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Eternal Recurrence of the Same
    #5249448 -

"This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything immeasurably small or great in your life must return to you-all in the same succession and sequence-even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned over and over, and you with it, a grain of dust." --Friedrich Nietzsche

The totality of one's perceptual experience (consciousness) exists solely within the period between the exact moment of one's conception and the exact moment of one's death; prior to birth and after death, nothingess -- a complete lack of any sensation or perception. If, in essence, time is truly relative (as physics has shown) and infinitely divisible, and birth and death are two endpoints on a line with nothing beyond either side, how can one not make the conclusion of eternal recurrence?

It seems to me that the experience between our birth and death (life) can be viewed as one instantaneous flash in eternity, and any time intervals which we attempt to ascribe between the two events are ultimately arbitrary.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5250127 -

One proposes this time loop to support the idea of a persistent self separate from the universe, however, as I can't see the sun orbiting earth, though millions have considered that in the past, I don't buy into personal universes with ground hog day scenarios except in schemas for dream work.

the only fragment of truth I can squeeze after interpretting this metaphysical conjecture is that some loop in time space exists, and we are that.

I extrapolate that the loop pinches and twists something of the enduring totality into the context, span, and shell of an individual being in some natural way, yet it is still a thin membrane away from comprehension to me.

Contrary to the main post, I see no reason that anything merits repeating beyond the extent of an arizing and a passing away of some complex wave patterns.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5250310 -

I think you're misinterpreting Nietzsche. His idea of "eternal recurrance" was more of an ethical/moral proposition. That is, you should live your life as if you had to repeat it over and over for all eternity.

This doesn't take anything away from your point, btw. There was an article in Scientific American a few years ago (I might've posted it, but I'm not sure) about a physicist with a similar view of time. I think he was British.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Sclorch]
    #5250498 -

Sclorch said:
I think you're misinterpreting Nietzsche. His idea of "eternal recurrance" was more of an ethical/moral proposition. That is, you should live your life as if you had to repeat it over and over for all eternity.


I don't know about that, but who can say for sure? Either way, I just felt that the quote was relevant to the topic I was presenting.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5251090 -

Nietzsche had some interesting logic, and I wonder about it. The Eternal Recurrence is a fascinating topic to me.

If we say that time is infinite, and the universe is constantly changing, then it does not necessarily mean that we will experience every possibility. Nonetheless, over an infinite period of time, will the universe sort of fall into stable patterns due to its laws and constituent particles? If this is true, then this time period, with all of us here, is one of those stable periods, and if time is infinite, it would seem inevitable that it would return.

However, the current heat death theory of the universe, which I subscribe to based on the evidence accumulated, says that the universe will continue expanding at an accelerating rate. Inevitably, all the stars, galaxies, planets and matter will blink out, until there is nothing left besides random photons flitting through a dead universe. If it stopped here, then all hope of the anything besides a dead universe would be lost.

But this is not necessarily the end. Some scientists say that when this period occurs, the so-called "heat death" where no matter or black hole is left, then the laws of the quantum and the laws of the universe will blur into one, where rips in the spacetime fabric by quantum particles can cause extreme and fascinating results. Who knows what would happen in a heat death state of quantum particles? Maybe even the birth of something new- and if something new was born, it seems inevitable to recycle back into the old, as long as time continues into infinity.

This is all pure speculation, however. I wouldn't bet money on it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Ravus]
    #5251397 -

I'm willing to bet money on it. I can't wait for it all to happen.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Icelander]
    #5251412 -

If you're right, then it already has.

"Everything becomes and recurs eternally - escape is impossible! - Supposing we could judge value, what follows? The idea of recurrence as a selective principle, in the service of strength...

To endure the idea of the recurrence one needs: freedom from morality; new means against the fact of pain ( pain conceived as a tool, as the father of pleasure...); the enjoyment of all kinds of uncertainty, experimentalism, as a counterweight to this extreme fatalism; abolition of the concept of necessity; abolition of the 'will'; abolition of 'knowledge-in-itself.'

Greatest elevation of the consciousness of strength in man, as he creates the Overman."


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Ravus]
    #5251436 -

I'm interested in what you're just said. Please explain "the abolition of the will." :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Icelander]
    #5251635 -

That's actually a Nietzsche quote, hence the quotation marks. I thought it explained his view of the eternal recurrence quite well, along with its use in the evolution of humanity.

"To endure the idea of the recurrence one needs: freedom from morality; new means against the fact of pain ( pain conceived as a tool, as the father of pleasure...); the enjoyment of all kinds of uncertainty, experimentalism, as a counterweight to this extreme fatalism; abolition of the concept of necessity; abolition of the 'will'; abolition of 'knowledge-in-itself.'"

One of the most open Nietzsche quotes you'll find that helps to explain much of his philosophy in a nutshell. He believed that many ideas that we take for granted, such as free will, were actually illusions, continued throughout the generations because of tradition and stagnation. To rise above the old and traditional and create something entirely new, something entirely your own, was the mark of a great man.

