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InvisibleInnvertigo
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1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha
    #489628 - 12/13/01 10:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's a happy day for Americans. The antiquated ABM treaty is no more (in six months) and the libies are whining as usual. Tom "i'm a pussy" Dashell stated that "Many Democrats believe pulling out of the ABM treaty unnecessarily antagonizes the Russians,because there is no indication a missile defense system would work. " Eh hey puss the ABM treaty wasn't with the Russians, it was with the Soviet Union. ha ha... And the idea that we shouldn't try something if we're not 100% it can work is just plain ignorance. We would of never put a man on the moon if we were a 100%, we would of never had AEGIS if we weren't a 100% and we would of never had inventions if we had to be a 100%....we are americans, along with our allies we can do anything we set our minds to!!!!!!

'ol Tommy boy is bucking for another beating in 2004.....as i was saying we can now enter into our missle defense and protect the land of America and it's alies and the dumbfuck whiners of the world can't do a thing about it. However the libbies will not go away quietly i'm just hoping that they go away on this issue and the following quote from Tommy Boy shows his position:

"Daschle said although it is his understanding Bush has the authority to unilaterally pull out of the treaty, he is researching what "specific legal options Congress has" to stop it. He admitted such options may be limited. "

WOOO HOOOO....We are a little safer today..


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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (12/13/01 10:50 AM)


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Offlinemm.
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Innvertigo]
    #489644 - 12/13/01 11:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Would a missile defence system protect america from the sort of threat it faces today... bioterrorism, airliners falling on buildings, suicide bombers etc..? Who has ever fired a missile at the US mainland?


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OfflineTrail_Blazer
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: mm.]
    #489645 - 12/13/01 11:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Japan tried using hot air balloons to drop bombs on the west coast during world war II. Apparently that didn't work out to well as many dropped out in the wilderness and didn't detonate. As for missles, maybe someday in the future it may happen, but i agree mm, we have more realistic present threats.

Peace


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: mm.]
    #489653 - 12/13/01 11:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

****Would a missile defence system protect america from the sort of threat it faces today****

Whose to say that them are the only problems we face today. I am happy to note that that is one scenerio we are prepared for. All i know is that not allowing a missle defense is a kin to allowing visa holders to just waltz right through out door where they have the ability to crash planes etc. The problem with most people is that they are preparing for things that have already happened and not for those that haven't. I doubt that there will be another WTC crashing (i could be wrong) becaue we will be more prepared.

****Who has ever fired a missile at the US mainland? ****

No one has.....that's my point. Prior to sept. 11th whose attacked us the way they did?..no one.


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Trail_Blazer]
    #489658 - 12/13/01 11:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

****Japan tried using hot air balloons to drop bombs on the west coast during world war II. Apparently that didn't work out to well as many dropped out in the wilderness and didn't detonate. ****

we have a defense for that..it's called radar.

****As for missles, maybe someday in the future it may happen, but i agree mm, we have more realistic present threats.****

So we should wait until we are attacked to impliment it? I prefer to be proactive then reactive. We don't know what our "more realistic threats" are. Who would of thought that the WTC's would of been taken down by 2 planes...would you have us install gun turants on top of the new WTC's so it doesn't happen again? or would tightening down security and on visa's be a better way?

To secure peace, prepare for war is not just a cliche' but a realistic look on the world....unless you're a pacifist (not you in general)


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTrail_Blazer
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Innvertigo]
    #489662 - 12/13/01 11:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

During world war II our radar sucked and was in the first stages of development, hence the reason we didn't know Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor. The radar was still a new technology. The United States actually did see the Japanese planes on radar before the pearl harbor attack, but they attributed this to a "malfunction" because no one thought the Japanese would do such a thing.

Now, i'm not saying we'll be attacked by hot air balloon bombs, so no need to flame me on that. I was just illustrating the fact that there was a time when the US mainland was attacked by something similiar to a missle (at least a hot air balloon could be considered equvilant during World War II time period).

Also, if we erect a missle defense shield then rogue nations will just resort to terrorism in my opinion. And i'd rather wake up and be killed by a missle outright then die a lingering death from a biochemical agent or nuclear radiation from a dirty bomb. Thats my opinion.

