Home | Community | Message Board

Sporeworks
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlinexbloodwhipx

Registered: 02/24/12
Posts: 12,791
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
What do you christians think of this video
    #18842600 - 09/14/13 09:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Im just trying to get opinions. Being a christian myself... This makes me not want to be one anymore



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSpiritualWarrior
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 437
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18843286 - 09/15/13 03:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know man, I certainly wouldn't want to believe that God is evil that would be psychologically unbearable. I think the Old Testament has all these strange things in it that are bad, but it depends on the interpretation of them. Like for instance that story in Kings about those bears killing those 42 children. That likely never even happened, it may have just been a spiritual/allegory used by the Prophets to explain something. Numerology may also be involved when it says "42" children. Really, the Old Testament is not a literal book to be taken literally, some of it is some of it isn't.

Even if there were brutal things done back then that God ordered, you got to think that maybe it was because the people back then were so brutal that it was the only way God could get to them. Like, God was only being as brutal as the people were at the times so its more the peoples fault than anything... But I prefer not to take the Old Testament so literally and leave it open to speculation. That is why the New Testament exists is to interpret the Old, the Old Testament really is a mysterious collection of texts.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #18843892 - 09/15/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

As any woman (women are amongst the main victims of this sick mindset) who knows what what will tell you, the Bible is patriarchal, and the patriarchy is exactly like what is being exposed. Utterly hypocritical, and sadistic. We are seeing exactly that in the world today, right now. They are insane----they are connected with this abusive book. Totally connected to it.

Look at their creation myth. It is really about stopping people having access to psychedelic fruit--hence they are told off for eating the fruit of knowledge, and barred from the Tree of Life. This Tree is symbolically meaning psychedelic vegetation. So straight away that tyrant 'God' is stopping our ancestors being able to freely explore their consciousness, body, and the natural world. And what do you see to this day..............?

the so-called WAR ON DRUGS and of course included is war on psychedelics. War against us exploring consciousness, and understanding that nature is alive and sacred! So my point is is that that sick mindset carries on even from those ancient times, and it does so via pushing you toxic myths. 9/11 was/is a toxic myth, etc. They create FEAR, GUILT, SHAME, and this is supposed to divide and control and have you clining to their author-itry (their CONTROL OF THE NARRATIVE). And look at how people will defend this tyrant 'God', and also this tyrant 'State'. they become blind to their own victimhood and abuse and end up abusing themselves and others.


Edited by zzripz (09/17/13 02:22 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFishOilTheKid
Ascended
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: zzripz]
    #18844196 - 09/15/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSpiritualWarrior
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 437
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: zzripz]
    #18845889 - 09/15/13 07:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
As any woman (women are amongst the main victims of this sick mindset) who knows what what will tell you, the Bible is patriarchal, and the patriarchy is exactly like what is being exposed. Utterly hypocritical, and sadistic. We are seeing exactly that in the world today, right now. They are insane----they are connected with this abusive book. Totally connected to it.

Look at their creation myth. It is really about stopping people having access to psychedelic fruit--hence they are told off for eating the fruit of knowledge, and barred from the Tree of Life. This Tree is symbolically meaning psychedelic vegetation. So straight away that tyrant 'God' is stopping our ancestors being able to freely explore their consciousness, body, and the natural world. And what do you see to this day..............?

the so-called WAR ON DRUGS and of course included is war on psychedelics. War against us exploring consciousness, and understanding that nature is alive and sacred! So my point is is that that sick mindset carries on even from those ancient times, and it does so via pushing you toxic myths. (/11 was/is a toxic myth, etc. They create FEAR, GUILT, SHAME, and this is supposed to divide and control and have you clining to their author-itry (their CONTROL OF THE NARRATIVE). And look at how people will defend this tyrant 'God', and also this tyrant 'State'. they become blind to their own victimhood and abuse and end up abusing themselves and others.




Do you see how people have made an idol out of the text of the Bible and misinterpreted it over the years? Its not that the book is evil its that the people abuse the text that's already there by misinterpreting it.

You're misinterpreting what the Knowledge of Good and Evil is. What that is...is us thinking ourselves to be God instead of God to be God. We think we're God everytime we take something from this world, whether it be a drug or a bad idea and start to believe that this thing came from itself and that God did not make it. That is why they had to stretch for the hand and eat the fruit of the tree, they misused the creation of God. First they thought about it what the fruit would be used for, with the Wisdom of the Serpent that is, then the act came. The Wisdom of the Serpent is Wisdom which is self seeking and crawls along the ground like a snake.

So in reality the story is about misuse of God's creation and coveting God's creation, believing that is belongs to us and not thanking God for it and ascribing it to God. We put ourselves in God's place when we do that.


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/15/13 07:11 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: zzripz]
    #18848043 - 09/16/13 08:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The video is all wrong. God is good. Not just a little bit good but supremely good. The error is on the part of man and this error is basically loving created things more than their creator. this self love causes people to view life from a wrong perspective. They view things from the standpoint of their body instead of the standpoint of the immortal soul. Lacking the right perspective, they make all kinds of ignorant choices that lead to suffering and then blame God and think God isnt good. Only when people cease holding imperfect images in their minds will the earth begin to become the paradise God envisioned for it.

We create reality our reality. Heres an example. Lets say you have a scientist doing research on monkeys trying to cure a disease. He takes it all very seriously. TO him he is doing very important work, trying to study and cure a disease and the potential human lives it could save justifies the suffering of the poor innocent monkeys. But what woudl an enlightened being do? to an enlightened being is it necessary to do experiments on monkeys in a lab? an enlightened being views the whole situation differently. The enlightened being would simply look within to God for the answer. If he wanted to rid himself of the disease, he would know that prayer was a more effective means than scientific study.

Here is the paradox though. lets say you tried to explain this to the scientist. He would scoff at you. He would sya show me evidence prayer works. Of course from the point of view of the scientist prayer doesnt work. It doesnt work because humans are in a low state of consciousness in which they have limited control over their creative powers and dont understand that they have the power to cure sickness with prayer. Because of their lack of understanding and lack of belief, prayer doesnt work. So the scientist studies will come back showing prayer doesnt work and he will say "aha, you see. prayer doesnt work. Now get out of my way while i do my actual evidence based research that actually brings things into the world that work".

You see, if humans adopt the belief that scientific research is the only sensible way to accomplish anything, then the universe is simply going to reflect that belief, and humans will become more and more entrenched in that viewpoint. Most atheists dont even realize that their views are based on faith, faith in the human intellect and its ability to discern the truth. Its no different from believing in God. You cant prove that the intellectual method yields the truth using the intellect any more than you can prove that the Bible is true with the Bible. If the spiritual worldview is correct, which essentially states humans are caught in the illusion of maya or fallen from grace, or something then it only makes sense.

whenever you see atheists aruging against religion, they are always making intellectual arguments and talking about logic and evidence. what is the underlying assumption here? That the other person must share their viewpoint. the other person must have faith that the human intellect is the ultimate judge of truth and falsehood (things like the scientific method are just functions of the intellect, the scientific method cannot be used by a rock to learn about the world, it requires an intellect) and that if there is a god, he must make sense to the intellect and be explainable in such a way that it satisfies their intellect.

