GnuBobo said:

So, if you take a Judeo-Christian view of "god" or even a Buddhist or Hindu view of that Being, isn't the afterlife punishment a bit unfair?
And isn't that codified punishment in the next life antithetical and, thus, denying, any conception of a supremely benevolent godhead?

I got thinking on this tonight in terms of the monotheistic religious traditions, but it will carry over to other belief systems: Why would a being of love punish you for behavior in a sphere of existence that has no clear relation to the assumed following sphere of existence?

Especially a Supreme Being that gives us rational brains. Then said Supreme Being is near the worst incarnation of Descartes's idea of the malevolent cosmic joker.

Thoughts?

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OldWoodSpecter said:

god takes those who he prefers and puts them in his special place

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i don't think i want to go in god's special place... a bad man once touched me in my special place, and i gotta tell ya, you wouldn't want to go there either

MarkostheGnostic said:

It but a one-time Muslim at The Shroomery used to post on this.

It may be that the Unmitigated White Light of Ultimate Reality - The Face of GOD, so-to-speak, may be experienced as either Heaven or Hell depending upon the condition of the soul undergoing death. Those who encounter the Clear Light in Tibetan Buddhism, for example, cringe in terror and seek refuge in any material body rather than lose identity in That Reality, and thus are reborn - sometimes in a less-than-human form. In Christian theology (if one can forget the Dante-esque images of The Inferno), the Light of GOD may be equally agonizing, depending upon one's identity at the time of death. Those who have identified themselves with Christ-Light-Love will merge into GOD like slipping into a warm bath. Those who remain identified as a mind-body will perish because the mind-body perishes. Consciousness has not been transferred to what the Bible calls the "spiritual body."

Speculation of course, but it is not the flaw of a Compassionate GOD who instructs us in life how to achieve Eternal Life, and through our own egocentricity and ignorance fail to do what is necessary. The metaphors about 'the way' being 'narrow' reminds me of a park ranger in Yellowstone Park who tells you to stay on the path and on the bridge, and if you decide not to believe him and step into a super-heated mud pot, it is not his lack of compassion that causes me a second degree burn - it is my fault.

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Yeah...I respect your knowledge base, Markos. 

I still don't understand why an infinitely benevolent God would seperate its creation from itself and say, "Left, Right, Yellow, Blue, Green, YEAAAAAAAH, TWSITER!  AWWWWWWW TWISTER!"

That's sadistic and sounds like, yet another, elaborate, stilted explanation for why we poop and we kill and why we feel guilt. 

Dunno. 

I just don't undertand the clinging to fantastical systems which are far more elaborate than the plot of "The Matrix" trilogy. 

But, here we go...an overwhelming majority of humans believe in some sort of system for the deathlife. 

Gnostics and mystics only bother me in the sense that they translate their subjective experiences into a "communion" and slick over all of the politics and dogma.

That's fine, but, gnostics/mystics don't tell me why they trust their sensory experiences to inform their belief system.

I mean, I can fall in love with a meth-head trailer park girl and love her with all of my heart and be so pure in that love for her...then if I get out of that chemical saturation in my brain, I might step back and say, "Whoa!  That chick's not that attractive and fucking stupid to boot!"

 

I'd like to hear more on this topic, though.  I've dabbled in religion and philosophy, but never been an intense student of religion.  I got a bad taste in my mouth after reading my books for an "Enlightenment" course. 

Prof was totally cool, tho. 

Quote:

In Christian theology (if one can forget the Dante-esque images of The Inferno), the Light of GOD may be equally agonizing, depending upon one's identity at the time of death. Those who have identified themselves with Christ-Light-Love will merge into GOD like slipping into a warm bath. Those who remain identified as a mind-body will perish because the mind-body perishes. Consciousness has not been transferred to what the Bible calls the "spiritual body."

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I adore the way you worded that. Like slipping into a warm bath  Presto! Pleroma! The fullness of all! An eternity of a drenching, burning compassion - the more you try to love God, God Almighty loves you back 1000th fold. Born finally if you will. I trust in God to make my seconds or minutes of death to be met with gentle ease and comfort. After-all... existing without a physical body can be a bit 'new' to most of us

Unagipie said:

The state of gnostic/mystic/pneumatic is not one of beliefs, but Source-of-Moment experiences applied to moment-to-moment reality. It is to become like God for the sake of others, instead of attempting to charm God for one's one sake - which is the more fundamentalist-psychic approach to spirituality (or attempts to be spiritual). What comes from ecstatic mystical discorporation (gnosis) is an incorporation if 'knowledge in action' or compassion in action. The mystic becomes a faceless agent of the compassion of God, free from psychological archetypes and dogmas like Heaven/Hell and Reward/Punishment. And these are not a "set of beliefs" eithers. Carl Gustav Jung, who extensively explored metaphysics and the symbolism of archetypes was once asked whether he believed in God by a BBC reported. His subversive and timely response: "I don't need to believe, I know God exists." At a certain point in spiritual development, one realizes that salvation is a solitary persuit, not a guideline. Once one becomes pneumatic in their spiritual intuition, attempting to fathom existence without the divine reality is impossible. The relationship between God and psychological-typical 'believers' is blind and unshelled. The relationship between God and an unbeliever in post-mortem provision is simply non-existent. Some may believe in the divine, some may not - but the mystic is "emptied flesh-ego made divine-ego" so to speak. The mystic is the only middle-ground between the divine and the flesh.