Freedom from morality is self-evident, as what is morality besides moldy chains accumulated through time? Morality is most definitely useful for the herd, as it helps to keep the herd unified- but anyone who wants to rise above it and distinguish himself must abolish it, otherwise he'll be following old rules and chaining himself down.

There is no life without suffering. Suffering is not evil, because evil is, like morality, a herd-related concept. You must go beyond good and evil to see the true nature of suffering, and in it, you'll see the progress of life and all great men. Without suffering, nothing would have evolved.

And if the eternal recurrence is true, then the concept of the will as is commonly perceived is flawed. We cannot have such a thing as free will, or the will to choose, or the will to do anything, because our will does not actually exist anymore than a black hole has a will to trap all light in it. We are the universe, and the only "will" is our will to power, and that itself only follows greatness.

"Suppose nothing else were "given" as real except our world of desires and passions, and we could not get down, or up, to any other "reality" besides the reality of our drives--for thinking is merely a relation of these drives to each other: is it not permitted to make the experiment and to ask the question whether this "given" would not be sufficient for also understanding on the basis of this kind of thing the so-called mechanistic (or "material") world?..."
-Nietzsche


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Ravus]
    #5251666 -

I think I understand and I am not in disagreement as it is presented here. It fits well with my personal beliefs and is not opposed to any concept I hold.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5251774 -

itstarssaddam said:
"This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything immeasurably small or great in your life must return to you-all in the same succession and sequence-even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned over and over, and you with it, a grain of dust." --Friedrich Nietzsche

The totality of one's perceptual experience (consciousness) exists solely within the period between the exact moment of one's conception and the exact moment of one's death; prior to birth and after death, nothingess -- a complete lack of any sensation or perception. If, in essence, time is truly relative (as physics has shown) and infinitely divisible, and birth and death are two endpoints on a line with nothing beyond either side, how can one not make the conclusion of eternal recurrence?

It seems to me that the experience between our birth and death (life) can be viewed as one instantaneous flash in eternity, and any time intervals which we attempt to ascribe between the two events are ultimately arbitrary.


this is a good enough theory but to me it is severely lacking ...... of course all this debating is circular but .... think about it..... Why THIS life, to be lived over and over? Why you instead of your pet dog?

This life is indeed a line segment...... but the thing is the endpoint and the beginning point are connected to all other living things.

Like you have this ()---------------() one being birth, one being death.

But that is infinite, right? In one essence ()---------------() is all there is.

But since that is all there is it is more like
()---------------()()---------------()()---------------()
etc.

For me I think of deep sleep. Our brains almost flatline in delta waves..... yet somehow we still manage to piece ourselves back together, into dreams where we may not know who we are, and we may live entirely new lives, and eventually into being awake again where our identity is solidifed once more.

Death is like that, but you don't wake up from the dream segment, after the initial process of dying you have no ego (presumably, if you do have one then the process might be much more confusing for you) and then you gradually start asking, who, what, when how..... and you start clinging to things. You are in an unfolding dream sequence, meeting your karma (your karma = YOU! everything you have ever done) and you eventually form a new ego (simply out of attachment) to encapsulate some sort of nuance of the drema scene.

once attached to, the dream fragments solidify forming a new identity. Perhaps of being an animal, perhaps another person. Perhaps you just wait quietly and come through fully cognizant and lucid of what is going on.

This is a Buddhisti-ish perspective and is what I've come to think happens based upon my readings of Buddhism, 3-4-5 years of lucid dreaming, and a year of moderate drug use with a few trips, nothing beyond level 2 borderline level 3.

But its dreams and sleep that I think really show us what death and rebirth are.

(!)-------you--------(!)------someone else-----(!)----dog----(!)

keep in mind life creates new life, its call sexing up.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (02/01/06 06:14 PM)

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5251836 -

"This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live
Quote:
once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything immeasurably small or great in your life must return to you-all in the same succession and sequence-even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned over and over, and you with it, a grain of dust." --Friedrich Nietzsche



Stephen Hawking killed this idea because he has some crazy equation to prove time had a beginning.


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Trust thyself.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: justAkid]
    #5252833 -

That is, of course, assuming this universe is the only thing that exists, when some quantum physicists who follow the Many-Worlds Interpretation would disagree.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Ravus]
    #5254226 -

Ravus said:
That is, of course, assuming this universe is the only thing that exists, when some quantum physicists who follow the Many-Worlds Interpretation would disagree.


But the many worlds interpretation is pretty weak. It's a more of a mathematical loophole than a real possibility... Occam's razor shreds it.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Sclorch]
    #5255410 -

I realize that the Many Worlds interpretion is pure speculation (along with all the other interpretions of quantum physics), but I find it interesting nonetheless.

And I am not positive that this universe is all there is. I would not be surprised if there are other universes out there (a bit of contradiction with the uni- prefix, but that's semantics for you) as some of the scientific theories around string theory or the end of the universe leave us with a few possibilities.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Eternal Recurrence of the Same [Re: Ravus]
    #5255531 -

I'm just waiting for some crazy new findings to come out of CERN.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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