What atheists dont seem to realize is that those are pure assumptions. There is no reason those thigns have to be true. another culture could develop where prayer, meditation and spiritual communion are what it puts in faith in. for such a society, it is quite possible that prayer would work just as science "works" for us (gaining credibility by helping us build machines and computers and crap we dont relaly need).

Atheists will say ok that might be true but there is no evidence for it, so i have no reason to believe it. Again, this just shows their complete and total faith in the intellect, as the intellect is what demands evidence to function. other faculties of the soul do not need evidence to operate, the soul learns to nagivate based on feeling, sensation and emotion. its a whole way of thinking/being that atheists are unfamiliar with and they have closed off the possibility of it existing because of their faith and devotion to the intellect. the irony is that they are behaving so much like the religious people they abhor. the religious put their faith in God and latch onto to all experiences which comfirm their belief in God and that faith and prayer are our greatest tools, atheists put their faith in intellect and latch onto all experiences which seem to confirm to them that that logic and reasoning are our greatest tools.

How can these two sides ever be reconciled? certainly not through an intellectual debate. expecting a religious personn to be able to prove or explain religion to you in a way that satisfies your intellect is like a religious person expecting an atheist to be convinced God exists by getting on his knees and praying. why do atheists never queston the assumption that religion should be explainable or should sound logical to them? Basically each side in this debate has completely different assumptions and neither side can in any way prove their assumptions.


Quote:

zzripz said:
As any woman (women are amongst the main victims of this sick mindset) who knows what what will tell you, the Bible is patriarchal, and the patriarchy is exactly like what is being exposed. Utterly hypocritical, and sadistic. We are seeing exactly that in the world today, right now. They are insane----they are connected with this abusive book. Totally connected to it.

Look at their creation myth. It is really about stopping people having access to psychedelic fruit--hence they are told off for eating the fruit of knowledge, and barred from the Tree of Life. This Tree is symbolically meaning psychedelic vegetation. So straight away that tyrant 'God' is stopping our ancestors being able to freely explore their consciousness, body, and the natural world. And what do you see to this day..............?

the so-called WAR ON DRUGS and of course included is war on psychedelics. War against us exploring consciousness, and understanding that nature is alive and sacred! So my point is is that that sick mindset carries on even from those ancient times, and it does so via pushing you toxic myths. (/11 was/is a toxic myth, etc. They create FEAR, GUILT, SHAME, and this is supposed to divide and control and have you clining to their author-itry (their CONTROL OF THE NARRATIVE). And look at how people will defend this tyrant 'God', and also this tyrant 'State'. they become blind to their own victimhood and abuse and end up abusing themselves and others.




Whoa dude, I see a lot of completely unsupported assertions in your post. If you are going to make claims completely contrary to the way the Christian faith has been practiced and understood for the past 2,000 years, you'd better provide some solid evidence.

Psychedelics are fun toys which allow one to play around with spiritual states of consciousness, they are not nearly important enough to be the focus of the geneses myth about the true knowledge and the tree of life.

The knowledge of good and evil is the mindset mankind has adopted in which he has set himself up as the judge over what should or should not happen, rather than letting God be the judge. Before eating this fateful fruit, man was in a state of grace. His heart was joyful and at peace in the Lord and so nothing that befell him on earth troubled him because he trusted in the Lord. If something seemed painful or bad, rather than judging it or trying to resist it, he just accepted it because he knew that there must be some greater purpose or reason for it, or the good Lord would not have sent it upon him.

After eating from the tree and falling from grace, man lost his special connection with the Lord. He became his own master but lacking wisdom, he was like a sheep without a shepard. He gained the knowledge of good and bad from the standpoint of his body, but lost the knowledge of what was truly best for his soul. This is what has happened to us, we have become identified with our bodies to the point where we seek to gratify the desires of the flesh (the good) and avoid pain and injury (bad) instead of seeking only to do the will of the Lord.

Psychedelics and nature worship can raise ones consciousness and put them in touch the divine. However, it cannot take them all the way to the goal, which is union with God. That was the great insight of Judaism and the reason for the condemnation of paganism. Its not the paragnism wasnt real spirituality, on the contrary, through nature worhsip you can become much more spiritual than the materiaslitc people our society generates. However, you will never get all the way to the goal, you will never attain union with the most high, through such means. You speak of the sacredness of nature. Nature is indeed quite sacred, but only because the good Lord made it so. Thats the insight of Judaism and its daughter religion, Christianity. The fact the Lord is the source of all that is good and we need only to look to Him and only by looking to Him can our souls ever find true rest. What does an entheogen do anyway? the word itself means to make God appear within. THats what they do, they fill you with a portion of the Holy spirit for the duration of the trip and it shows you things. But its just temporary. You see, psychedelics and nature worship can only take us so far. In fact, humans are more spiritually evolved than plants and animals and nature spirits. The nature spirits might seem quite spiritual to you, because they dont suffer from the delusions and afflictions of modern society, they are much more pure. However, nature spirits lack the development of self awareness and self consciousness that is possessed by humans. Hence from the standpoint of the evolution of consciousness, human beings are the most evolved species on the planet and you would do well to pay attention to the sacred writings of human beings. That doesnt mean you cant have a great love for nature, i have found that as my love for the Lord grows, so does my enjoyment of the natural world, for it is God's creation. The more you love your creator, the more you will love creation.

Just be careful not to love creation more than the creator. That tendency is original sin.
\


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: Deviate]
    #18848563 - 09/16/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Basically each side in this debate has completely different assumptions and neither side can in any way prove their assumptions.





What do you mean? The point of experiments, models, and studies is to test assumptions against reality, where as you seem to be making up assumptions on the spot (such as healing prayer works only through belief, and the problem it hasn't worked is because not enough people believe), base it off of absolutely nothing besides maybe a gut feeling you have, and then believe it out right. I look at that assumption, and see no reason to believe in it. There seems to be a large negative coloration between high religious populations and public health. India, Africa and South America all have major health problems such as AIDs, and they have very high religious observation. Not to say that religion causes disease, but the most likely explanation is that poverty is a positive casual factor for disease, and statistics show poor people are more likely to be religious.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: White Beard] * 1
    #18849044 - 09/16/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I addressed that in my post. You're assuming that experiments, models and tests give us objective information about reality. How can you prove that? I understand that it seems to be the case but just because something seems a certain way does mean its true. Im not saying that we should assume it isnt true. Sometimes you have to go with the way things seem even if you have no proof. But that doesnt mean you should convince yourself there is proof when there is none.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: Deviate]
    #18849147 - 09/16/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Most atheists dont even realize that their views are based on faith, faith in the human intellect and its ability to discern the truth.