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Unagipie said:

The state of gnostic/mystic/pneumatic is not one of beliefs, but Source-of-Moment experiences applied to moment-to-moment reality. It is to become like God for the sake of others, instead of attempting to charm God for one's one sake - which is the more fundamentalist-psychic approach to spirituality (or attempts to be spiritual). What comes from ecstatic mystical discorporation (gnosis) is an incorporation if 'knowledge in action' or compassion in action. The mystic becomes a faceless agent of the compassion of God, free from psychological archetypes and dogmas like Heaven/Hell and Reward/Punishment. And these are not a "set of beliefs" eithers. Carl Gustav Jung, who extensively explored metaphysics and the symbolism of archetypes was once asked whether he believed in God by a BBC reported. His subversive and timely response: "I don't need to believe, I know God exists." At a certain point in spiritual development, one realizes that salvation is a solitary persuit, not a guideline. Once one becomes pneumatic in their spiritual intuition, attempting to fathom existence without the divine reality is impossible. The relationship between God and psychological-typical 'believers' is blind and unshelled. The relationship between God and an unbeliever in post-mortem provision is simply non-existent. Some may believe in the divine, some may not - but the mystic is "emptied flesh-ego made divine-ego" so to speak. The mystic is the only middle-ground between the divine and the flesh.

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This just sounds like consuming self-delusion and egotism.

Suddenly people that babble about fantastical beings and being the conduit of knowledge and love from that being are labeled, "mystic"?  Forget dogma...it still sounds crazy.

Unagipie said:

There are essentially two egos - or conscious identities. The ego that comes from physical matter, and the divine ego/ground of being.

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Quote:

The physical ego becomes destroyed at physical, and unless one has learned to abandon the ego of the flesh, their consciousness and existence as they know it will die along with physical. It is the living tragedy in the eyes of God. Jesus said in Gospel of Thomas, "I mourn for every soul that does not come into the light.". It is not about condemnation, but rather death - the death of consciousness that comes with failing to identify with the eternal self. In the sense that Christ "mourns", while the Divine Reality is aware (the awareness of God can be translated as the love of God) of the lives of such people who are unaware of eternity, the Divine Reality does not live through them. The goal of the pneumatic is simply to abandon the ego that stems from physical matter to replace it with the living, divine ego. You have mentioned 'egotism'. Egotism is an inflation of the physical self, external identity, etc. I have heard it called the 'the refuting ego', that is, an egotist is constantly trying to refute the egos of others. It is the opposite condition of those of the inner tradition, whether gnostics, kabbalists, sufis, and mystics.

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Quote:

The human condition is not a random one. It is one in stages. Many pass through these stages intuitively, others unfortunately become stuck in certain stages in the development of consciousness, intently. Fundamentalist religiousity has no more interest in penetrating the divine mystery than materialist who equate their physical existence as a human being to that of an ant. Those with an honest humility can achieve a conscious relationship with God, the divine the reality. Beyond that, those with a sincere desire to understand the immense mystery that is Eternal Love/Compassion will find themselves in the grips of privileged knowledge. This knowledge has nothing to do with ego games or refutation, but rather it is the pearl that the seeker of truth is looking for - for his own sake, for his own understanding of his solitary salvation. It has nothing to do with 'drawing straws' with others, a domain reserved for the fundamentalist-literalist mind set that masquerades spiritual elitism as righteousness. It is comparable to siblings trying to win the love of their parents over one another. A mystic does not claim that he is saved while others are not. He only affirms his own salvation.

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Unagipie said:

I will simply leave it at that. I have nothing to prove, but in the spirit of discussion I will relate how I have came to understand reality. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. I didn't even make this thread, I'm simply replying. A preclusion such as "don't fuck with the empirical" kind of escapes the purpose of discussion in SM&P in the first place.

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MarkostheGnostic said:

Wow! Looks like something I mighta written!

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I guess this is the wrong forum for me, then. 
I like talking about this sort of thing, but I don't listen too well to schizophrenics, either. 

And that's not an insult--that's an analogy to a subjective experience.

I don't like the flower that blooms from the root thinking of the proclaimed "gnostic" experience.  So I offer a rationale to cut the roots out before mid-summer.

But, this isn't my forum and I'll only get into trouble here.  Trust me, I know. 

Gnosticism just sounds like a euphemism for egotism or "The knowing silent nod." 

That's cool if you get by with this approach. 

I guess I've spoken enough with Ziddy outside of this forum to doubt, in a profound way, his ideas about gnostics.  But I haven't spoken much with Markos, so, I'll leave it at that. 



Take it easy.  Ythan allowed me access to this forum, so I can't get too honest or I'll get some nasty retribution.    He was nice that way and I don't want to go back on our understanding.