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 SneezingPenis
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 Math: discovered or invented? 
#4070151 - 04/18/05 07:53 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Since this falls into the metaphysics category a little i thought i would put it here.
So... is mathematics a discovery, or an invention?
I have yet to be able to confirm my own belief upon it, and I like to say i lean more towards the discovery side.
There are two schools of thought on this mainly: one is that the universal construct/platform is based on quantative and physical laws which are expressed and interpreted by us via mathematics.... then there are some people who say that our universe has adapted and become perceived so as to suit mathematics perfectly, that just by using our number system certain things have become the way they are.
The latter argument is based from the assumption that if an alien civilization that was comprised of amorphous beings existed, their number system and math would be completely different... where 1+1=1.
I think it was the Babylonians who first used a base 60 system which worked completely fine until they had to trade with another base 10 civilization.
Also, would the Fibbonacci sequence remain the same in a base 60 system? or in an amorphous system? since fibbonacci's and primes are the skeletal part of our number system, would their physics and laws create an entirely different set of fibbonacci sequences and primes, and therefor even change the construct of their world? here is a picture of what is called Ulams rose, which is an outward spiral of all the primes up to something ridiculous like 2.5 million, and every prime is colored in.
[image]http://www.abarim-publications.com/plaatjes/tn_Ulam's%20Rose.jpg[/image]
now, would some amorphous civilization have a completely different pattern? or would they come to the same picture by using their own mathematics?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4070157 - 04/18/05 07:54 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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not sure why the image didnt come up...
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chemistry
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4070175 - 04/18/05 07:59 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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hey man i always bring that up. i think theres no exact answer, it has to be both. i'm having a hard time thinking about why i feel that way but i think math is a key part of life and we came up with our modern math principals, but there is no exact way to describe math. other cultures had math systems that were different, but all in all they are describing something that seems absoloutly true and perfect in all ways. sorry if you can't understand what i'm saying.
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c h e m i s t r y
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PS_Cubes
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: chemistry]
#4070231 - 04/18/05 08:19 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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I think we created math to better understand our environment... physics has little inconsistencies that physicists can't explain. Why couldn't there be another way to understand the world around us? But trying to find what that way is, sounds to me, to be very incomprehensible. It's like thinking about what another dimension would be like... 
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 Psychoactive1984
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4070538 - 04/18/05 09:39 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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God, discovered or invented? Yes... Both at once. Discovered as a form of explanation, invented in terms of prowess and ability, and role in our lives.. additionally propogated to the extent that it serves its purpose and/or is beneficial to those that use it (control/know it).
It's merely conceptual in terms of evidence provided, it's a system of explanation, (interesting to note, mathamatic ability evolves independant of languauge). I think it's inherent, just as communication is in all forms of animals.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
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trendal
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4070680 - 04/18/05 10:08 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Math is invented to explain discoveries 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Psychoactive1984
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4070742 - 04/18/05 10:22 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Did the chicken come first or the egg?
 Either way, chicken tastes good.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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soulmotion
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4070911 - 04/18/05 10:58 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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The symbolic notation that we call 'numbers' and 'variables' was certainly invented (and over the course of history, revised). The concepts themselves, I'm inclined to believe, are eternal.
Think about how the invisible man has to wear clothes to be seen, or at least, to have an observable presence. I think this is the same with mathematical notation and the symbols we give to certain ratios.
e.g. "4" is just a symbol used to represent a ratio, that is, the ratio, "4/1" or "4:1".
No human being ever invented the concept of a four to one ratio, but we put the 'clothes' on it.
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Silversoul
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]  1
#4071023 - 04/18/05 11:25 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
So... is mathematics a discovery, or an invention?
Yes
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shanti
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Silversoul]
#4071109 - 04/18/05 11:54 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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wow great question that my poor little mind cannot answer. Both are subjective experiences. perhaps the discovery is an invention just as everything was (or is?) As we dicover we invent. Phi=everything?
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The_Walrus
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: shanti]
#4071587 - 04/19/05 04:30 AM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Mathematic is the pinnacle of certainty, 1+1=2 will always be true, always has been true, and is true for absolutely every sentient being. It is not a matter of opinion. It is the language of logic. How much mathematics reflects how the world works is debatable, but IMO it is the best shot we have of having a certain framework which explains the world around us with absolute certainty. The latest inferences from physics and science are subject to change, but pythagoras' theorem will always, I emphasise, always stay the same and true. So I would put myself firmly in the discovered category. Simply because of the intense rigour with which mathematics seeks proofs etc to get as close to absolute certainty as is humanly possible.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4071981 - 04/19/05 09:42 AM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
... is mathematics a discovery, or an invention?
Math has always been there.
The cheetah.........chasing a deer, across the plains.....has to "calculate" when to attack, from what angle, and how fast.
He is "using" math...with out "realizing" he is using math.
Man understands math.
He can use it as a tool to help him in his world.
We "discovered" how to use math.
Just like we "discovered" how to make an atomic bomb.
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slaphappy
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: niteowl]
#4072213 - 04/19/05 10:53 AM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said:
... is mathematics a discovery, or an invention?
Math has always been there.
The cheetah.........chasing a deer, across the plains.....has to "calculate" when to attack, from what angle, and how fast.
He is "using" math...with out "realizing" he is using math.
Man understands math.
He can use it as a tool to help him in his world.
We "discovered" how to use math.
Just like we "discovered" how to make an atomic bomb.
Everything has "always" been there. It doesn't make it "real".
For instance, "ME COOL - YOU AN ASSHOLE" has always been there, but are you infact an asshole?
Asshole (as math) exists OUTSIDE (y)our relative universe. 
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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.
 
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Gomp
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4072232 - 04/19/05 10:58 AM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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[Latin invenre, invent-, to find : in-, on, upon; see in-2 + venre, to come; see gw- in Indo-European Roots.]
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Disclaimer!?