And yet the views of the theists you describe are based on faith in the human intellect's ability to discern at least ONE kind of truth (specifically, the truth that the human intellect may be fallible).  Both atheists and theists alike trust various conclusions that their minds have come up with, there's no getting around it.  Instead, the difference between most atheists and theists that I've found is that they start out with other different assumptions, namely (in the theist's case) that gut feeling, emotions, and/or stubbornness trumps empirical observation and scientific evidence when judging the validity of a belief.  The atheist feels that this is incorrect, and that empirical observation trumps mere feeling.  I tend to side with the atheist here.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: xbloodwhipx] * 1
    #18849349 - 09/16/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I lost my response yesterday, but these aspects of the way that Deity was represented in the Tenach, is saying a whole lot more about the mentality of the Hebrew people, and their prophets in particular, than about the nature of Deity. The descriptions of the father attributed to Iesous in the New Testament are automatically assumed to be a continuation of the God of the Jews, but given the quotations in this video, there is little in common with the benevolent parent that the NT describes. This is the crux of Harold Bloom's book, Jesus and Yahweh: The Names Divine.



This theme about the immorality of God is also what prompted all those Jews and Christians who withdrew from the orthodoxy of their religions, to call themselves Gnostics in various ways. Almost without exception, Gnostics understood God the Creator as an intermediary power, not the True God, or God-Above-God. The Creator was often called the Demiurge, which means craftsman, and many myths developed to explain just how and why this Demiurge created humankind, imbued them with Spirit, but basically trapped our Spirit in matter. In order for us to be freed from this Demiurge's entrapment, a divine teacher, usually Iesous, descends from our true home in the Pleroma [Fullness], and teaches us how to extricate ourselves, our essential nature, from it's identification with matter. It is Knowledge of a mystical order, called Gnosis in Greek, that results in our salvation, not some bestowal of grace by the metaphorical hand or nod of a capricious Deity.

A post-modern version of a Gnostic myth is The Matrix trilogy. When Neo (which means both new, and is an anagram for [the] One) flies a hovercraft above the polluted atmosphere, and sees the Sun in a blue sky, it parallels the Pleroma - the Ultimately Real. The Architect character is The Demiurge who creates the machine world (William Blake depicted a Gnostic Demiurge called Old Nobodaddy as an architect with a compass). In classic Gnosticism, the Archons are sinister powers that try to prevent the spiritual awakening and ascension of human beings to their true home in the Pleroma. These Archons are depicted as Agents in The Matrix trilogy. Neo is the savior, who learns from the Oracle (the Gnostic version is Sophia, Wisdom), Temet Nosces, as the sign in her kitchen reads in Latin - Know Thyself. This is the Gnosis. When truly understood, Neo IS freedom. That gives Neo his ability to defeat the Agents/Archons, and for the Architect to come into balance with the Oracle. In some Gnostic myths, Sophia goes off and creates the Demiurge, which in turn creates the universe and humankind.



The bottom line in The Matrix trilogy is that the Architect/demiurge is an evil creator. But humankind has been completely enslaved, and all that remains is its essential Spirit of freedom and free will which continues to eludes his grasp, particularly as manifested by Neo. So he keeps reproducing The Matrix as he had already done 16 times, as he tells Neo. The Architect continues to imprison humans in electronic simulacra. Even the survivors in Zion are "another level of control," who wrongly believe they have escaped bondage as human batteries. If Zion has been destroyed 16 times, they are all electronic reproductions. So this notion of an evil Creator, and our escape from its control is an essentially Gnostic theme. It also has its parallel in our psychological evolution from the bondage of the unconscious, to become conscious beings. We move from determinism to existential freedom to the extent that we escape our identification with instinctual, psychosexual, and psychosocial 'obligations.' In Gnosticism, it's all about Awakening.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: Deviate]
    #18849972 - 09/16/13 04:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I addressed that in my post. You're assuming that experiments, models and tests give us objective information about reality. How can you prove that? I understand that it seems to be the case but just because something seems a certain way does mean its true. Im not saying that we should assume it isnt true. Sometimes you have to go with the way things seem even if you have no proof. But that doesnt mean you should convince yourself there is proof when there is none.




True, everything I'm experience could be a dream for all I know, but on a pragmatic level, I trust the scientific method in dealing with reality. I choose not to smoke tobacco, for example, because there have been numerous controlled studies have shown again and again that tobacco consumption has a positive correlation with cancer and heart diseases.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSpiritualWarrior
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 437
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18850112 - 09/16/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I lost my response yesterday, but these aspects of the way that Deity was represented in the Tenach, is saying a whole lot more about the mentality of the Hebrew people, and their prophets in particular, than about the nature of Deity. The descriptions of the father attributed to Iesous in the New Testament are automatically assumed to be a continuation of the God of the Jews, but given the quotations in this video, there is little in common with the benevolent parent that the NT describes. This is the crux of Harold Bloom's book, Jesus and Yahweh: The Names Divine.



This theme about the immorality of God is also what prompted all those Jews and Christians who withdrew from the orthodoxy of their religions, to call themselves Gnostics in various ways. Almost without exception, Gnostics understood God the Creator as an intermediary power, not the True God, or God-Above-God. The Creator was often called the Demiurge, which means craftsman, and many myths developed to explain just how and why this Demiurge created humankind, imbued them with Spirit, but basically trapped our Spirit in matter. In order for us to be freed from this Demiurge's entrapment, a divine teacher, usually Iesous, descends from our true home in the Pleroma [Fullness], and teaches us how to extricate ourselves, our essential nature, from it's identification with matter. It is Knowledge of a mystical order, called Gnosis in Greek, that results in our salvation, not some bestowal of grace by the metaphorical hand or nod of a capricious Deity.

A post-modern version of a Gnostic myth is The Matrix trilogy. When Neo (which means both new, and is an anagram for [the] One) flies a hovercraft above the polluted atmosphere, and sees the Sun in a blue sky, it parallels the Pleroma - the Ultimately Real. The Architect character is The Demiurge who creates the machine world (William Blake depicted a Gnostic Demiurge called Old Nobodaddy as an architect with a compass). In classic Gnosticism, the Archons are sinister powers that try to prevent the spiritual awakening and ascension of human beings to their true home in the Pleroma. These Archons are depicted as Agents in The Matrix trilogy. Neo is the savior, who learns from the Oracle (the Gnostic version is Sophia, Wisdom), Temet Nosces, as the sign in her kitchen reads in Latin - Know Thyself. This is the Gnosis. When truly understood, Neo IS freedom. That gives Neo his ability to defeat the Agents/Archons, and for the Architect to come into balance with the Oracle. In some Gnostic myths, Sophia goes off and creates the Demiurge, which in turn creates the universe and humankind.



