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InvisibleGnuBobo
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I wonder about hell
    #4810054 - 10/16/05 02:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So, if you take a Judeo-Christian view of "god" or even a Buddhist or Hindu view of that Being, isn't the afterlife punishment a bit unfair?
And isn't that codified punishment in the next life antithetical and, thus, denying, any conception of a supremely benevolent godhead?

I got thinking on this tonight in terms of the monotheistic religious traditions, but it will carry over to other belief systems: Why would a being of love punish you for behavior in a sphere of existence that has no clear relation to the assumed following sphere of existence?

Especially a Supreme Being that gives us rational brains. Then said Supreme Being is near the worst incarnation of Descartes's idea of the malevolent cosmic joker.

Thoughts?


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4810057 - 10/16/05 02:57 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Award and Punishment/Heaven and Hell are archetypes for the mentally spiritual. The one who is truly in love with God has no need to desire reward or fear retribution. The company of God is the treasure.


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Unagipie]
    #4810059 - 10/16/05 02:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Funny how our world is determined by eccentric interpretations of that reward structure you're talking about.  :sad:


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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Invisibleblissedout
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4810082 - 10/16/05 03:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, it is sorta sad that we, as humans, need an opiate such as religion to make it in today's society. Spirituallity has many paths to the Center. That is my true belief. I have met many true spiritual beings from many different walks of life and they all knew the same truths.


--------------------



:murray:


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: blissedout]
    #4810097 - 10/16/05 03:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

There is no hell in the hebrew tradition,,, when you go to heaven, you are either close to god, or not close to god... all that stuff about fire and brimstone and satan came later...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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Invisibleblissedout
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4810100 - 10/16/05 03:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah. It was part..actually, it was probably the beginnings of the whole "fear" propaganda.

Such a shame.


--------------------



:murray:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4810164 - 10/16/05 05:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GnuBobo said:
So, if you take a Judeo-Christian view of "god" or even a Buddhist or Hindu view of that Being, isn't the afterlife punishment a bit unfair?
And isn't that codified punishment in the next life antithetical and, thus, denying, any conception of a supremely benevolent godhead?

I got thinking on this tonight in terms of the monotheistic religious traditions, but it will carry over to other belief systems: Why would a being of love punish you for behavior in a sphere of existence that has no clear relation to the assumed following sphere of existence?

Especially a Supreme Being that gives us rational brains. Then said Supreme Being is near the worst incarnation of Descartes's idea of the malevolent cosmic joker.

Thoughts?




Nobody is really being punished, god takes those who he prefers and puts them in his special place, the rest are not good enough to enter it. It's like having a VIP pass, you are not being punished when you are not being let backstage


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4810214 - 10/16/05 07:56 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

ive been told by some of the more rational christians that i know that hell is nothing more than just being in the absence of god....which makes me wonder sometimes, maybe we are already in hell? or at least pertgatory


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: wrestler_az]
    #4810248 - 10/16/05 08:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

That's a very interesting point, because from the Hindu perspective, one could argue that.

Hindus believe that after you die, you go to one of a few different realms, the highest being the unmanifest duality. You only go there if you have lead a selfless life of love and devotion. Otherwise, you will sooner or later be reincarnated into the wheel of maya (maya = illusion...the whole plane we live in is an illusion). So basically, you are reincarnated until you have become Self-realized or enlightened or reached samadhi or however you want to call it.

So you could really say that reincarnation is equivalent to hell.

Generally, I agree with the original poster though, the idea of a God who differentiates between rewards and punishments in this life or any other seems counter-intuitive.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4810381 - 10/16/05 10:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

There is a long history of the word and concept of Hell. We have a Nordic source of 'Hel' for example. Missionaries to Eskimos were not pleased to have the natives happy to hear about the undying flames of Hell!  :grin: But I digress.