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slaphappy
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: slaphappy]
#4072248 - 04/19/05 11:02 AM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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"I just invented a new language, and it can be used to explain everything! I promise! Just let a few generations battle in the labyrinth of math and we will come out the other end of the tunnel with new knowledge!"
pahahahaha
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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: slaphappy]
#4073917 - 04/19/05 06:51 PM (19 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
slaphappy said:
Everything has "always" been there. It doesn't make it "real".
Are you saying that math isnt real?????
Quote:
For instance, "ME COOL - YOU AN ASSHOLE" has always been there, but are you infact an asshole?
I can be an asshole or a cool guy.....depending on the situation.
What has this got to do with whether we "invented or discovered" math?
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: niteowl]
#4073933 - 04/19/05 06:53 PM (19 years, 1 day ago) |
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Its sorta like asking if we discovered or invented fire.
Fire was always there, just like math.
We just learned how to use fire as a tool, just like math.
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The_Walrus
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: slaphappy]
#4075853 - 04/20/05 04:29 AM (19 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
slaphappy said:
"I just invented a new language, and it can be used to explain everything! I promise! Just let a few generations battle in the labyrinth of math and we will come out the other end of the tunnel with new knowledge!"
But can you apply your new language to situations in the real world and predict with great precision how they would turn out?
For example, how can you predict with great precision where the planets are going to appear precisely at time x for an observer at location y. If your language could do that, then I am pretty certain you would have re-invented the wheel, your language would be mathematics, maybe the symbols would be different, but the structure of the equations would be identical to those used via mathematics.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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NewAgeDiciple
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All is vanity.
Happy Holidays.
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Smile, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle -philo of Alexandria
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Toad_Stool
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4079744 - 04/21/05 12:26 AM (19 years, 12 hours ago) |
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if you think of it a different way it shows invention.
Math provides us with answers to the unknown from what we do know.
I'm thinking more from a physics prospective. How could we possibly know that atoms exist by trying to find them. You can't. We take what we do know and math provides the answers into what is unknown. Therefore being invented by us to make discoveries. But it always exist in nature.?
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The_Walrus
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Toad_Stool]
#4080099 - 04/21/05 04:36 AM (19 years, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Toad_Stool_99 said:
if you think of it a different way it shows invention.
Math provides us with answers to the unknown from what we do know.
I'm thinking more from a physics prospective. How could we possibly know that atoms exist by trying to find them. You can't. We take what we do know and math provides the answers into what is unknown. Therefore being invented by us to make discoveries. But it always exist in nature.?
In physics, if something is allowed mathematically, but it hasn't been proven physically, it is a theory. Mathematics makes the predictions, but they have to be verified physically. For example, Einsteins relativity predicts that gravity can bend light, so to prove his theory, during a solar eclipse they saw two identical stars at either side of the eclipse, these two stars were actually the same star (the precise location of the star was known, and Einstein predicted exactly where the light from these stars would appear to be coming from). Einsteins theory of relativity was not invented, if we would have gone back in time a million years, we would have still been able to replicate the experiment, or if we were to go forward a million years (which BTW can happen if you travel at the speed of light, again this part of the theory has been proven physically). The same goes for mathematics, are you saying that 1+1=2 is so because someone invented it, that if someone else were to have invented it he/she might have said that 1+1=1? 1+1 has always equalled two, it transcends time and individual opinion, it is by all means of the word, an absolute truth, and absolute truths cannot be invented.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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a_h_w
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: The_Walrus]
#4080111 - 04/21/05 05:17 AM (19 years, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
The_Walrus said:
1+1 has always equalled two, it transcends time and individual opinion, it is by all means of the word, an absolute truth, and absolute truths cannot be invented.
oh no, an absolute truth!!!!
any mushroom will tell you 1+1 very rarely equals 2!
Edited by a_h_w (04/21/05 05:19 AM)
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fresh313
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: a_h_w]
#4080340 - 04/21/05 08:27 AM (19 years, 4 hours ago) |
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to invent is to create
to discover is to find
math is to discover
as invent is to math
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: fresh313]
#4082723 - 04/21/05 07:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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if I have one big chunk of clay, and one tiny peice of clay, and i combine them, i now have one slightly bigger chunk of clay. In this instance 1+1=1, but if we were to use non math terms, and call the bigger peice a kremloch, and the smaller peice a gorbon, we could say we now had a krembon when we combine them (or a gorloch maybe). We can only think in terms of our base 10 system, since that is what the majority of people have been taught, but look at hexadecimal, a base 16(?) which was "invented" purely for computer graphics and language. Does every base numeral system exist? If you attempted to convert all of our base 10 math concepts into hexadecimal, i am willing to bet you would find similar conclusions to most equations/laws/theories, but your math would be a completely different route to that conclusion. Chances are that some things wouldnt equate, and certain anomalies would have to be tweaked to make it work in hexadecimal, hell you could probably even find solutions to other problems which stumped base 10 logic.
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Hahzist
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4082821 - 04/21/05 08:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Even if there is a way to have a different math system. How can you argue we invented ours? If it was invented it would have flaws. There is absolutely no flaws in our math system. We discovered it through logic. 2 units plus another 2 units equals 4 units all together. You can make the clay analogy. And its hard to argue it. But its not what mathematics is there for. Its to analyze units for some sort of measure. If you are talking about adding clay together, you dont need mathematics to know its always going to equal 1.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Hahzist]
#4082839 - 04/21/05 08:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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well, our math system is invented, and it has flaws, we are contemplating whether the concepts and what it represents are an invention or not. With the advent of Schrodingers cat our math has become terribly flawed since now, mathematically, something can be alive and dead, on and off, here and there at the same time. It is a little hard to show this with our set of mathematics, and even when it is presented in such a way, it still makes no sense.
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Hahzist
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4082874 - 04/21/05 08:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I like ur points. The possibility of a more complete mathematics is pretty intriguing. But you still havent showed me where our system is flawed...just what it cant represent. We have been able to discover basic aspects of mathematics (working with individual units).
