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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Meditation
    #4816375 -

Is there any difference between meditation and vividly daydreaming?  If so, can someone explain this difference to me?  From what I can understand, the goal of meditation is to temporarily extinguish thought, or at least coherent thought.  Since this is so, I can't seem to understand why this is widely considered to be a state of enlightenment.  After you die, you will have an eternity completely devoid of thought, so why rush the process?  Doesn't it seem like we should savor our ability to think and comprehend the world around us?

Also, to those who meditate, what are the positive effects you have noticed and what does it accomplish?  How are those who turn off their minds by sinking deeply into a daydream (meditating as I understand it) any different than the legions of people who turn off their mind by crashing out in front of a television set?

It sounds like a whole lotta bollocks to me, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.  :shrug:

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4816388 -

well you are conciously turning off your mind...when you are aware but without thought...it refreshing feeling. and it sort of relaxes and re-energizes you...plus i here it helps with developing your intuition.

Edited by MJF (10/17/05 02:39 PM)

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4816449 -

Daydreaming is full of thought. When you 'space out' and daydream your conjouring up scenarios, thinking about the past or future and you can greatly affect your mood like this (sometimes in a bad way). Meditation is a state of awareness where your thoughts are free to flow through, but not affect you. It's more like your looking at them from a third person perspective.

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Re: Meditation [Re: MJF]
    #4816454 -

Is there any difference between meditation and vividly daydreaming?


yes, no mental images are required for meditation.

If so, can someone explain this difference to me? From what I can understand, the goal of meditation is to temporarily extinguish thought, or at least coherent thought. Since this is so, I can't seem to understand why this is widely considered to be a state of enlightenment. After you die, you will have an eternity completely devoid of thought, so why rush the process? Doesn't it seem like we should savor our ability to think and comprehend the world around us?

who says you cannot comprehend without a vebal mental dialogue? when you are not distracted by runaway thoughts your comphension improves.

Also, to those who meditate, what are the positive effects you have noticed and what does it accomplish? How are those who turn off their minds by sinking deeply into a daydream (meditating as I understand it) any different than the legions of people who turn off their mind by crashing out in front of a television set?

It sounds like a whole lotta bollocks to me, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

you are misunderstanding. meditation is about conscioussly diving into the Self while televsion, alcohol, heroin, etc are all ways of unconcioussly diving into the Self. in meditation your mind is alert and aware yet not preoccupied with excess thought trains. the benefits are increased focus, increased mental energy, increased peace and happiness, increased awareness of sense perceptions and increased understanding your self.

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Re: Meditation [Re: Deviate]
    #4816704 -

Deviate said:
yes, no mental images are required for meditation.


There must be some mental image, even if it is complete darkness.

Quote:
who says you cannot comprehend without a vebal mental dialogue? when you are not distracted by runaway thoughts your comphension improves.



Meditators don't claim to just get rid of runaway thoughts, the goal is to extinguish all thought (which I doubt is possible). This doesn't improve comprehension, it temporarily brings it to an end.

Quote:
you are misunderstanding. meditation is about conscioussly diving into the Self while televsion, alcohol, heroin, etc are all ways of unconcioussly diving into the Self. in meditation your mind is alert and aware yet not preoccupied with excess thought trains. the benefits are increased focus, increased mental energy, increased peace and happiness, increased awareness of sense perceptions and increased understanding your self.


I believe that when a person turns on the TV, opens up a bottle of alcohol, or shoots heroin, they are fairly certain of what the result is going to be, since it is the resulting sensation (numbness) that they are striving for.

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Re: Meditation [Re: MJF]
    #4816708 -

MJF said:
plus i here it helps with developing your intuition.


It seems real life experience would be much more effective at attaining this end.

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4816759 -

so are you saying that it is a waste of time?

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Re: Meditation [Re: MJF]
    #4816809 -

MJF said:
so are you saying that it is a waste of time?


Not necessarilly a waste, but I don't see how it is more profound than other forms of relaxation and/or contemplation.

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4816834 -

lol... im sorry. are you asking me how making your mind devoid of thought is different than day dreaming?

:smirk:

think about that for a second. day dreaming is filling your head with fantasy, imagination, in other words thought. so how is filling your head with thought different than emptying your head of thought?

:blush:

anyways... as for why we should meditate: many people find a temporary pause of the internal dialouge (worries , fears, expectations, concerns and stresses, and just nonsense) to be deeply refreshing. Plus meditation is an effective way to build discipline and weaken the hold of the ego on your life. It is also valuable for exploring what obsessions and fears and such are clogging yoru head.

Long answer short: meditation can be relaxing, refreshing, give a feeling of accomplishment, builds discipline, has been shown to be physically good for you (relaxation response) and can at some levels lead to experiences of ecstasy and joy, or leave you with a pervading feeling of calmness.

it can also be frusterating, difficult, painfull, scary etc.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4816926 -

itstarssaddam said:
MJF said:
so are you saying that it is a waste of time?


Not necessarilly a waste, but I don't see how it is more profound than other forms of relaxation and/or contemplation.