The bottom line in The Matrix trilogy is that the Architect/demiurge is an evil creator. But humankind has been completely enslaved, and all that remains is its essential Spirit of freedom and free will which continues to eludes his grasp, particularly as manifested by Neo. So he keeps reproducing The Matrix as he had already done 16 times, as he tells Neo. The Architect continues to imprison humans in electronic simulacra. Even the survivors in Zion are "another level of control," who wrongly believe they have escaped bondage as human batteries. If Zion has been destroyed 16 times, they are all electronic reproductions. So this notion of an evil Creator, and our escape from its control is an essentially Gnostic theme. It also has its parallel in our psychological evolution from the bondage of the unconscious, to become conscious beings. We move from determinism to existential freedom to the extent that we escape our identification with instinctual, psychosexual, and psychosocial 'obligations.' In Gnosticism, it's all about Awakening.







That's all way too complicated. The Christian Message of Christ is about simplifying things. It doesn't use the rational brain to live spiritually. Gnosticism claims wisdom and knowledge but does not have the true wisdom or knowledge of Christ. It calls for a human man-made form of wisdom that is of this earth and is really just philosophical thought. There is no general proof of any of it much like the theory of evolution. Its all in the head. You can think about what it is but what is it in practice? Is there any kind of special prayers that gnostics say? Or is there no prayer at all and is it just like another kind of buddhism where they meditate? Problem with gnosticism is it has no structure, there is no "ground and pillar" which it rests supported on like the church is. Its all theory and no practice. All scattered and not united. It does not produce true faith, only philosophy and empty words.


"Beware lest anyone captures you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"


Collosians 2:8-9 


Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 04:52 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: deCypher]
    #18850209 - 09/16/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Most atheists dont even realize that their views are based on faith, faith in the human intellect and its ability to discern the truth.




And yet the views of the theists you describe are based on faith in the human intellect's ability to discern at least ONE kind of truth (specifically, the truth that the human intellect may be fallible).



i dont see what you mean there. even atheists admit the intellect can be fallible. but theists like myself are not claiming the intellect cannot discern truth, only that its abilities are limited by the information available to it. the intellect works very well when it has all the information it needs to make a logical decision. but the more unknowns you have and the more that the so called knowns youre working with actually rest on assumptions, the weaker and weaker the intellects conclusions become.

Quote:


  Both atheists and theists alike trust various conclusions that their minds have come up with, there's no getting around it.  Instead, the difference between most atheists and theists that I've found is that they start out with other different assumptions, namely (in the theist's case) that gut feeling, emotions, and/or stubbornness trumps empirical observation and scientific evidence when judging the validity of a belief.  The atheist feels that this is incorrect, and that empirical observation trumps mere feeling.  I tend to side with the atheist here.




That's basically what I said, so I am not sure whether you were agreeing with me and just siding with the atheist's approach or whether you felt like you were saying something different. But yes, as Ive said the atheist maintains that we ought only to put a stake in ideas which can be supported through an intellectual process of evidence gathering. The theist on the other hand, claims that things can be known intuitively through the faculties of the soul or knowledge can be given to us by God through revelation.

The thing is, when the atheist presents arguments for his position, he is pre-assuming the authority of the intellect. If I dont buy into his assumption that the intellect is the highest authority, his arguments are going to fall flat on my ears just like if he doesn't buy into God's existence, quoting him the Bible is going to fall flat most of the time.

The other point I wanted to make was how reality will often appear to confirm whatever viewpoint we take toward it. Take a dream for example. In a dream you virtually always have far greater power to manipulate your experience than you understand or realize. If you were in chigaco in a dream but wanted to be in new york, rather than have to take a plane to new york, you could probably just think yourself there. Now im not saying you can necessarily do that in your waking state, but i am saying what if we have far greater power to manipulate our waking experience than we realize? just like how in the dream, someone who does not realize they can think themself to new york, will end up taking a plane or bus, absolutely sure it is the only way, scientists will spend lifetimes doing "empirical" experiments, absolutely certain it is the only way to learn about reality.

but if there is a higher mind aspect to reality, and what see on the physical level is a manifestation of what is being held on the level of the higher mind, then the fundamental assumptions held by most people might be completely wrong. just like how in the dream, you could have thought yourself to new york but since you didnt know that, it seemed like you had to take the bus and reality seemed to confirm this fact, as you did not get to new york until you boarded the bus, similarly in waking life, if you believe that the only way to accomplish anything is throught he collecting of empirical data and analyzing it with the human intellect, then physical reality will outpicture that belief and collecting empirical data will become the only way to accurately know anyrthing. I believe that is why so many people are so absolutely certain their beliefs are correct, even though when it really comes down to it, they are based on nothing more than assumptions.

anyway, i dont side with the atheist because in my experience, i have discovered that there are other ways of using energy to change my experience of and understanding of life than throught he use of my intellect alone. i would say that my consciousness is kind of like a flashlight or spotlight and by shining it on things, i can sometimes get an idea about how they work. i dont necessarily think we even need to be particularly unscientific or adopt magical thinking, i jsut think that most scientist types tend to look outside themselves for truth. They see everything through the lens of their intellect which has built up a large complicated conceptual system of evaluating all the information their senses bring in and judging and categorizing it according to past experiences.

But what if God is the source of our consciousness itself? what if looking inward and observing our own mind clearly (and this is where i think a scientific mindset is a useful one for observation of oneself) can bring us untold insights into what life is and how we can make it more satisfying for ourselves? What if we find that endless scientific investigation of the sensory data we encounter is not as important as we had thought? These seem to be ideas which I have found do not appeal to most atheists. they seem to have a disdain for anything that could be considered spiritual, preferring to operate in the realm of the intellect, which is what they are used to and where they feel comfortable. They are resistant to learn to develop new ways of gathering information, perhaps fearing that if they put their faith in what they consider "gut feeling" they will be wrong and be embarrassed in front of other atheists. I dont know, whatever the reason, atheists dont like to consider the idea that all their beliefs and well reasoned logical arguments all rest on the flimsy assumption that intellect is the height of human achievement and there is no such thing as spiritual enlightenment, which gives us a different kind of knowledge.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18850230 - 09/16/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
There is no general proof of any of it much like the theory of evolution.





There is actually quite a lot of evidence for the theory of evolution.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18850365 - 09/16/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpiritualWarrior said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I lost my response yesterday, but these aspects of the way that Deity was represented in the Tenach, is saying a whole lot more about the mentality of the Hebrew people, and their prophets in particular, than about the nature of Deity. The descriptions of the father attributed to Iesous in the New Testament are automatically assumed to be a continuation of the God of the Jews, but given the quotations in this video, there is little in common with the benevolent parent that the NT describes. This is the crux of Harold Bloom's book, Jesus and Yahweh: The Names Divine.