Its like learning things about the world as a young child. You dont have the complete concepts down, but what you do know isnt invented.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Hahzist]
#4082927 - 04/21/05 08:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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right now your computer is working on a binary system, things are either on or off, 1 or 0. Lets say this is the equivalent to our base 10 system, and quantum computing is the equivalent of some new mathematical base system which we have yet to invent. Your computer right now is based on a controlled series of coin flippings, a quantum computer would be like a controlled series of someone rolling a 20 sided pair of dice. Now lets say that the functions and capabilities of a computer are the platform of our universe. So far, what we know and can theorize is based solely on someone flipping a coin billions of times over and comparing these findings to the present functions of this computer, and if this computer becomes a quantum system, then we could have so much more functions and capabilities to explore, exponentially further than our current system.
So, with this in mind, lets say our mathematics as of right now can one day make time travel possible. Right now, it is just a theory, a concept... would time travel have always existed? or only exist from that exact moment of discovery on? would we have discovered it, or truly invented time travel?
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Hahzist
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4082961 - 04/21/05 08:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The possibility of using time travel would have existed before we discovered how to do it. So we would have discovered how to travel through time using mathematics
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fearfect
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4083867 - 04/22/05 02:30 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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math is definitely a discovery. How can you invent something that exists all around you?
even in a different base, math still holds the same fundamental properties. we just (semi) arbitrarily decided that 10 was the best (10 fingers/toes most likely).
there are some incredibly interesting properties of mathematics that I'm still grappling with and trying to understand. For example, 9^5 modulo 7 = ((((9 * 9 mod 7 ) * 9 mod 7) * 9 mod 7) * 9 mod 7)
each sucessive multiplication and modulus yields a number no larger then 6, but you don't have to calculate 59049 mod 7. when dealing with huge numbers, this is an incredibly useful property.
Math holds everything together
Edited by fearfect (04/22/05 02:38 AM)
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The_Walrus
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4083967 - 04/22/05 04:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
if I have one big chunk of clay, and one tiny peice of clay, and i combine them, i now have one slightly bigger chunk of clay. In this instance 1+1=1, but if we were to use non math terms, and call the bigger peice a kremloch, and the smaller peice a gorbon, we could say we now had a krembon when we combine them (or a gorloch maybe).
No, if one piece is slightly bigger, then you cannot regard them both as one. If we treat the small object as being '1', and the bigger piece of clay being '1.3' (relative to the smaller object, one could equally regard the bigger piece as '1', and the smaller object as '1/1.3), if you combine them you would get 1+1.3=2.3, in other words, the combined piece of clay would have an identity of '2.3', because it is composed of '1' and '1.3', it is basic logic really.
Quote:
psilocyberin said:
We can only think in terms of our base 10 system, since that is what the majority of people have been taught, but look at hexadecimal, a base 16(?) which was "invented" purely for computer graphics and language. Does every base numeral system exist? If you attempted to convert all of our base 10 math concepts into hexadecimal, i am willing to bet you would find similar conclusions to most equations/laws/theories, but your math would be a completely different route to that conclusion.
Chances are that some things wouldnt equate, and certain anomalies would have to be tweaked to make it work in hexadecimal, hell you could probably even find solutions to other problems which stumped base 10 logic.
That is not true, you said it yourself, if you were working with a base 16 system, you would get exactly the same solutions as you would get in a base 10 system. The base system exists only as convenience so that we don't have to think of a symbol for each letter, especially when dealing with decimals/fractions. Nature does not use a base system, the base system is only there to help us humans with our calculations. But again, I will emphasise that you will NOT get slightly different answers if you work with a different base system, you can very easily convert numbers in base 16 to numbers in base 10, its like currency exchange really, 2 dollars will give you a pound, a pound will give you two dollars, does that mean that using calculations using dollars will give you different inherent values as opposed to working in pounds? Absolutely not, you can still convert your answer in pounds to dollars, and the answer would be the same, it is simply a different way of expressingthe answer.
With the base system, it is exactly the same, '1' in base 10 would equal '10/16' in base 16. 10 lots of 1 would give you 10 in base 10, and 16 lots of 10/16 would also give you 10, to convert base10 into base 16 you simply multiply your answer by 1.6, to convert base16 into base10 you simply divide your answer by 1.6. Saying which base system is the correct one is like saying wether the cream is on top of the pie, or if the pie is under the cream, they are simply different ways of describing the same situation.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: The_Walrus]
#4085781 - 04/22/05 04:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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first of all, that isnt how you convert from decimal system to hexadecimal system. The number 234 converts into AE for hexadecimal, and 21 converts into 15.
I also said that MOST of the time you will get the same solutions using different base systems, but each base system is a point of perspective, an approach, and when you change your perspective and approach, yuo undoubtedly will be able to find new things which stick out.
Also, lets say you have one hydrogen atom and one oxygen atom, and you combine the two, you now have one hydrogen monoxide particle. You can also take a positron and an electron, one of each and combine them, which cancel each other out to make nothing, so in this instance 1+1=0, even when you look at a positron as being -1, all existence is still absolute in math terms, so 1+|-1|=0 is still a mathematical flaw based on our logic.
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4087088 - 04/22/05 11:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ita all relative!
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Diploid
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 Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4087838 - 04/23/05 07:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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MOST of the time you will get the same solutions using different base systems
Arithmetic using different bases ALWAYS results in the same answer. Only the symbols representing a given quantity differ, the scalar that represents the quantity is the same regardless of the base.
This many *** plus this many **** equals this many ******* no matter what base the computation takes place in. 
Edited by Diploid (04/23/05 08:01 AM)
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Diploid
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4087885 - 04/23/05 08:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Also, lets say you have one hydrogen atom and one oxygen atom, and you combine the two, you now have one hydrogen monoxide particle.
But the two original atoms are still there. If you take two ping-pong balls and glue them together, the original two balls don't vanish. 1+1 still equals 2.