Peace


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Trail_Blazer]
    #489677 - 12/13/01 11:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

****During world war II our radar sucked and was in the first stages of development, hence the reason we didn't know Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor. The radar was still a new technology****

That was my point.....our radar get better because we are innovated and improved it. The same goes for missle defense

****Now, i'm not saying we'll be attacked by hot air balloon bombs, so no need to flame me on that****

Whose flaming?...a disagreement does not equal flaming

****Also, if we erect a missle defense shield then rogue nations will just resort to terrorism in my opinion****

So be it...terrorism is small scale even WTC in the full realm of an all out war is pretty small....ask London how many of their buildings were taken down in WW2...also they need monet to operate..money can be easily traced. I guess what i'm saying is their will always be terrorism no matter what we do and i'm not so naive to see that. However limiting an enemy's option is my goal. If we were boxing and i had a defense for your right then all i would have to worry about would be your left...unless you were tyson and it really wouldn't matter. :)

****And i'd rather wake up and be killed by a missle outright ***

Along with millions of people...not me

****then die a lingering death from a biochemical agent or nuclear radiation from a dirty bomb****

Biochemical agents are not as easily spread as you may think and a dirty bomb is like a low yield bomb. So you would rather have millions die then the few (comparingly) with a dirty (not always reliable) bomb??..hmmm



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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Innvertigo]
    #489969 - 12/13/01 05:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

what would building a missle defense shield accomplish?

If a rouge state were to fire a ballistic missle at the US mainland it would quite possibly set off the end of humanity. The ensuing rain of missles from responding nations would make any shield laughable. The Russians are not concerned with being made impotent, they have thousands of warheads, any defense sheild we could engineer will only block a dozen or so missles. The Chinese and several other small nuclear powers are now being relegated to a position of no longer standing as a nuclear player. Therefore they will in all likelyhood build many more nuclear weapons. Abandoning the ABM treaty will escalate nuclear proliferation to the scale of a new arms race. The worlds strategic ballance will be ruined, not that it is even rational to begin with.

As Robert Hellyer wrote recently, "Five centuries ago the powerful ming dynasty built the 1500 mile wall, that periods equivalent of the presidents proposed missle defense shield... In his September 6 news confernce with Mexican President Vicente Fox, Bush asserted that "fearful people build walls, confident people tear them down"
Missle defense is a foolish pursuit, bush is a hypocritical idot following the very philosophies that have led the world into a state of the "Brinkmanship of annihillation."

Moreso than any other threat humanity faces, the Nuclear threat poses a truely genocidal apocalypse. We should not be travelling further down this path of death, we should be doing everything to do away with these weapons.


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OfflineElPrimo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Lenore]
    #490413 - 12/13/01 11:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"what would building a missle defense shield accomplish? "

The building of it would generate billions of dollars for all the wealthy owners of various companies and corporations that finance GW, most Republicans, and quite a few Democrats.

A big government program. I don't know why Republicans don't have any problem spending billions on this junk and helping these companies make money but turn their back on big programs to fund education, transportation, energy development, healthcare and other programs which would actually improve peoples lives.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Lenore]
    #491081 - 12/14/01 03:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

****If a rouge state were to fire a ballistic missle at the US mainland it would quite possibly set off the end of humanity****

oh no the sky is falling....actually i don't think a lot of them care..rogue nations that is

***Abandoning the ABM treaty will escalate nuclear proliferation to the scale of a new arms race***

Ya mean kind of like what pakistan, India and China are doing right now?..hmmmi would hate that to become reality...wait a minute, it is reality

***As Robert Hellyer wrote recently, "Five centuries ago the powerful ming dynasty built the 1500 mile wall, that periods equivalent of the presidents proposed missle defense shield... ***

Eh?..whatever...the great wall was a great defense but without innovation it will in time become useless....just like the ABM treaty

****Bush asserted that "fearful people build walls, confident people tear them down"****

Out of context...Apples and Oranges....our "wall" as you put it is useless towards today's threats..a new one needs to be built

***Missle defense is a foolish pursuit, bush is a hypocritical idot following the very philosophies that have led the world into a state of the "Brinkmanship of annihillation." ****

They said the same thing about the airplane, rocket, and the man on the moon...why should you be any different?