This theme about the immorality of God is also what prompted all those Jews and Christians who withdrew from the orthodoxy of their religions, to call themselves Gnostics in various ways. Almost without exception, Gnostics understood God the Creator as an intermediary power, not the True God, or God-Above-God. The Creator was often called the Demiurge, which means craftsman, and many myths developed to explain just how and why this Demiurge created humankind, imbued them with Spirit, but basically trapped our Spirit in matter. In order for us to be freed from this Demiurge's entrapment, a divine teacher, usually Iesous, descends from our true home in the Pleroma [Fullness], and teaches us how to extricate ourselves, our essential nature, from it's identification with matter. It is Knowledge of a mystical order, called Gnosis in Greek, that results in our salvation, not some bestowal of grace by the metaphorical hand or nod of a capricious Deity.

A post-modern version of a Gnostic myth is The Matrix trilogy. When Neo (which means both new, and is an anagram for [the] One) flies a hovercraft above the polluted atmosphere, and sees the Sun in a blue sky, it parallels the Pleroma - the Ultimately Real. The Architect character is The Demiurge who creates the machine world (William Blake depicted a Gnostic Demiurge called Old Nobodaddy as an architect with a compass). In classic Gnosticism, the Archons are sinister powers that try to prevent the spiritual awakening and ascension of human beings to their true home in the Pleroma. These Archons are depicted as Agents in The Matrix trilogy. Neo is the savior, who learns from the Oracle (the Gnostic version is Sophia, Wisdom), Temet Nosces, as the sign in her kitchen reads in Latin - Know Thyself. This is the Gnosis. When truly understood, Neo IS freedom. That gives Neo his ability to defeat the Agents/Archons, and for the Architect to come into balance with the Oracle. In some Gnostic myths, Sophia goes off and creates the Demiurge, which in turn creates the universe and humankind.



The bottom line in The Matrix trilogy is that the Architect/demiurge is an evil creator. But humankind has been completely enslaved, and all that remains is its essential Spirit of freedom and free will which continues to eludes his grasp, particularly as manifested by Neo. So he keeps reproducing The Matrix as he had already done 16 times, as he tells Neo. The Architect continues to imprison humans in electronic simulacra. Even the survivors in Zion are "another level of control," who wrongly believe they have escaped bondage as human batteries. If Zion has been destroyed 16 times, they are all electronic reproductions. So this notion of an evil Creator, and our escape from its control is an essentially Gnostic theme. It also has its parallel in our psychological evolution from the bondage of the unconscious, to become conscious beings. We move from determinism to existential freedom to the extent that we escape our identification with instinctual, psychosexual, and psychosocial 'obligations.' In Gnosticism, it's all about Awakening.







That's all way too complicated. The Christian Message of Christ is about simplifying things. It doesn't use the rational brain to live spiritually. Gnosticism claims wisdom and knowledge but does not have the true wisdom or knowledge of Christ. It calls for a human man-made form of wisdom that is of this earth and is really just philosophical thought. There is no general proof of any of it much like the theory of evolution. Its all in the head. You can think about what it is but what is it in practice? Is there any kind of special prayers that gnostics say? Or is there no prayer at all and is it just like another kind of buddhism where they meditate? Problem with gnosticism is it has no structure, there is no "ground and pillar" which it rests supported on like the church is. Its all theory and no practice. All scattered and not united. It does not produce true faith, only philosophy and empty words.


"Beware lest anyone captures you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"


Collosians 2:8-9 






Yes, thank you. I am beginning to think markosthegnostic has lost his way and fallen into an almost entirely heretical belief system. Seems like in every post he is taking the view that the orthodox church has got it all wrong and that we need to take another look at the scriptures and completely revise our understanding of them into some kind of eastern philosophy of awakening.

in my experience, this is completely false. In fact, this viewpoint is specifically condemned in the Bible. I'm not saying that Biblical salvation cannot be understood in terms of mystical knowledge, gnoses, or awakening in the eastern sense. The heresy lies in believing that it MUST be understood in this way and any Christian who is not studying these gnostic concepts and having mystical experiences of gnoses is doing it wrong.

I used to think that way as well, and I have found it is a common delusion among psychedelic drug users. They think the path is all about secret knowledge that was revealed to them on psychedelics and your average mainstream christian is an ignorant fool with an infantile understanding of the scriptures.

But now that I have matured a bit, I see what a silly intolerant way of looking at things that is (and ironically it comes from people who like to study multiple religions and profess to believe in religious tolerance). In reality, the message of the Bible is quite simple and there is no need to be some kind of mystic, biblical scholar or occult expert to follow it.

The Bible teaches us the path of righteousness. It teaches us to  treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves, loving them as our brothers and sisters. It teaches us to refrain from immorality, building our virtues and avoiding every vice, that is keeping the commandments. It teaches us to have faith in God and to develop a relationship with him through prayer. It teaches the folly of self love and the love of creation over creator. It teaches us that true peace and happiness can be found through the complete surrender of oneself to God, our ultimate goal being learning how to serve Him and love him with our whole hearts rather than serving the desires of the flesh which is man's current, wretched condition. It teaches to lay up our treasure in heaven rather than on earth, worrying not about our own fate but seeking only to do what is just and charitable and pleasing to God and trusting that he will see to the rest.

I could go on, but that is basically it. Anyone who can do all of the above perfectly is already a saint.

So my question is the same as spiritualwarriors. what does gnosticism add? is there some special prayer that I can say as a gnostic that will somehow be more powerful than the way i pray currently? what can it possibly add?


Here is a passage from the book of Job which supports what I am trying to say:

Think how you have instructed many,
    how you have strengthened feeble hands.
4 Your words have supported those who stumbled;
    you have strengthened faltering knees.
5 But now trouble comes to you, and you are discouraged;
    it strikes you, and you are dismayed.
6 Should not your piety be your confidence
    and your blameless ways your hope?

7 “Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished?
    Where were the upright ever destroyed?
8 As I have observed, those who plow evil
    and those who sow trouble reap it.
9 At the breath of God they perish;
    at the blast of his anger they are no more.

as Job is lamenting his misfortune, his friend counsels him telling him that he should heed his own advice which he gave to others upon their misfortunes. Notice the emphases is on innocent of wrong doing, who being innocent has ever perished? its not telling people to gain some kind of secret gnosis, its telling them to live morally upright lives. That message is found throughout the entire Bible, we will be judged by how we lived our lives, not on our knowledge of metaphysics. St. paul advises us to keep our conscience clear before the Lord.

Quote:


In order for us to be freed from this Demiurge's entrapment, a divine teacher, usually Iesous, descends from our true home in the Pleroma [Fullness], and teaches us how to extricate ourselves, our essential nature, from it's identification with matter. It is Knowledge of a mystical order, called Gnosis in Greek, that results in our salvation, not some bestowal of grace by the metaphorical hand or nod of a capricious Deity.