Do you have the perception that people think that meditation is more profound than other forms? I don't feel that way. Meditation is just different.

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Re: Meditation [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4816945 -

Moonshoe said:
anyways... as for why we should meditate: many people find a temporary pause of the internal dialouge (worries , fears, expectations, concerns and stresses, and just nonsense) to be deeply refreshing.


Yes, but perhaps these worries, fears, and concerns are there for a reason. Rather than struggling to block these emotions out, would it not be more effective to take direct action against their cause and resolve a problem rather than temporarily numbing it?

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4816952 -

sometimes their cause is the mind and resovling the problem is done through meditation

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4817004 -

There must be some mental image, even if it is complete darkness.

first of all i dont consider darkness an image, secondly its possible for the mind to be compeletly empty of mental images and instead full on the sense experience of the moment.

Meditators don't claim to just get rid of runaway thoughts, the goal is to extinguish all thought (which I doubt is possible). This doesn't improve comprehension, it temporarily brings it to an end.

why do you doubt its possible? i can assure you its possble because ive done it. if you need proof the mind can be without thought take any narcotic in suffiecient dose. also on what bases do you claim it ends comprehension? you just said you doubted it was possible therefore i can assume you haven't experienced it and have no idea what it does. when there are no thoughts what you have left is pure awareness, something much more powerful than thoughts. thoughts are "dead", kristmurti (or however you spell his name) has a very good explanation of this.





I believe that when a person turns on the TV, opens up a bottle of alcohol, or shoots heroin, they are fairly certain of what the result is going to be, since it is the resulting sensation (numbness) that they are striving for.

what point are you making?

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Re: Meditation [Re: Deviate]
    #4817025 -

Do you not have to think that you are no longer thinking? If not, what separates meditation from dreamless sleep?

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Re: Meditation [Re: Deviate]
    #4817037 -

yoga means yoke
or union
but yoke is important
whiththe yoke and whip the ox is driven to perform work that is valuable.

meditation is a kindof mental yoga
we can yoke the mind to drag the attention specifically along a path.
this does work.

since the mind is the epitomy of conditioned substance the work being done is conditioning or reconditioning.

the benefit of this can be appreciated years later in terms of freedom from unnecessary baggage, and the liberty to flow effortlessly as desired.

On the short term the benefit can be to stall out of a loop that is crippling or to sit calmly in the face of fear or emotional stress.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4817180 -

For me, meditation schools my awareness. Especially the awarenes of external and internal information-feed and the distiction between.
It has been some time since...sigh


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4817191 -

Do you not have to think that you are no longer thinking? If not, what separates meditation from dreamless sleep?

in sleep the might is sunk in obvlivian, in deep meditation the mind is basking in the light of consciousness.

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Re: Meditation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4817304 -

To extinguish thought is to achieve Samadhi.

You shouldn't take the words "extinguish thought" to the ultimate rational conclusion. A term better understood here is probably "ego-death", it means the same thing. In Samadhi, you have stopped all thought but continue to maintain universal awareness. It is impossible for one who has achieved this to really describe it because it is a state of being (been?) and not a part of dynamic reality to which our language is best suited. True death is called Maha Samadhi or, literally, the Great Samadhi.

Edited by Catalysis (10/17/05 07:21 PM)

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Re: Meditation [Re: Deviate]
    #4817330 -

1. it is always more affective to solve a problem by finding its internal root (psychological/emotional) rather than by changing your external situations. Depression is not rare among the rich, because without internal peace, external change is meaningless. Meditation is a way of achieving internal peace.

2. meditation and action are not mutually exclusive. Life is composed of internal and external aspects, therefore why not take internal and external actions? there is (or should be) a time to act and a time to meditate.  Also, when you act with a clear, calm mind (achievable through meditation) your actions will be far more efficacious.

3. "Do you not have to think that you are no longer thinking?"

no... no you dont. Not if thought is defined as internal verbal dialouge, imagery or imagining anyways. Clear mind or no mind is the abscence of verbal/linguistic thought or imagery. It is .... clarity. emptyness. void.
unless you experience it, dont think any amount of questions will explain that to you.

4. "what separates meditation from dreamless sleep?"

meditation is a process, an exercise, a journey, with many distinct stages and phases. it occurs when you are awake and it is conciously induced. it is elective, that is, you choose to do it. these are only some of the many differances between meditation and dreamless sleep.


im going to put this in the simplest terms:

A: peace, tranquility and contentment are desirable
B: meditation can be an effective way to achieve peace, tranquility and contentment.
C: therefore, meditation is worthwhile.

:grin:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Meditation [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4817394 -

many people go through life feeling like a part of themselves is empty. we try to fill this emptyness through various activities that bring pleasure and they help fill it for a little time but then it comes back and we go out looking for more pleasures. meditation instead tries to empty the mind rather than fill it up and ironically, when the mind becomes completely empty it is simultaneously completely full. there is no longer the feeling of incompleteness in the absense of pleasure.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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