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Offlinesox24
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Language and Its Shapes
    #3278873 - 10/26/04 11:59 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nothing can be proven, but I believe that sounds, music, and language are shaped. What I have been trying to realize is that meaning is even shaped, feeling. You probably already do, but watch people's mouths when you can't hear them. You can just see intelligence pouring out, with some people you see stupidity as their words sink like ordinary rocks.

What do you believe of all this? Our our words, our thoughts being sent to something. Is this the strangest thing that you could ever imagine? But do you not love it? If you are here you should love it, at least this once. Life is getting rough, but also more psychedelic (lovely). It is like the extremes are being pulled from the mixture in reality. Our words, which are somehow partly our soul, are the only things really here.


Edited by sox24 (10/26/04 12:11 PM)


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: sox24]
    #3278996 - 10/26/04 12:30 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Concepts behind communication can be subjectively linked to other perceptual concepts, like shapes. I would be hesitant to say that they are objectively 'shaped', but I can see the reasoning of your analogy here.

I mean sounds, spoken words, are nothing more than millions of vibrating air particles sending some energy accross an area of air to the ear, translated into neurological signals (somehow :wink:), and recognized as a single, concrete sound.

Written word, is nothing more than the fuzzy arrangement of millions of ink particles of a piece of paper. The same word, let's say Hello, can be written billions of times and yet never have the same configuration of ink molecules, while all the while our limited optical precision presents them as all the same 'word'.

So obviously these media are inert themselves, and it is the observer (us) who subconsciously attaches meanings to our senses. So here you have two very different observatory points (people) with an seemingly inseperatable veil of individuality between them, and yet these inert pathways between these points somehow connect them through supposed mutual understanding.

The reciever however has to have the same relationship of medium to concept as the sender, otherwise the intended message is never the same. This is odd, as we synchronize our meanings based around others' that we hear/see and 'logically' link to the supposed intention.

And yet, we, as these apparantly seperate observational points will never be sure that our concepts are ever shared. These symbols are just inert symbols, void of any meaning whatsoever. We hope then that the people sensing the intentionally altered medium applies the same, or atleast similar, decryption process as we had encrypted the concept in. But how do we know? They can tell us they understand, but this too is an assumption in itself.

So language is beyond the media it exists as is what I'm trying to say. It's really quite amazing that we've synchronized our assumed understandings of these with others, and that such a system even works. Mind-boggling :smile:

I know this had nothing to do with shapes, but language is interesting itself :laugh:


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: deff]
    #3279008 - 10/26/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Concepts behind communication can be subjectively linked to other perceptual concepts, like shapes. I would be hesitant to say that they are objectively 'shaped', but I can see the reasoning of your analogy here.

I mean sounds, spoken words, are nothing more than millions of vibrating air particles sending some energy accross an area of air to the ear, translated into neurological signals (somehow :wink:), and recognized as a single, concrete sound.

Written word, is nothing more than the fuzzy arrangement of millions of ink particles of a piece of paper. The same word, let's say Hello, can be written billions of times and yet never have the same configuration of ink molecules, while all the while our limited optical precision presents them as all the same 'word'.

So obviously these media are inert themselves, and it is the observer (us) who subconsciously attaches meanings to our senses. So here you have two very different observatory points (people) with an seemingly inseperatable veil of individuality between them, and yet these inert pathways between these points somehow connect them through supposed mutual understanding.

The reciever however has to have the same relationship of medium to concept as the sender, otherwise the intended message is never the same. This is odd, as we synchronize our meanings based around others' that we hear/see and 'logically' link to the supposed intention.

And yet, we, as these apparantly seperate observational points will never be sure that our concepts are ever shared. These symbols are just inert symbols, void of any meaning whatsoever. We hope then that the people sensing the intentionally altered medium applies the same, or atleast similar, decryption process as we had encrypted the concept in. But how do we know? They can tell us they understand, but this too is an assumption in itself.