This is pure heresy. Its not that your understanding is incorrect, salvation does entail us being freed from identification with matter "the truth shall set you free" but its complete heresy to argue that this salvation is different from the salvation by grace through faith taught by the church. The ego cannot free itself from indetification with matter, grace is necessary. Salvation is always through grace. It is by grace alone that you even possess the knowledge that there is such a thing as salvation.

You have done the exact same thing the church did, which was fall victim to the idea that their understanding of salvation was the only correct understanding and everyone with a different view had to be eliminated. There are countless ways to understand salvation and the view of the catholic and orthodox christian churches is just as true and correct as anyones. Salvation is by grace, through faith.


Edited by Deviate (09/16/13 05:52 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: Deviate]
    #18850540 - 09/16/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Here is a passage from the book of Job which supports what I am trying to say:

Think how you have instructed many,
    how you have strengthened feeble hands.
4 Your words have supported those who stumbled;
    you have strengthened faltering knees.
5 But now trouble comes to you, and you are discouraged;
    it strikes you, and you are dismayed.
6 Should not your piety be your confidence
    and your blameless ways your hope?

7 “Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished?
    Where were the upright ever destroyed?
8 As I have observed, those who plow evil
    and those who sow trouble reap it.
9 At the breath of God they perish;
    at the blast of his anger they are no more.

as Job is lamenting his misfortune, his friend counsels him telling him that he should heed his own advice which he gave to others upon their misfortunes. Notice the emphases is on innocent of wrong doing, who being innocent has ever perished? its not telling people to gain some kind of secret gnosis, its telling them to live morally upright lives.





lol, you must of missed the end of the story then (and the point of the Book of Job). When God shows up in the end of the book of Job, he tells Job that he was right (that he was suffering misfortune for no reason, even though he was righteous before God), and then God told the 3 theologians they were all wrong.

Job:42:7: And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: Deviate] * 2
    #18851155 - 09/16/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I am beginning to think markosthegnostic has lost his way and fallen into an almost entirely heretical belief system. Seems like in every post he is taking the view that the orthodox church has got it all wrong and that we need to take another look at the scriptures and completely revise our understanding of them into some kind of eastern philosophy of awakening.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but Awakening is not "eastern" in the sense that it belongs to India, Tibet, etc. Eastern Orthodox Hesychasm for example utilizes Yoga-like postures, breathing, visualizations, and mantras (repetitive prayer, the Prayer of the Heart). OF COURSE MY POSITION IS HERETICAL FROM AN ORTHODOX PERSPECTIVE! HELLO! I've been here since 1999 and you've JUST come to that conclusion? Congratulations! :cheers: My tag is MarkostheGnostic. My philosophical stance towards Jewish and Christian scriptures is a radical departure from whatever mainstream orthodox theological perspective you apparently adhere to. I've been saying that for 15 years on these forums.

YOU are considered by a  Gnostic typological model to be a Psychic Christian. Sola Fide. I would be considered to be a Pneumatic Christian, with an entirely different take. You 'believe' this take to be an error. A Gnostic take is that the Pneumatic has the more mature position and can take the "meat" of Reality whilst the Psychic is still taking "milk," comforting mythic stories that attribute spiritual growth to a superego-like Deity, a loving parent, who has already won 'salvation' for their 'child of God.' This is the position of almost every self-proclaimed Christian I've ever met. I have never seen anyone transformed by mere 'belief.' Programmed, as any cult can do yes, but truly transformed to the core, no, never. Belief is a mental content. It is not Being itself, the Logos, the "mind of Christ."

With Gnostics, it is much more a matter of "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" as Philippians 2:12 says. The 1 Thessalonian 5:17 "Pray without ceasing," is no longer understood merely as an Evagrian 'prayer of the mind,' or a Macarian 'prayer of the heart,' but of a continuous transpersonal center that has 'turned on' as a synthesis of mind-breath-heartbeat - an active Sacred Heart, a Heart Cave. Eastern Orthodoxy, I am assured by my old Greek Orthodox childhood friend, that unlike Catholic iconography which is deemed to gauche or gaudy to represent, is implied in Orthodox iconography. In Kabbalistic terms, one has crossed the 'Veil of Paroketh' to Tiphereth, The Sun, The Heart, on the glyph of the Kabbalistic Tree. One has stopped identifying so much with the earthly body-personality, and has come to experience oneself more as 'a spirit having a human experience' than 'a human having a spiritual experience.' One is metaphorically no longer on Earth looking at the Sun, one realizes that one is essentially the Sun looking at the appendage of one's body-personality. And in this metaphor, the Sun is the Son. Iesous identified with the Logos more than with his earthly body-personality He is the paradigmatic, mythic example, but not a unique specie of historical human being. That is the Christ mythos.

The scriptures may reflect the living experience of Gnosis, but living experience is the center of Reality, not the written word. Perhaps unlike yourself, I had experiences that I only later saw reflected in scriptures, but for me, experience preceded anything I ever read. Hopefully I have explained my position. You view it as erroneous, which is just a recapitulation of lots of previous history. I wonder how violent you might have be towards those of Gnostic bent if you lived in the theocracy of the ancient persecutors of Gnostics. Those with profound doubts have always tried to suppress the reminders of their doubts. I, on the other hand have no problem with the average Christian going about with a head full of stories and beliefs that myth was actually historical. This dichotomy between Pneumatic and Psychic exists in every religion on Earth throughout history. I do not adhere to any of the myths, biblical OR Gnostic.

I express myself here, but I have no expectation that anyone will adopt my view. Chances are, those who are in agreement with me, developed the way I did. Gnostics have traditionally been very tolerant of other's takes. Live and let live. Judgement is not your job or mine. I do not speak ill of your faith any more than I'd tell a child or an elderly person that they are wrong. Better a millstone be hung around my neck and me tossed into the sea. Their understanding is just what it is, just as your's is your's and mine is mine. So ask yourself where your self-righteous criticism has its origins.

In the future, perhaps less middle school talking ABOUT me, and more adult talking TO me would be indicative of a courtesy befitting an adult.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSpiritualWarrior
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 437
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18851848 - 09/16/13 11:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I am beginning to think markosthegnostic has lost his way and fallen into an almost entirely heretical belief system. Seems like in every post he is taking the view that the orthodox church has got it all wrong and that we need to take another look at the scriptures and completely revise our understanding of them into some kind of eastern philosophy of awakening.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but Awakening is not "eastern" in the sense that it belongs to India, Tibet, etc. Eastern Orthodox Hesychasm for example utilizes Yoga-like postures, breathing, visualizations, and mantras (repetitive prayer, the Prayer of the Heart). OF COURSE MY POSITION IS HERETICAL FROM AN ORTHODOX PERSPECTIVE! HELLO! I've been here since 1999 and you've JUST come to that conclusion? Congratulations! :cheers: My tag is MarkostheGnostic. My philosophical stance towards Jewish and Christian scriptures is a radical departure from whatever mainstream orthodox theological perspective you apparently adhere to. I've been saying that for 15 years on these forums.