You can also take a positron and an electron, one of each and combine them, which cancel each other out to make nothing
Actually, the two particles are converted to the mass-energy equivalent of the original two particles; they do not vanish "to make nothing" as you say, and 1+1 still equals 2.
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Seuss
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Diploid]
#4088025 - 04/23/05 09:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
right now your computer is working on a binary system, things are either on or off, 1 or 0. Lets say this is the equivalent to our base 10 system, and quantum computing is the equivalent of some new mathematical base system which we have yet to invent.
Lets not and pretend we didn't. These are not accurate similes. For example, if I said, "Lets say an egg is an apple and concrete is a pillow... now when I crack open my pillow and I don't get an egg I know my apple isn't made from concrete... understand?" you would think I was a bit loony...
Base is irrelevant to a computer. There have been computers built that operate in base-10 rather than base-2. A quantum computer doesn't operator in some "yet to be invented" base, but instead they too operate in the same base-2 or base-10 or base-whatever-you-want-to-use-to-represent-your-numbers. It doesn't matter what base I use, the size of the quantity I am measuring is still the same, only the symbols I use to represent the size of the quantity changes. Same concept holds true with maps... just because on one map it is an inch between my house and your house and on another map it is a foot between my house and your house doesn't mean that the distance between my house and your house changes depending upon which map we use.
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Your computer right now is based on a controlled series of coin flippings
No, my computer is deterministic. It is based upon a known set of switches being either on or off. There is no "coin flipping" going on and there are no switches in non-deterministic states.
Quote:
a quantum computer would be like a controlled series of someone rolling a 20 sided pair of dice.
No, a quantum computer would be like having a 20-sided pair of dice showing every single possible roll all at the same time. Only when I observe the outcome, is the correct solution to the problem shown.
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even in a different base, math still holds the same fundamental properties. we just (semi) arbitrarily decided that 10 was the best (10 fingers/toes most likely).
Ah, the voice of reason. Correct.
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there are some incredibly interesting properties of mathematics that I'm still grappling with and trying to understand. For example, 9^5 modulo 7 = ((((9 * 9 mod 7 ) * 9 mod 7) * 9 mod 7) * 9 mod 7)
each successive multiplication and modulus yields a number no larger then 6, but you don't have to calculate 59049 mod 7. when dealing with huge numbers, this is an incredibly useful property.
I was never very good with congruences... but I agree with you, they are absolutely fascinating.
Quote:
Math holds everything together
Math simply describes (models) that which we observe.
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Shroomerious
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Seuss]
#4088086 - 04/23/05 10:20 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think that maths were most probably invented by people. There are many different kinds of maths with different bases each. In some maths for example, division by zero yields a result whereas in our commonly known maths this function is invalid. Using the type of maths where you can divide by zero, people have explained movements of particles I think, where standard maths could not explain. What I mean is that if for example you have a basket of oranges and someone hits you in the head repeatedly with three of them you could measure the pain that you feel, or you could measure the quantity. It is the exact same thing with colors. The colors were always there but we, invented their names so we can distinguish them. On the other hand, phycisists are starting to really get deep into actions and reactions in our world. If someone in Florida farted, could that produce a chain of events resulting in me getting high on shroomz? lol This is overly simplified but you get the idea...
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Seuss
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Shroomerious]
#4088120 - 04/23/05 10:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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> I think that maths were most probably invented by people.
It boils down to what is the difference between invented or discovered? Math is like fire... did we invent fire, or discover fire? I can argue it both ways. In a way, fire was always there just waiting to be discovered, but we invented methods of using fire for different purposes. Again, math was always there waiting to be discovered, but we invented methods to apply math to help solve or model various problems.
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Shroomerious]
#4088154 - 04/23/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomerious said:
I think that maths were most probably invented by people. There are many different kinds of maths with different bases each.
Using "math" as a specific language to describe how things work.......results in many different math/languages.
But what these languages are describing has always been there. Putting it into a language is not the same as creating it. Just describing it.
Math has always been there. We just gave it its own language
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Diploid
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 Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Shroomerious]
#4088185 - 04/23/05 11:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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In some maths for example, division by zero yields a result
What math are you referring to?
There are places where 'division by zero' is defined, essoteric areas of math like Riemann surfaces, but in those cases the concept of division by zero is different than it is with real numbers.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 06:40 AM)
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Shroomerious
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Diploid]
#4088307 - 04/23/05 12:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am an engineer, not a mathematician so I don't really know details. The point of what I was trying to say was that changing some basic laws of common maths, you get a whole new set of maths which has proven to explain some things which common maths can't. By common I mean widely known to most people.
And yes, the movement may have been there, a simple example, F=M*a, but what we are not thinking is that there could as well be many other different ways of describing the movement of an object, like my example with the oranges.
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MushmanTheManic
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 Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Shroomerious]
#4088465 - 04/23/05 01:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Math is a model of the universe and should not be confused with the universe itself.
The map is not the territory.
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Shroomerious
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Well put.
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The_Walrus
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4094223 - 04/25/05 04:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Also, lets say you have one hydrogen atom and one oxygen atom, and you combine the two, you now have one hydrogen monoxide particle. You can also take a positron and an electron, one of each and combine them, which cancel each other out to make nothing, so in this instance 1+1=0, even when you look at a positron as being -1, all existence is still absolute in math terms, so 1+|-1|=0 is still a mathematical flaw based on our logic.
You clearly do not understand quantum mechanics, the electron and the positron annihilate and are converted into energy via e=mc squared. One of the main pillars of science and physics and mathematics is that you cannot get something out of nothing, and vice versa, and the electron positron thing does not violate any rules.