So language is beyond the media it exists as is what I'm trying to say. It's really quite amazing that we've synchronized our assumed understandings of these with others, and that such a system even works. Mind-boggling :smile:

I know this had nothing to do with shapes, but language is interesting itself :laugh:




you explained this as well or more thoroughly then i would have. here's an added bonus though (!?!?!!)
suggested reading:



Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
Singular, compelling and courageously honest, this book is more than just a poignant memoir of a harrowingly abusive childhood. It relates the extraordinary journey of one man striving to save his own spirit and our planet's. Comparing his physically and sexually abusive father's destruction of his family with humankind's systematic destruction of civilization, New York Times Magazine contributor Jensen (Listening to the Land) tells a story about the hope for regeneration in a landscape of human and natural desolation. Throughout, Jensen mobilizes his experiences as student, teacher, environmentalist, beekeeper, high jumper, abused child and survivor to delve deeper inside his own wounded psyche while condemning the constrictions of a culture that fosters abuse. In lyrical prose, Jensen calls for accountability and urges people "to live in dynamic equilibrium with the rest of the world." Rather than na?vely proposing an answer to the ills of modernity, he demonstrates the complexity of the problems by examining an array of environmental and sociopolitical atrocities, including the Holocaust, and what he sees as the reckless production of plutonium to further space exploration and the maltreatment of indigenous peoples by self-serving neighbors. His visceral, biting observations always manage to lead back to his mantra: "Things don't have to be the way they are." Jensen's book accomplishes the rare feat of both breaking and mending the reader's heart. 15,000 first printing; 10-city author tour. (May)
Copyright 2000 Reed Business Information, Inc.


Family Therapy Networker, July-August 2000
"Be forwarned: this book will grab your attention and keep you reading even when you want to put it down."


Book Description
At once a beautifully poetic memoir and an exploration of the various ways we live in the world, A Language Older Than Words explains violence as a pathology that touches every aspect of our lives, and indeed affects all aspects of life on earth. This chronicle of Derrick Jensen's drive to transcend domestic abuse offers a challenging look at our worldwide sense of community, and how we can make things better.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893956032/002-8636694-4298406?v=glance


Edited by trick (10/26/04 12:36 PM)


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: trick]
    #3279027 - 10/26/04 12:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the suggestion, looks like a nifty book

I'll check it out :smile:


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: sox24]
    #3279070 - 10/26/04 01:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ahahahaha Sox!

No wonder why I jumped to give you your first "you kick ass " rating!
Shapes and sounds is the stuff I was talking about regarding the "new math" that can prove stuff. I was talking about geometrics and wave pulses and densities all being calculated in ways that create form structures, like morph fields, that create realities be them, in the mind or in tangible form.

I'm shown these fileds in dream time a lot. Once, I dreamnt I was reading here, but it wasn't typed text, it was colorlight patterns that flowed and I could read that like words. Wild.

Anyway, it was fun to see this post, as I see more are seeing it. He He He


Def,

you touched on somethingvery important that I was going to write about in the opinions and facts thread related to what jaques said about languange not cutting it and why we have to use words "loosley" when discussing abstracts.

If you can get in resonant harmony with another, you barely have to say anything to understand what each other means- hense the expression when you catch someone thinking just like you are

"We must be on the same wavelength" Thats exactly it!

Abstracts can travel through those wavelengths easily. It's how telepathy works just like radio waves. the sender and recieiver have to be tuned into the same station "frequency".

This is where some Zen shit can come into play. You can suspend yourself and become one with another by "letting" go and feeling them.

People "in love" experience this naturally and just "know" what the other is thinking (thats why they giggle so much or spend a lot of time just staring at each other saying nothing and yet so much is going on between them) . It's that magical time when two become one and move as one mind and one heart effortlessly.

When judgemtns that separate and divide get in the way or disonant emotions and beleifs get thrown in, the magic is lost.

Oh well, blah blah, great tpic and reply def. This post has amperage! Who needs coffee when you have synchronization!

