct perception of reality by inflicting myself with negative, emotional reactions agansit the concept of disease.
Taking necessary action agansit the flourishment of aspects of one's environment that are not beneficial to the survival of one's life and one's species does not necessarily imply that one emotionally hates these aspects.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fresh313
journeyman


Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
|
ring around the rosey pockets full of posies ashes , ashes we all fall down
|
fresh313
journeyman


Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5334816 - 02/24/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: I'm trying to discuss how the abstractions of common language and the thought process with regards to society and the individual have become disconnected from the physical existence. If you want to talk about emotional orientation and its affect on the mental process than start another topic and go for it, but stop posting off topic.
is not the disconnection or connection from or of physical existence the direct result of ones level of emotional detachments or attachments?
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: fresh313]
#5334859 - 02/24/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fresh313 said: ring around the rosey pockets full of posies ashes , ashes we all fall down
Poetic expressions involving the bubonic plauge should be put to death metal musikk.
Its not like you'd understand the lyrics anyways. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5344831 - 02/27/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: And, by the way Blue Coyote:
Quote:
Define it like: 'Turn towards' contra 'avoidance'. Definitely based as chemicals and brainfunctions, too.
Any expansion on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Peace ..V,
Sorry I am late. Look for the dopaminic reward-system and the mechanism of curiosity versa the aversion reactions of the vegetative nervous-system aka stress, leading our attention. For the sources I would have to dig it out again, too.
|
|