The electron and the positron are identical, except for their charge (electron is -1, positron is +1), when you annnihilate them, you get 0 charge, which is exactly the charge carried by a photon. In terms of mass, you simply add the two masses, and convert them into energy via e=mc squared. I emphasise, that nothing is lost, and nothing is gained, properties of the two particles are simply combined and converted. And you still haven't given me an example of how you can get different solutions when working via different base systems, please enlighten me.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: The_Walrus]
#4096239 - 04/25/05 05:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok, in terms of units, where there was 2, there is now 0, in other words there are no more units of the previous matter. If an apple cancelled out an orange, and you put those two together, you couldnt say 1+1=juice. Sure maybe 1 electron and 1 positron make x amount of energy, but that isnt the equation here, it is simply showing that the additive quality most objects have doesnt always apply directly.
Now, if you were to solve the same problem in tertiary, hexadecimal, and decimal, you would get the same answer, but written differently, perceived differently. Right now, we think in decimal system, everything broken down into places and fractions of 10, if someone were to think in Binary, or hexadecimal, i think their perception of values and math would be able to look at anomalies and problems from a different angle, which would bring about better solutions to equations.
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Diploid
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 Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4096527 - 04/25/05 06:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok, in terms of units, where there was 2, there is now 0, in other words there are no more units of the previous matter.
This isn't so.
Matter and Energy are interchangeable. Matter is concentrated energy. Let me emphasize that: Matter is concentrated energy. There is no difference between the two other than the concentration.
The conversion of a particle of matter and a particle of antimatter into energy doesn't change the equation. The energy that comes from the interaction of those two particles is equivalent to the original two particles, so 1 particle + 1 particle = 2 particle's worth of energy.
Since matter is exactly the same thing as concentrated energy, the resulting energy can be converted back into the original two particles. So, 2 = 1 + 1.
Taking an apple out of a box does not make the apple vanish, it only moves it somewhere else. Squeezing the juice of an apple doesn't make it vanish either, it just changes its form and separates the parts.
if someone were to think in Binary, or hexadecimal, i think their perception of values and math would be able to look at anomalies and problems from a different angle, which would bring about better solutions to equations.
Again, you're confusing things. Number bases are just systems of symbols. Consider arithmetic in Chinese. The symbols are different, but whatever the Chinese symbols for 1, +, =, and 2, it's the same computation. Using different bases results in e-x-a-c-t-l-y the same answer just like using Chinese does; 1 + 1 = 2 in every language and number base. There is no "different angle".
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 06:42 AM)
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Diploid]
#4097388 - 04/25/05 09:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Number bases are just systems of symbols. Consider arithmetic in Chinese. The symbols are different, but whatever the Chinese symbols for 1, +, =, and 2, it's the same computation. Using different bases results in e-x-a-c-t-l-y the same answer just like using Chinese does; 1 + 1 = 2 in every language and number base. There is no "different angle".
Regardless of what "mathematical language" you use...binary, decimal system or any other form of math....the end result is always the same.
Making it a truth/fact
All truth/fact is universal.....and independent of man......therefore he/man can only discover the truth......not invent it.
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The_Walrus
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4097970 - 04/26/05 04:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
ok, in terms of units, where there was 2, there is now 0, in other words there are no more units of the previous matter. If an apple cancelled out an orange, and you put those two together, you couldnt say 1+1=juice. Sure maybe 1 electron and 1 positron make x amount of energy, but that isnt the equation here, it is simply showing that the additive quality most objects have doesnt always apply directly.
Now, if you were to solve the same problem in tertiary, hexadecimal, and decimal, you would get the same answer, but written differently, perceived differently. Right now, we think in decimal system, everything broken down into places and fractions of 10, if someone were to think in Binary, or hexadecimal, i think their perception of values and math would be able to look at anomalies and problems from a different angle, which would bring about better solutions to equations.
I think that what you are getting at is that you cannot apply pure maths to situations in the real world. That is true, there is no such thing as a perfect circle in nature, there are no straight lines. Maths is a purely metaphysical discipline, it exists purely in the mind, that is why it is an absolute truth, because the mind can produce abstract pictures and perfections such as perfect circles and straight lines. Mathematics only offers approximations as to how nature works, because nature is infinetaly complex and detailed. But these approximatins are incredibly accurate, it is because of maths that we have all this technology around us, houses, computers, cars etc would not be able to exist if mathematics didn't exist. But the one thing that mathematics cannot model is nature, there is a branch of mathematics called chaos theory which is extremely deep, it mimics nature and complexity very well, just look at the fractals of the mandelbrot set to see that there is something very profound in it. Fractals are infinietaly complex, no matter how much you zoom in on one, you will still have the same level of complexity. The really trippy thing is that these fractals are derived from simple formulae.
The blowup of the mandelbrot set above is derived from a very simple iterative function, z next=z squared + starting number. You feed a random starting number (the first value of z) into the function, then feed it back in until it either converges to a value, or spirals off into infinity or zero. Plot the convergent values (not zero or infinity) onto the graph (which is a complex plane, normal numbers on the x axis, imaginary numbers (multiples of square root of -1) on the y axis)). The colours are basically determined by how many iterations it took to get to that point on the graph. The end result is you get the most complex shape that has ever been conceived, and it is not derived from incredibly complex equations, but a small simple one. It is this getting complexity out of simplicity that I find really deep and profound, I think this is much more akin to how nature works rather than calculus etc. I can see your point of argument, and I agree that mathematics is in no way a true reflection of nature, it is an approximation.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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Diploid
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: The_Walrus]
#4098021 - 04/26/05 06:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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It is this getting complexity out of simplicity that I find really deep
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Seuss
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4098027 - 04/26/05 06:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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> ok, in terms of units, where there was 2, there is now 0
Incorrect. If we were doing simple math here, you are making the following claim:
5 divided by 2 equals 2 while 2 times 2 equals four, therefore division and multiplication do not work.