YOU are considered by a  Gnostic typological model to be a Psychic Christian. Sola Fide. I would be considered to be a Pneumatic Christian, with an entirely different take. You 'believe' this take to be an error. A Gnostic take is that the Pneumatic has the more mature position and can take the "meat" of Reality whilst the Psychic is still taking "milk," comforting mythic stories that attribute spiritual growth to a superego-like Deity, a loving parent, who has already won 'salvation' for their 'child of God.' This is the position of almost every self-proclaimed Christian I've ever met. I have never seen anyone transformed by mere 'belief.' Programmed, as any cult can do yes, but truly transformed to the core, no, never. Belief is a mental content. It is not Being itself, the Logos, the "mind of Christ."

With Gnostics, it is much more a matter of "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" as Philippians 2:12 says. The 1 Thessalonian 5:17 "Pray without ceasing," is no longer understood merely as an Evagrian 'prayer of the mind,' or a Macarian 'prayer of the heart,' but of a continuous transpersonal center that has 'turned on' as a synthesis of mind-breath-heartbeat - an active Sacred Heart, a Heart Cave. Eastern Orthodoxy, I am assured by my old Greek Orthodox childhood friend, that unlike Catholic iconography which is deemed to gauche or gaudy to represent, is implied in Orthodox iconography. In Kabbalistic terms, one has crossed the 'Veil of Paroketh' to Tiphereth, The Sun, The Heart, on the glyph of the Kabbalistic Tree. One has stopped identifying so much with the earthly body-personality, and has come to experience oneself more as 'a spirit having a human experience' than 'a human having a spiritual experience.' One is metaphorically no longer on Earth looking at the Sun, one realizes that one is essentially the Sun looking at the appendage of one's body-personality. And in this metaphor, the Sun is the Son. Iesous identified with the Logos more than with his earthly body-personality He is the paradigmatic, mythic example, but not a unique specie of historical human being. That is the Christ mythos.

The scriptures may reflect the living experience of Gnosis, but living experience is the center of Reality, not the written word. Perhaps unlike yourself, I had experiences that I only later saw reflected in scriptures, but for me, experience preceded anything I ever read. Hopefully I have explained my position. You view it as erroneous, which is just a recapitulation of lots of previous history. I wonder how violent you might have be towards those of Gnostic bent if you lived in the theocracy of the ancient persecutors of Gnostics. Those with profound doubts have always tried to suppress the reminders of their doubts. I, on the other hand have no problem with the average Christian going about with a head full of stories and beliefs that myth was actually historical. This dichotomy between Pneumatic and Psychic exists in every religion on Earth throughout history. I do not adhere to any of the myths, biblical OR Gnostic.

I express myself here, but I have no expectation that anyone will adopt my view. Chances are, those who are in agreement with me, developed the way I did. Gnostics have traditionally been very tolerant of other's takes. Live and let live. Judgement is not your job or mine. I do not speak ill of your faith any more than I'd tell a child or an elderly person that they are wrong. Better a millstone be hung around my neck and me tossed into the sea. Their understanding is just what it is, just as your's is your's and mine is mine. So ask yourself where your self-righteous criticism has its origins.

In the future, perhaps less middle school talking ABOUT me, and more adult talking TO me would be indicative of a courtesy befitting an adult.




He was talking about Orthodox as "correct" Christianity not Eastern Orthodoxy. By the way Hesychasm has nothing to do with visualizations, you're dead wrong on that one. Your Greek Orthodox friend sure is stupid to have you as his friend and let you be confirmed in your heresy. Maybe you could learn from him that in reality the Orthodox Church has way more in common with your own beliefs than you actually think. However it does not go into the philosophical thought and theory that you do, the EOC is about mystical union with God through Christ and the Incarnation.

When mystical union with God takes place, then the person reaches theoria then he sees all of creation radiant with the presence of God. This is an activity of the grace of God and there are many other different effects of it. Point is, we are not "Psychic" like you said but very Pneumatic. We believe that we must have God's Spirit inside of us and it is only through the Sacraments such as Baptism, and Holy Eucharist (body and blood of Christ) that God is able to enter a person and confirm on him Holy Illumination and mystical union. And we teach that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that the "Prayer of the Heart" which you said was nothing really does turn into an active "Sacred Heart" as you said. The entire body in fact becomes radiant with the presence of God. So it is "Pneumatic" as well as "Psychic". We believe in the dynamic energies of God and a dynamic union with God through the grace of the Holy Spirit. We receive God's Energies because of Jesus Christ, Prayer, and the Sacraments.

We believe that spirit must become united with matter in order for God to fully dwell inside us. As an Incarnational Faith, we believe Jesus was God and Man, Matter and Spirit, and He symbolizes as well as fulfills that union by his miracles and Passion and Resurrection.
Without this affirmation the faith comes to nothing.

The Eastern Orthodox tradition is like Christian Gnosticism but it is not the kind of Gnosticism which you ascribe to. It is Gnostic because of its deep spiritual traditions and teachings about God and the Holy Spirit, and that you can read a state of Holy Illumination and Theoria (Union with God). Something other Faiths don't teach because they did not have a monastic tradition.

I think you lost the way when you passed the EOC up. You didn't see what was already there, that the traditions and monastic teachings really were that of the Truth. Have you ever read St. Symeon the New Theologian?

Eastern Orthodoxy is different than other forms of Christianity. It is the true Gnostic Christianity which you missed out on. By the way Eastern Orthodoxy is only one ancient sect of Orthodox Christianity, there also are the Egyptian Orthodox, the Syrian, the Armenian etc. These places are where many great monastics came from who taught about God.



Edited by SpiritualWarrior (09/16/13 11:40 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18851990 - 09/16/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I am beginning to think markosthegnostic has lost his way and fallen into an almost entirely heretical belief system. Seems like in every post he is taking the view that the orthodox church has got it all wrong and that we need to take another look at the scriptures and completely revise our understanding of them into some kind of eastern philosophy of awakening.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but Awakening is not "eastern" in the sense that it belongs to India, Tibet, etc. Eastern Orthodox Hesychasm for example utilizes Yoga-like postures, breathing, visualizations, and mantras (repetitive prayer, the Prayer of the Heart). OF COURSE MY POSITION IS HERETICAL FROM AN ORTHODOX PERSPECTIVE! HELLO! I've been here since 1999 and you've JUST come to that conclusion? Congratulations! :cheers: My tag is MarkostheGnostic. My philosophical stance towards Jewish and Christian scriptures is a radical departure from whatever mainstream orthodox theological perspective you apparently adhere to. I've been saying that for 15 years on these forums.