Hebrew thought had 'Sheol,' a concept close to Greek Hades to the best of my recollection. It was not artistically described and remains an unarticulated and therefore a mostly unconscious content, like the 'shades' or 'shadow' existence in Greek myth. By New Testament times, the word "Gehenna" was used, but that was a metaphorical reference to the garbage dump where stinking, smoldering garbage was burned, vermin proliferated, etc. Nasty physical location. The author called Matthew was big on fire and 'brimstone' (sulphur).

The Hindus and the Buddhists have their respective hot and cold hells, but after one's karma has been exhausted, one finds oneself reincarnated or reborn respectively. Similarly, in Islam, Hell is not eternal. I have the least info on their concept but a one-time Muslim at The Shroomery used to post on this.

It may be that the Unmitigated White Light of Ultimate Reality - The Face of GOD, so-to-speak, may be experienced as either Heaven or Hell depending upon the condition of the soul undergoing death. Those who encounter the Clear Light in Tibetan Buddhism, for example, cringe in terror and seek refuge in any material body rather than lose identity in That Reality, and thus are reborn - sometimes in a less-than-human form. In Christian theology (if one can forget the Dante-esque images of The Inferno), the Light of GOD may be equally agonizing, depending upon one's identity at the time of death. Those who have identified themselves with Christ-Light-Love will merge into GOD like slipping into a warm bath. Those who remain identified as a mind-body will perish because the mind-body perishes. Consciousness has not been transferred to what the Bible calls the "spiritual body."

Speculation of course, but it is not the flaw of a Compassionate GOD who instructs us in life how to achieve Eternal Life, and through our own egocentricity and ignorance fail to do what is necessary. The metaphors about 'the way' being 'narrow' reminds me of a park ranger in Yellowstone Park who tells you to stay on the path and on the bridge, and if you decide not to believe him and step into a super-heated mud pot, it is not his lack of compassion that causes me a second degree burn - it is my fault.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4811659 - 10/16/05 04:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
god takes those who he prefers and puts them in his special place




i don't think i want to go in god's special place... a bad man once touched me in my special place, and i gotta tell ya, you wouldn't want to go there either :wink:


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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Offlinejcldragon
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Karma & Reincarnation [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4812231 - 10/16/05 06:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This is a Universe of Cause & Effect, a Law commonly known as Karma. By our actions & beliefs, we create effects, which eventually return to us in one form or another. This is not some judgement of God, but simply something we do to ourselves.

People reincarnate into conditions that match what they have created in the past. What they do with that, is up to them. When people truly get tired of barbarism, they will cease to be barbaric. That will do a lot towards pushing us towards civilization. Of course, we can speed up that process, by being as civilized as we can imagine, and encouraging others to do the same.

There is no reward or punishment in any of this. It is simply what we choose to do. And that is the cascade of creation.


--------------------
The Soul exists simultaneously throughout all of Time.
The Ego merely exists now.


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4819378 - 10/18/05 01:49 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It but a one-time Muslim at The Shroomery used to post on this.

It may be that the Unmitigated White Light of Ultimate Reality - The Face of GOD, so-to-speak, may be experienced as either Heaven or Hell depending upon the condition of the soul undergoing death. Those who encounter the Clear Light in Tibetan Buddhism, for example, cringe in terror and seek refuge in any material body rather than lose identity in That Reality, and thus are reborn - sometimes in a less-than-human form. In Christian theology (if one can forget the Dante-esque images of The Inferno), the Light of GOD may be equally agonizing, depending upon one's identity at the time of death. Those who have identified themselves with Christ-Light-Love will merge into GOD like slipping into a warm bath. Those who remain identified as a mind-body will perish because the mind-body perishes. Consciousness has not been transferred to what the Bible calls the "spiritual body."

Speculation of course, but it is not the flaw of a Compassionate GOD who instructs us in life how to achieve Eternal Life, and through our own egocentricity and ignorance fail to do what is necessary. The metaphors about 'the way' being 'narrow' reminds me of a park ranger in Yellowstone Park who tells you to stay on the path and on the bridge, and if you decide not to believe him and step into a super-heated mud pot, it is not his lack of compassion that causes me a second degree burn - it is my fault.





Yeah...I respect your knowledge base, Markos. 