You cannot talk about units without showing the units the same way you cannot do integer division and then claim it doesn't work because it fails to match up to floating point division. As one of my phsyics professors used to say, "An apple isn't an orange, now lets assume we have a spherical chicken traveling with a velocity of ... "
An electron with a mass of 'm' traveling with a velocity of 'v' and an energy of A 'kg m^2/s^2' smashes into a positron with a mass of 'm' traveling with a velocity of 'v' and an energy of B 'kg m^2/s^2' smash into each other releasing energy equal to X 'kg m^2/s^2'. The units didn't cancel out to zero as you claim, but combine together into a resulting unit of energy. Both the masses (m) and the velocities (v) are 'transformed' into the resulting energy. (Sorry for the wording, trying to keep this simple.) Nothing is lost and everything balances.
> I am an engineer, not a mathematician so I don't really know details.
I don't know anybody that could pass their PE or even the EIT, without understanding some fairly complex calculus, let alone the simple mathmatical concepts being discussed here. Perhaps you meant engineer as in the guy that drives a train rather than the guy that designs trains?
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slaphappy
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Seuss]
#4098147 - 04/26/05 08:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Math is hebrew in numbers.
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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.
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Diploid
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: slaphappy]
#4098154 - 04/26/05 08:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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More like Greek...
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Shroomerious
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Seuss]
#4098317 - 04/26/05 09:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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> I am an engineer, not a mathematician so I don't really know details.
I don't know anybody that could pass their PE or even the EIT, without understanding some fairly complex calculus, let alone the simple mathmatical concepts being discussed here. Perhaps you meant engineer as in the guy that drives a train rather than the guy that designs trains?
I am a Mechanical and Aeronautical Design Engineer and I laugh at your sarcasm. Now, tell me, why should I be supposed to know different sets of maths? Do you understand that this is a whole different field on its own and it is called mathematics? By the way, did you only read the 3d page maybe? I explained what I meant pretty good. Did you confuse me with someone else?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Shroomerious]
#4099922 - 04/26/05 05:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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look at this, i might be able to bring all of this back around on topic....
We can all agree (i hope) that numbers can represent quantity, and quantity is a perceptual thing, i can see two blobs of clay; that is not invention, but discovery, you didnt invent the blobs of clay (lets not get existential on this one please), you discovered them and discovered the fact that there are 2 of them. Now, if you want to "discover" the mass of blob A + blob B, you have to "invent" an explanation. Now we have started explaining things in this same certain way, where more explanations use the explanations of other things; Mathematics is relative to thought process, just as we consider something 2 units, or 2.366347698 units, we have built this framework of explanations, and from this we can find astoundingly accurate explanations because that is how we have built it...to fit the previous structure of our explanations. Just as you said that 5 divided by 2 is 2, you left out the decimal point, much like i did in my small/large blob scenario, the ability to define quantity is probably infinite; we find that mass is made of molecules made of atoms, made of protons made of beta particles , made of strings made of ad infinitum. This is where the original question lies.... is mathematics an invented explanation through approximate measurements of natures infinity? or is it discovered and there is a final explanation, there is finite-ness, our explanation is correct because that is the way the universe is?
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Shroomerious
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4101742 - 04/27/05 03:15 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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We can not comprehend the essensce of infinity and that is one of the reasons some beleive in god and his infinite kingdom etc etc. But, think of an ant trapped in an imaginary space of 2 dimensions. If the ant can not comprehend the dimension of height because we maybe put a lid on a long box let's say and put it in, there will be no way to escape. As we feel with infinity. But given another dimension, the ant could just climb and escape. What I'm saying is simple. We are trying to suit our finite understanding of the world to something that the world is not. We need to feel more dimensions and then we may be able to just climb over the essence of infinity and escape.
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The_Walrus
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: slaphappy]
#4101802 - 04/27/05 04:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
slaphappy said:
Math is hebrew in numbers.
Or is Hebew Maths in letters? I think it is the true kabbalah (not the shitty celebrity endorsed cult) which analyses the mathematical aspects of the Hebrew texts to devise the name of God. But it is a wasted effort, you can find numbers and patterns anywhere if you look hard enough. They basically use maths as the tool while using religion as a basis for coming to the conclusions.
What makes seperates mathematicians from numerologists like the Kabbalah members is scientific rigour. A new mathematical hypothesis has to be proven beyond doubt using simple logical steps, it is then put under immense scrutiny by fellow mathematicians. Numerologists however assume without a logical basis (more emotional/mystical basis) that certain things have to be true, that the true name of God can be found (and that it will solve all the worlds problems), or that the 9/11 conspiracy theorists who use the numbers of the planes to come up with the date 9/11 and claim that it is part of some grand mystical plan.
Modern mathematics is rooted in the quest for absolute certainty, Renee Descarte (the dude who said 'I think, therefore I am', the only literary absolute truth). In his quest for absolute certainty he devised cartesian geometry (graphs of functions like 'y=x+2'), which is a major pillar of mathematics. The reason why 1+1=2 is an absolute truth is that it is a metaphysical concept, it is an abstract concept, albeit a simple one to get your head around. Mathematics is not proven through physical examples such as clay etc because they cannot be treated like metaphysical entities, they are physical entities, and physical entities are extremely complex. As I said, there are no straight lines or perfect circles in nature, a material object that exactly resembles the graph of, lets say 'y=x squared' is impossible. A ruler for example, is not a straight line, the surface is bumpy, the closer you zoom into it the more imperfections you will find. The beauty of abstract metaphysical reasoning is that you can simply magic away these imperfections and look at the fundamental principles at work.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: The_Walrus]
#4103597 - 04/27/05 04:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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So.....is there any way to post a poll in here now? Since this debate has come about which weighed both sides and explained in depth the different reasons or ideas why math is in their opinion discovered or invented, i wonder if anyone has changed their mind either way.
Discussing this issue has brought me to lean more on the invented side.
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4104455 - 04/27/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: niteowl]
#4104669 - 04/27/05 08:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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cool, thanks, maybe i was delusional in thinking more people were watching/reading this thread...
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niteowl
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4104951 - 04/27/05 09:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think the topic is quite interesting.