This is where you and I disagree. I disagree that your interpretation is a departure from mine. Where is the departure?

Quote:


YOU are considered by a  Gnostic typological model to be a Psychic Christian. Sola Fide. I would be considered to be a Pneumatic Christian, with an entirely different take. You 'believe' this take to be an error. A Gnostic take is that the Pneumatic has the more mature position and can take the "meat" of Reality whilst the Psychic is still taking "milk," comforting mythic stories that attribute spiritual growth to a superego-like Deity, a loving parent, who has already won 'salvation' for their 'child of God.' This is the position of almost every self-proclaimed Christian I've ever met. I have never seen anyone transformed by mere 'belief.' Programmed, as any cult can do yes, but truly transformed to the core, no, never. Belief is a mental content. It is not Being itself, the Logos, the "mind of Christ."




Of course belief is not the same thing as Being itself, I never said it was. Again, this is where I feel like the disagreement arises. You hold onto to a belief that your brand of spirituality is more mature than mine.

Quote:


With Gnostics, it is much more a matter of "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" as Philippians 2:12 says. The 1 Thessalonian 5:17 "Pray without ceasing," is no longer understood merely as an Evagrian 'prayer of the mind,' or a Macarian 'prayer of the heart,' but of a continuous transpersonal center that has 'turned on' as a synthesis of mind-breath-heartbeat - an active Sacred Heart, a Heart Cave. Eastern Orthodoxy, I am assured by my old Greek Orthodox childhood friend, that unlike Catholic iconography which is deemed to gauche or gaudy to represent, is implied in Orthodox iconography. In Kabbalistic terms, one has crossed the 'Veil of Paroketh' to Tiphereth, The Sun, The Heart, on the glyph of the Kabbalistic Tree. One has stopped identifying so much with the earthly body-personality, and has come to experience oneself more as 'a spirit having a human experience' than 'a human having a spiritual experience.' One is metaphorically no longer on Earth looking at the Sun, one realizes that one is essentially the Sun looking at the appendage of one's body-personality. And in this metaphor, the Sun is the Son. Iesous identified with the Logos more than with his earthly body-personality He is the paradigmatic, mythic example, but not a unique specie of historical human being. That is the Christ mythos.




Yes, thats exactly what has happened to me. Ive stopped seeing myself as a human being having spiritual experiences but instead as a spiritual being looking through the eyes of a physical body.

Quote:


The scriptures may reflect the living experience of Gnosis, but living experience is the center of Reality, not the written word. Perhaps unlike yourself, I had experiences that I only later saw reflected in scriptures, but for me, experience preceded anything I ever read.




No, i am the same way. I grew up in a non religious household and could not make much sense of the Bible. I was an atheist until I began experimenting with entheogens. I then later saw my experiences relflected in scripture. However, i also found value in scripture in helping me to integrate my experiences and deepen my realizations.



Quote:



Hopefully I have explained my position. You view it as erroneous, which is just a recapitulation of lots of previous history. I wonder how violent you might have be towards those of Gnostic bent if you lived in the theocracy of the ancient persecutors of Gnostics. Those with profound doubts have always tried to suppress the reminders of their doubts. I, on the other hand have no problem with the average Christian going about with a head full of stories and beliefs that myth was actually historical. This dichotomy between Pneumatic and Psychic exists in every religion on Earth throughout history. I do not adhere to any of the myths, biblical OR Gnostic.




WHen you say you dont adhere to any of the myths what do you mean? you dont believe God spoke to Moses or that Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt or what? I dont know exactly what you mean.

Quote:


I express myself here, but I have no expectation that anyone will adopt my view. Chances are, those who are in agreement with me, developed the way I did. Gnostics have traditionally been very tolerant of other's takes. Live and let live. Judgement is not your job or mine. I do not speak ill of your faith any more than I'd tell a child or an elderly person that they are wrong. Better a millstone be hung around my neck and me tossed into the sea. Their understanding is just what it is, just as your's is your's and mine is mine. So ask yourself where your self-righteous criticism has its origins.

In the future, perhaps less middle school talking ABOUT me, and more adult talking TO me would be indicative of a courtesy befitting an adult.




I apologize for talking about you, I realized I had gotten carried away after I made that post. I think of the reasons I dont talk to you as often as I should is because sometimes I find your responses a bit too academic and difficult to understand and I dont want to look silly asking "what do you mean by this" all the time, so maybe it is an immature ego fear of looking silly that prevents me from addressing you directly. You clearly have far more knowledge than I possess.

Anyway, from what you wrote here we seem to be in complete agreement. Where I disagree with you, is that your views are a radical departure from mine. THey seem the same to me.

It is certainly true that a lot of mainstream christians today are largely unaware of the deeper (or even the more basic) spiritual truths expressed in the Bible on anything deeper than a mere belief level. I agree with you on that. Where I think i disagree is that gnosticism poses any sort of solution to that. Are you saying that if these people would study gnosticism they would suddenly wake up and have the experience of having the mind of Christ? In my experience, this is not the case. Thats why I say it happens by grace.

you say that by saying salvation happens by grace, i am attributing salvation to a superego like deity and that that is somehow an inferior position. I dont understand why you think it is inferior. To me, it is just one way of describing what salvation is. Its not necessarily superior or inferior to other ways, its just one way.  The basic thing being communicated in the statement salvation is by grace, is that the ego cannot save itself. Salvation comes from something that lies beyond the ego. Do you disagree with this assertion? If not, why do you see it as inferior?


Edited by Deviate (09/17/13 12:02 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSpiritualWarrior
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 437
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
Re: What do you christians think of this video [Re: SpiritualWarrior]
    #18851991 - 09/16/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain who lived int he 1700's says that man is a Macrocosm, not a Microcosm. Meaning he is a Pneumatic not a Psychic. This is what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches about the subject it has much in common with what you believe in Markos.

This is from his "Spiritual Counsels" book.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Christianity........the "cop out" religion.
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
niteowl 12,990 80 06/10/07 04:05 PM
by MushroomTrip
* Altars Silversoul 2,167 15 10/04/06 06:48 PM
by Silversoul
* The Next Christianity spud 5,640 16 01/30/06 03:54 PM
by Gliders
* So, I guess I'm Christian now...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Silversoul 19,058 131 01/02/10 11:10 PM
by andrewss
* Christianity/Catholicism and the like, what's the deal? ToqomS 2,781 14 04/22/06 08:34 AM
by psyillyazul
* Pope reasserts other Christian denominations are not true churches
( 1 2 all )
fivepointer 4,911 23 06/10/10 11:19 AM
by p4kSouL
* how many real christians are there?
( 1 2 3 all )
secretmachine 6,888 59 03/02/20 03:08 AM
by Amanita86

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
6,117 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 16 queries.