I still don't understand why an infinitely benevolent God would seperate its creation from itself and say, "Left, Right, Yellow, Blue, Green, YEAAAAAAAH, TWSITER!  AWWWWWWW TWISTER!"

That's sadistic and sounds like, yet another, elaborate, stilted explanation for why we poop and we kill and why we feel guilt. 

Dunno. 

I just don't undertand the clinging to fantastical systems which are far more elaborate than the plot of "The Matrix" trilogy. 

But, here we go...an overwhelming majority of humans believe in some sort of system for the deathlife. 

Gnostics and mystics only bother me in the sense that they translate their subjective experiences into a "communion" and slick over all of the politics and dogma.

That's fine, but, gnostics/mystics don't tell me why they trust their sensory experiences to inform their belief system.

I mean, I can fall in love with a meth-head trailer park girl and love her with all of my heart and be so pure in that love for her...then if I get out of that chemical saturation in my brain, I might step back and say, "Whoa!  That chick's not that attractive and fucking stupid to boot!"

:shrug: 

I'd like to hear more on this topic, though.  I've dabbled in religion and philosophy, but never been an intense student of religion.  I got a bad taste in my mouth after reading my books for an "Enlightenment" course. 

Prof was totally cool, tho.  :smile:


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4819782 - 10/18/05 07:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

if hell is so painful, why does god kill people off who are going to it? he should just let them live so they have time to change their minds.

like, someone who flip-flops between belief and unbelief a number of times during their life- if they happen to die while believing or not, it's totally arbitrary.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4819848 - 10/18/05 08:34 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This thread keeps bringing me thoughts back to the creation of freewill. If one believes there is a God who created all. Then the perfection of freewill must be understood. There is no punishment friends, there is only the lack of love. We have the freewill to live in the good or the bad and that is the perfection of God. If God was to have just made everything honky dory then when do we get the chance to give ourselves to God ? Hell has been abused by politics in the church and turned into some nasty prison. It makes God sound sadistic. When in fact he is perfect as is everything that was created. You see in order for there to be choice there has to be two choices. For freewill to work there has to be choices.

So from my standpoint............ Hell is absence of Love in the here and the after. People who live a hateful or extremely selfish life tend to be torched souls and have a very hard time building loving relationships. Same with us and God. Same with heaven and hell. But people who choose to live for others and the values of love tend to be healthy and productive. They have the best of the world and the after life. God punishes no one.........He only gave us freewill. There can be no other way. Perfection dictates that we MUST have a choice to Love and build a relationship with God. There is no other way. Love or hate, heaven or hell..........the same.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4823403 - 10/18/05 11:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yo fucknuckle i don't get it about bad things happening to good people

i mean i think i get what you're saying about living for others being heaven n all, i mean i think i can see some truth in that

but what about when shitty things happen to people who love others? like their house gets burned down or their kids get eated by wild dogs? i mean, is free will always gonna be the source of evil??


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4823537 - 10/19/05 12:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I see your point. I have had some shitty stuff happen to me during some of my best times. It is what you do during the shitty times that matters

What about the kids that get eaten by dogs.............I don't know but I think that children are born loving people and are subject to heaven at death. Heaven being a subjective word here.

The bad stuff that happens to good people isn't really bad unless you allow it to make you bad. what I mean is this. If my daughter was eaten by dogs I can deal with it in the best way possible and still live in love or I can make myself crazed with hate toward God and everyone around me.

It is to easy to use the bad things in life to say God is sadistic or a prankster. It is much harder to understand that love and living in love is far beone the things around us. It is the values of Love that allow us to live through the bad things and see the world for what it really is. A place to learn to love and grow towards God. As with all things that are righteous.........It is always harder to do what is right than to do what is wrong or easy. Same with understanding why God allows such crap to happen. It is that Love can only happen with freewill and freewill allows bad things to happen.

You see it is how we react to the bad things not the bad things that matters. God only cares about the intent of the heart. Same for us we should only care about the intent of God's heart. His intent is not to have us live in a world filled with crap. His intent is to allow us the freewill to love him and understand his intent.