Like the Zepher Song by the RHCP says, rev it up to levitate her! Wooooohooooooooooo


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3279083 - 10/26/04 01:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I agree that people can resonate their thoughts, but the hard part is becoming aware to this resonation.

Someone can say that they are on the same 'wavelength' as you, but how do you really know this besides aligning your views with your assumption of their views based around your decoding of their presented language.

I think a definite way to get closer to true resonation (I'm hesitant to say that perfect resonation is possible, short of becoming the same person) is through zen-states. When you are able to let go of evereything and fall into the underlying awareness, I think there is a much greater resonation between two people with this awareness than two people with similar non-Zen mindesets.

Basically, zero for one is zero for another. :smile:

Cool topic indeed :cool:


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: trick]
    #3279148 - 10/26/04 01:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have the same mantra as that dude who wrote the book.

"Things don't have to be the way they are" I've used it since child hood. LOL It's liberating and breeds inovation.

def, you know when you loose resonance with someone when responces no longer mesh. You hit an impass and can go no further. I think that happens when fear vibes creep in and jamm communications OR one of the two doesn't have the wiring installed yet to process said abstract yet.


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3279165 - 10/26/04 01:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm just saying that resonance of any form is still an assumption.

We percieve our perceptions to 'mesh', but this is still independant from the other person.

We are truly isolated within our selves, and the veils between them are constant, only illusional pathways of communication are connecting them. Or something :smile:

I think that the veils too are illusionary, in the sense that we are all the single being, but these veils will remain concrete so long as our perception of individualism does. They have already dissolved, or rather, they were never manifested, only imagined by the single being which we all 'is'.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: sox24]
    #3279183 - 10/26/04 01:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

how can you prove nothing?


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: Gomp]
    #3279199 - 10/26/04 01:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
how can you prove nothing?




With "something". :cool:  Doesn't everything come from nothing? :wink:

I hear ya def. Thats why the magic never lasts. We are individuals. But for brief moments in time we get to re-member ourselves as one and it feels good.


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3279207 - 10/26/04 01:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

And that brief moment of time becomes eternal inside of itself :smile:


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: deff]
    #3279212 - 10/26/04 01:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :smile: :thumbup: :heart:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3280699 - 10/26/04 07:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

it's interesting to consider how these concepts might lace in with a thread I posted a while back on the subject of synchronization and matching resonate frequencies of thought...

Not sure what else I want to contribute to this yet, I'll have to think some more.. hehe.


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3280715 - 10/26/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

maybe they will fit in with what I just typed in the morph field thread.


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3280802 - 10/26/04 08:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

if so,(?) nothing come from nothing...

language is interesting, i speak Norwegian some Spanish and English.
i find i some times (or maybe very often) think in all 3, forming one "deep" sentence giving me yet another way of seeing it. the tricky part is i can not make it out in one language, it then make no sense, what I'm getting at here might just be that language in different countries, may appear to be "related to that way of thinking" i certainly "find" "hidden" meaning in many words iv taken for words in the past, yet now can read almost like a book :P


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Edited by Gomp (10/26/04 08:16 PM)


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Re: Language and Its Shapes [Re: Gomp]
    #3280837 - 10/26/04 08:26 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It's certainly interesting to take into consideration the idea that being multi-lingual would allow one to think in a multi-lingual way that allows one to kind of bypass the limitations of each individual language.

I never considered this back in the day when I was asked if I wanted to take "french or spanish"... I simply chose neither, because I couldn't see the value in knowing another language unless I was going to live in another country.

Now, however, I somewhat regret not having taken the opportunity to progress "above" language, so to speak. It's ironic to consider that to move beyond language one would have to learn multiple languages.

However, at the same time, I have to acknowledge that I have my own ways of thinking "above" language. I think abstractly a lot of the time. Not necessarily pictures or any one concrete "medium"... more like diagrams that explain themselves in my head. I see diagrams and other visual aids that allow me to think "above" language in my own way.

The problem with that comes when I try to translate the diagrams into English.

But I guess that's the very same issue you encounter when trying to simplify your thoughts into one of the three languages you know.


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