First you have to define "what" math is.
Is it the language (algebra, calculus, trig...)
Or the concept/idea behind the language.
The language itself is invented.
The concept/idea behind the language was discovered.
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crunchytoast
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: niteowl]
#4399078 - 07/13/05 08:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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or is the language the conception?
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4399333 - 07/13/05 10:45 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Both, the patterns and congruencies were discovered. Our numerical system, and some of the methods we use to interpret and transcribe math were invented.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4399354 - 07/13/05 10:56 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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My college algebra teacher held the view that Math was a purely human construct. He felt that alien races, if they exist, would not necessarily have a mathematic system.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4399394 - 07/13/05 11:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've heard that math came about as a result of commerce. Then written language and record-keeping came about as a result of taxation.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4399414 - 07/13/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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a construct to help comprehend and sustain a myriad of (ongoing) discoveries of progressions and relationships - thus we have base systems, geometry, trigonometry, logrythmic functions, dimensions etc.
the constructs of language and rigor keep these discoveries in place.
much of art is about progressions and relationships too.
any great painting probably delivers a new branch of mathematics (or two) if given the right measure of attention.
BTW
I enjoyed the thread, but took my time getting around to looking at it.
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_  🧠 _ 
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 20 days
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: redgreenvines]
#4401275 - 07/13/05 07:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
much of art is about progressions and relationships too.
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4404639 - 07/14/05 04:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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So... is mathematics a discovery, or an invention?
Is the artwork inside a block of wood invented or discovered by the sculptor?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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buttonion
Calmly Watching
Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4405891 - 07/14/05 09:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's interesting, and this is sort of a violation of your request not to get all existential, but I don't see how it can be avoided. The dichotomy here has been created by the assumptions made. Either something is a product of us, it is due to us, something we create. Or it is naturally occurring, it is already "out there," due to the universe in a sense. Like the sculptor of a big slab of rock- did the sculpture create the sculpture or discover it by moving away the pieces? Or a scientific discovery- F= MA. Was it created by Newton or was it uncovered by him?
It parallels a basic dichotomy that is inherent in our language- the passive/active dichotomy. You have to use one to describe an event or object- i.e., to utter a meaningful sentence. "I drove the car or the car was driven by me". "I chose to go to college or my past experiences led me to where I am." Freewill vs. determinism. The speakers shook the room or the room was shaken by the speakers --- You demarcate a chink of reality to analyze (a sculpture, math) and then try to account for it. To do this, you have to employ one of these two approaches.
So I would say that they are both true within the (somewhat flexible) system we use to understand reality/experience. A non-superficial, philosophical attempt figure out which is the Truth is a thought provoking and thought clarifying exercise, but in the end, the assumptions of the question should be rejected- which, admittedly, leaves us with no way to communicate about this question anymore, but that's the result of all of the philosophical questions that push against the edges of our axiomatic framework.
A mantra I often employ was mentioned earlier- "the map is not the territory." Which, if taken to its "logical" conclusion, is pretty zen and that's about all I'll say about that.
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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein
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RedNucleus
Causal Observer
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4407151 - 07/15/05 07:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mathematics is a human system for explaining quantitative patterns. These kind of patterns are what is discovered. Math is the way that humans interpret and make use of these patterns, so it is an invention rather than a discovery.
Example: The quadratic formula (-b = plus or minus the square root of b^2 - 4(a)(c) all over 2a, remember?) did not exist, floating on the airwaves before humans first used it. This relationship between all parabolic curves does exist. It was discovered. Then people created (invented) a mathematical formula to interpret this relationship.
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 Namaste
Edited by RedNukleus (07/15/05 08:01 AM)
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futant462
Somewhat Human
Registered: 07/02/05
Posts: 24
Loc: Boston MA
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: RedNucleus]
#4407184 - 07/15/05 08:16 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I disagree, I think it is more correct to reword your last sentence to read "Then people discovered a pre-existing mathmatical relationship that had simply not been unearthed by mankind to this point."
There is much of physics that remains unknown for example, and I feel it is significantly more appropriate to discuss the unknown in terms of that which is still to be discovered, rather than invented. We are not inventing anything in this universe.
The only possibility in which this wording could be necessary is if we had to invent a new language of mathmatics/logic/etc. In order to explain what we had to discover. But in that case it is still not the unknown that we are inventing, it is rather the man-made abstract constructs that we use to identify what we aim to discover that has been invented.
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"no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs; we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed, and love of power.?
-P.J. O'Rourke
What is a Quantum Particle?
The Dreams that stuff is made of!
Edited by futant462 (07/15/05 08:16 AM)
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RedNucleus
Causal Observer
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: futant462]
#4407199 - 07/15/05 08:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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We agree completely. Perhaps my wording was ambiguous, but what I said is the same as what you said. I am using the word mathematics to mean a language used "in order to explain what we had to discover" as you said. That language is the only part of mathematical concepts that was invented. The actual concrete quantitative relationships that exist in the universe are discovered. Explaining them using mathematics is no longer discovery, but invention.
The title of this thread asks whether mathematics is a discovery or invention. My answer is that mathematics is 100% invention. It is used to make many discoveries more understandable and accessible to people.
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Namaste
Edited by RedNukleus (07/15/05 08:28 AM)
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PsilocybinMan
State Alchemist
Registered: 05/25/15
Posts: 391
Loc: דגים ועצ
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: RedNucleus]
#21764221 - 06/05/15 12:56 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
[spills the cocaine] Jesus! You see what God just did to us, man?