Is freewill always gonna be the source of Evil ?? Yes it has to be

It is a perfect system my friend a perfect way to allow Love

But as I said already. Great understanding, great Love they take great work. As with all things Good there is a price to be paid.

Many people want God to make this a happy little world. Selfish of them isn't it. Where is there love in that ? Only thinking of themselves !! God has given us this place to learn about his ways. To become creatures of love so we may understand him in person. So that we may live in,with, near him after we leave here.

OK I said enough


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4823785 - 10/19/05 02:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The state of gnostic/mystic/pneumatic is not one of beliefs, but Source-of-Moment experiences applied to moment-to-moment reality. It is to become like God for the sake of others, instead of attempting to charm God for one's one sake - which is the more fundamentalist-psychic approach to spirituality (or attempts to be spiritual). What comes from ecstatic mystical discorporation (gnosis) is an incorporation if 'knowledge in action' or compassion in action. The mystic becomes a faceless agent of the compassion of God, free from psychological archetypes and dogmas like Heaven/Hell and Reward/Punishment. And these are not a "set of beliefs" eithers. Carl Gustav Jung, who extensively explored metaphysics and the symbolism of archetypes was once asked whether he believed in God by a BBC reported. His subversive and timely response: "I don't need to believe, I know God exists." At a certain point in spiritual development, one realizes that salvation is a solitary persuit, not a guideline. Once one becomes pneumatic in their spiritual intuition, attempting to fathom existence without the divine reality is impossible. The relationship between God and psychological-typical 'believers' is blind and unshelled. The relationship between God and an unbeliever in post-mortem provision is simply non-existent. Some may believe in the divine, some may not - but the mystic is "emptied flesh-ego made divine-ego" so to speak. The mystic is the only middle-ground between the divine and the flesh.


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


Edited by Unagipie (10/19/05 03:02 AM)


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4823821 - 10/19/05 03:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In Christian theology (if one can forget the Dante-esque images of The Inferno), the Light of GOD may be equally agonizing, depending upon one's identity at the time of death. Those who have identified themselves with Christ-Light-Love will merge into GOD like slipping into a warm bath. Those who remain identified as a mind-body will perish because the mind-body perishes. Consciousness has not been transferred to what the Bible calls the "spiritual body."




I adore the way you worded that. Like slipping into a warm bath  :sun: Presto! Pleroma! The fullness of all! An eternity of a drenching, burning compassion - the more you try to love God, God Almighty loves you back 1000th fold. Born finally if you will. I trust in God to make my seconds or minutes of death to be met with gentle ease and comfort. After-all... existing without a physical body can be a bit 'new' to most of us


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Unagipie]
    #4823898 - 10/19/05 05:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unagipie said:
The state of gnostic/mystic/pneumatic is not one of beliefs, but Source-of-Moment experiences applied to moment-to-moment reality. It is to become like God for the sake of others, instead of attempting to charm God for one's one sake - which is the more fundamentalist-psychic approach to spirituality (or attempts to be spiritual). What comes from ecstatic mystical discorporation (gnosis) is an incorporation if 'knowledge in action' or compassion in action. The mystic becomes a faceless agent of the compassion of God, free from psychological archetypes and dogmas like Heaven/Hell and Reward/Punishment. And these are not a "set of beliefs" eithers. Carl Gustav Jung, who extensively explored metaphysics and the symbolism of archetypes was once asked whether he believed in God by a BBC reported. His subversive and timely response: "I don't need to believe, I know God exists." At a certain point in spiritual development, one realizes that salvation is a solitary persuit, not a guideline. Once one becomes pneumatic in their spiritual intuition, attempting to fathom existence without the divine reality is impossible. The relationship between God and psychological-typical 'believers' is blind and unshelled. The relationship between God and an unbeliever in post-mortem provision is simply non-existent. Some may believe in the divine, some may not - but the mystic is "emptied flesh-ego made divine-ego" so to speak. The mystic is the only middle-ground between the divine and the flesh.




Uhh...yup.
Well said!


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