****the Nuclear threat poses a truely genocidal apocalypse. We should not be travelling further down this path of death, we should be doing everything to do away with these weapons. ****

Why are you against protecting fellow americans? With this defense a country would have to be MAD to try to attack us ie: a deterant. Is it some sort of political correctness your trying to give to rogue and not-so rogue states? The best offense is a great defense


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: ElPrimo]
    #491088 - 12/14/01 03:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Alter ego???

****The building of it would generate billions of dollars for all the wealthy owners of various companies and corporations that finance GW, most Republicans, and quite a few Democrats. ****

I do believe we have our old friend lenore,...er i mean Elprimo the Socialist...well just from this response it is apparant that you are in the dark. Corporations hire average people without these businesses average people wouldn't work. These contracts go out to companies that employ people of all political beliefs. Leave it up to you to move this thread to class envy.


****I don't know why Republicans don't have any problem spending billions on this junk and helping these companies make money but turn their back on big programs to fund education, transportation, energy development, healthcare and other programs which would actually improve peoples lives. ****

maybe if you start your own thread on this topic we can discuse it for the 100th time





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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Innvertigo]
    #491099 - 12/14/01 03:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

""They said the same thing about the airplane, rocket, and the man on the moon...why should you be any different? ""

actually they did not. Nuclear weapons can not be compared in any way with these other technologies. I know of no plane or traditional rocket, or man on the moon capable of whiping entire cities off the face of the planet.


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Lenore]
    #491103 - 12/14/01 03:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

furthermore, for a fraction of the costs it takes to build a missle defense shield, we could buy up all of Russia's stored nuclear materials. It is these stockpiles of metals that will probably make thier way into the hands of terrorist and rogue nations alike and pose a real risk to Americans. Russia has already said they would cooperate on this, but of course doing that would be rational now wouldn't it?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Lenore]
    #491109 - 12/14/01 03:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

****actually they did not. ***

actually they did....read a book


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Lenore]
    #491116 - 12/14/01 04:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

***furthermore, for a fraction of the costs it takes to build a missle defense shield, we could buy up all of Russia's stored nuclear materials***

Russia isn't our #1 threat

****Russia has already said they would cooperate on this, but of course doing that would be rational now wouldn't it? ****

Russia agreed to lower nukes to 2100 units....not sell us all ther plutonium.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Innvertigo]
    #491356 - 12/14/01 08:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Innvertigo,
you are ill-informed on this. Russia is a major threat to US security, they have loads of weapon grade and dirty nuclear materials that exist in low security locales all over the former soviet union. They have also made it clear that if the US were to move on a joint plan to secure these materials they would fully cooperate.

I did not say Russia is our #1 threat, in fact I think Putin's government is a strong allie to Bush's.

But please, what in your opinion is our #1 threat?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Lenore]
    #491854 - 12/15/01 10:07 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

***you are ill-informed on this. Russia is a major threat to US security, they have loads of weapon grade and dirty nuclear materials that exist in low security locales all over the former soviet union. ***

No you missed my point. Sure they are a threat, just not our number one threat.

****They have also made it clear that if the US were to move on a joint plan to secure these materials they would fully cooperate. ****

Do you have an article on this? I would really like to read it (i'm serious). As long as it's not on the onion or anything. My question is how come the mighty russian kingdom can't secure the materials themselves?

****But please, what in your opinion is our #1 threat? ****

I would have to say china. They are an expantionist(sp) government with the ability to cause a lot of havoc...not to mention all the secrets KKKlinton sold..or just gave to them....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineHiroller
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Innvertigo]
    #492876 - 12/16/01 03:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

THe missile defense program is a nice enough idea but with all advances it will not work. SUre they may actually get it up and operational, ready to blow up any missile threatening Amercian soil at the expense of billions of Americans dollars, money that could be going to schools which are sub-par in the global economy. But the thing with the Star Wars plan is that when we do get it operational, someone else will develop a technology that enables them to bypass the missile defense system, rendering a multi-billion dollar project obsolete. And it will escalate the arms race to higher proportions. If the US does create a missile defense system, then we possess the opportunity to strike at any country without too much fear of retaliation. Will we do it? Probably not, even with our politicans who get our country involved in to many wars for business-related reasons but our enemies might percieve it as such and any progress we have made at uniting the greater powers in the world might be made null. The greatest of presidents are remembered not for escalating the war but for detente. So why should we encourage the rest of the world tofear us? Fear breeds paranoia and resentment, something already plaguing our country.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Hiroller]
    #492919 - 12/16/01 03:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

***THe missile defense program is a nice enough idea but with all advances it will not work. ***

And you have information that the experts at the testing sites should know?