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: The_Walrus]
#21764313 - 06/05/15 01:36 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Walrus said:
Mathematic is the pinnacle of certainty, 1+1=2 will always be true, always has been true, and is true for absolutely every sentient being. It is not a matter of opinion. It is the language of logic. How much mathematics reflects how the world works is debatable, but IMO it is the best shot we have of having a certain framework which explains the world around us with absolute certainty. The latest inferences from physics and science are subject to change, but pythagoras' theorem will always, I emphasise, always stay the same and true. So I would put myself firmly in the discovered category. Simply because of the intense rigour with which mathematics seeks proofs etc to get as close to absolute certainty as is humanly possible.
pythagoras theorem only works to a certain power!!
and other faults too.
something to think about-
http://www.cut-the-knot.org/pythagoras/FalseProofs.shtml
maths is a discovery!
eulers identity secures us physics and the physics is explained proved with our invention of maths imo
its circular and 1 relys on another, and are just descriptions of behaviours written in a way we comprehend.
physiscs explaines the behaviour and maths proves it to be so and our math is proved and designed around our best guess at physics, 1 relys on the other to prove itself.
the world is not designed round them rather we designed them around the world.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/05/15 01:51 AM)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21768328 - 06/06/15 12:06 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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This thread is 10 years old. why the fuck would you bump it?
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Quote:
SneezingPenis said:
This thread is 10 years old. why the fuck would you bump it?
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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didnt realize only looked at the time of the post before me sorry 
the other guy bumped it and it was in active topics and i dint realise how old it was lol
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/06/15 01:47 AM)
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hTx
(:
Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21768808 - 06/06/15 03:12 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Measurement is the only relative math. I would say higher concepts such as algebra and geometry would be universal mathematical concepts; discoveries.
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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: hTx]
#21771980 - 06/06/15 09:01 PM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Does it matter if it's discovered or invented?
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
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I think alien races, if there are any, would have some idea of what pi is.
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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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I think meth was both discovered and invented.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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My word that is a creepy gif
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
I think alien races, if there are any, would have some idea of what pi is.
Is that relevant to the question?
Do these alien races have an idea of what a lever is? Does that make a lever invented or discovered?
Do these alien races have an idea of what an electronic computer is? Does that make the computer invented or discovered?
Useful inventions get invented because they are useful. Often people independently invent the same thing because of that utility. Pi is a very useful invention. No doubt many species across the universe would benefit from it, just like they do from inventing the wheel, the lever or the computer.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: DieCommie]
#21778956 - 06/08/15 02:16 PM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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You have to remember we're more closely related to bacteria or a flower then we would be to aliens. Who the fuck knows if they use math or even think mathematically.
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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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You can't invent anything nor discover it. Everything is a remix.
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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R0B0G3N3S1S
Quantum Mechanic
Registered: 04/08/15
Posts: 330
Loc: Noosphere
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: Asante]
#21780458 - 06/08/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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Certain forms of math that are different from what is seen today is an inherent ability of some, if not all, people. It's part of that reptilian brain and the third eye and stuff.
"—“All” is of “One” or “One” is “All.” So closely bound is each to other, that neither can be parted from its mate."
the important word here is mate. This implies an inverse relationship (think hermetic principle of gender) of ONE and ALL. If ONE and ALL are functions, then equal and opposites are established by inverse functions (hermetic principle of polarity)... or something a long those lines. (kinda rusty, gotta get those cogs turning again).
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One should of, but shouldn't of had to.
Because One Shouldn't of, but had to.
Pm me If you are trying to discuss that one thing that everybody knows but is so hard to put into words.
Edited by R0B0G3N3S1S (06/08/15 08:02 PM)
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youknowyou
Stranger
Registered: 07/27/14
Posts: 247
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: R0B0G3N3S1S]
#21780597 - 06/08/15 08:25 PM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
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but what ONE means?
is there even ONE out there?
I seriously dont see what is one in the universe and I see a true contradiction with statements like: all is one.
it seems to be quite infinite in the universe. when someone say ''all'', it seem like a thing that is stable, something that is. however, it always change, evolve, grow, with infinite possibilities of consciousness.
if you look at how universe works, it seems theres always two all the time: black/white, life/death, male/female, light/dark ect.
so, if there's infinite, finite should be a reality. however, nothing in this universe seems finite.
so, what is finite? as we can all agree about infinity, logically, there should be something that is finite. something right here right now that is finite.
when someone say all is one, he means that he understood that everyone and everything is in us. everything is in 1.
we could maybe represent all/infinity by the number 1 and finite by the number 0.
what do represent zero? nothing. nothing do not contain anything. if we can agree that in the universe everything comes into two parts, there should be a universe and no universe, no life/no death.
very interesting imo
zero wishes, zero desire, zero problem.
I think the key is to understand the nothingness, the emptiness, that is all in us.as long as we think we are one, we do not see the other reality which is zero.
when you look at science, they have shown that the universe is builded with very small particles that collapse into each other, constantly changing, ect.
what we consider as finite things like a apple, a car, is actually not a finite thing that is stable, its constantly changing even though, because of our limited optic vison, we cannot seethe building block, the small particles that create the car. furthermore, what we consider as ours, as me, cannot be true. theres nothing that is one. everything is constantly changing and there's nothing we can point and say: this is me or mine or this is truly one. so, infinity is a reality.
there's no-thing in the universe. there's no thing you can point that is stable. even in the polarity, there's different shades of white, different shades of happiness and suffering, ect. there's nothing that seem to be totally black or white, its always quite infinite.
infinitely changing is the reality of our universe. if infinite really do exist, as the polarity in the universe shows us, there's obligatory the possibility of finite.
I'd think that zero/ nothing/ emptiness is the other part of that reality/polarity.
do we know the reality zero? no and I think that what we have to find out, inside of us, and inside of everything, nothingness. because sadly, its also part of the reality
as long as we try to make something out of nothing, there's no way out of the polarity life and death, satisfaction and unsatisfaction, black and white.
Edited by youknowyou (06/09/15 12:01 AM)
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PsilocybinMan
State Alchemist
Registered: 05/25/15
Posts: 391
Loc: דגים ועצ
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Re: Math: discovered or invented? [Re: youknowyou]
#21851167 - 06/24/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edited by PsilocybinMan (06/24/15 05:33 PM)
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