****SUre they may actually get it up and operational, ready to blow up any missile threatening Amercian soil at the expense of billions of Americans dollars, money that could be going to schools which are sub-par in the global economy****

If they're all dead it really doesn't matter

****But the thing with the Star Wars plan is that when we do get it operational, someone else will develop a technology that enables them to bypass the missile defense system, rendering a multi-billion dollar project obsolete****

And what country will that be? As of now we are the most technologically advanced nation. with the help from our allies we and our allies will be the only ones with it.....so what country will come up with this advance...short of selling them secrets ie: Klinton.

****And it will escalate the arms race to higher proportions.***

How?

****If the US does create a missile defense system, then we possess the opportunity to strike at any country without too much fear of retaliation. Will we do it? ***

No we have the power to protect ourself from a first strike. You should know better than to think we would strike out, nuclearwise, at a country that didn't strike out at us.

****Probably not, even with our politicans who get our country involved in to many wars for business-related reasons but our enemies might percieve it as such and any progress we have made at uniting the greater powers in the world might be made null. ****

I agree politically, however as for what the US's enemies think is irrelavent. This is a little reminder to our enemies of what we're capable of. Would you attack a person who had an incredible defense? Who wants to unite powers anyways? I don't. I find their way of life inferior to ours and other civilized country's.

****The greatest of presidents are remembered not for escalating the war but for detente***

Where did you get this from? I don't care about what makes a great president as long as I as an american am safe.

***So why should we encourage the rest of the world tofear us? Fear breeds paranoia and resentment, something already plaguing our country****

Since you're on a cliche' roll i''l give you one then....fear breeds respect. Counties only have to fear us if they are going to attack us. If they aren't going to attack us the will respect what we can do.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinejihead
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Re: 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty- se ya - Ha [Re: Innvertigo]
    #493046 - 12/16/01 06:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

all that foxnews is starting to rot your brain innvert...
think about this for one fucking minute logically. what happens if we erect a missle sheild? thats right, countries stop building ICBM's in favor of, thats right, small scale nuclear devices. suitcased sized a-bombs, capable of being delivered to any american city with the ease of a businessman flying with his laptop. and no, this isnt a pipe dream, the soviet union had a plethora of such devices and guess where a good deal ended up when they collapsed?? thats right, in the hands of the people we are bombing everyday. but you can ignore all of that if you want, its facts and logic and i know how you conservatives-a libertarian is a conservative too, learn your policial scales-like to ignore such things.

"****And it will escalate the arms race to higher proportions.***

um, freaking duh! if a country cant send enough missles to penetrate the sheild, they will only build more, causing more nations to build more to compete and so on and so forth, but that makes sense too. sorry.

"I agree politically, however as for what the US's enemies think is irrelavent"

i apologize for being so crass, but this is the most rediculously retarded statement i have ever heard. the reason we are at war and planes are flying into our buildings is because we ignore the protests and opinions of the rest of the world. if we would listen to the people we try to impose our will upon and had a little compassion, we wouldnt be in such a mess. o wait, facists dont like compassion.

"I don't care about what makes a great president as long as I as an american am safe."

who is going to attack the backwoods of kentucky anyway? i think its fucking ironic as shit that you have a pink flyod quote for your sig when you are content on being comfortably numb for you entire life.

"Since you're on a cliche' roll i''l give you one then....fear breeds respect. Counties only have to fear us if they are going to attack us. If they aren't going to attack us the will respect what we can do."

thats rediculous, fear breeds contempt. respect is NOT earned by attacking third world countries and raping citizens of their rights. if people feared or respected us, we wouldnt have planes hitting buildings and half of europe protesting our ignorance. go wave your flag somewhere else jingo.


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